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BaronOfStuff
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Dragonsbrethren said:

The gib health value is halved in the TC, because some players insisted it happened in the real PSX version. I've never seen it happen myself, either. Personally, I'm thinking this might be one of those false memories...


Trust me, it happens. You can gib a Zombieman with the base Fist, and Zombiemen can even gib each other. As for the player's Pistol/Shotguns/Chaingun gibbing them, it's sketchy (same regarding Chainsaw). Actually impossible if the PSX hitscan weapons used the same damage values as PC (5 - 15), but the other methods are not false memories at all.


MajorRawne said:
Finally, is the Knight/Baron behaviour changed to fight each other? Again, this is something I have never seen on the PSX but HAVE seen in the TC.

This is as it should be.

Old Post 01-28-14 20:29 #
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Ragnor
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Job said:
Speaking of music, I used the IDMUS cheat to change the track that is currently in Odyssey of Noises to use the track with the babies crying (which was used by default in PSX Final Doom's Ballistyx). Sorry, I don't know the title of the track. Either way, I found this to be a much better fit with the level and its title.


For me it can only be Warbled Logic, the cut track for Vesperas. City in hell? Lets play the track that sounds like demons inside radio equipment!

Old Post 01-28-14 22:09 #
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MajorRawne
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Gez, thinking back, it might actually have been the PC version where I did this.

I'm not saying that gibbing monsters with armour-piercing weapons doesn't happen, but it honestly must be rare, there were four of us who regularly played Doom on linked Playstations and a couple more who played it while they were with us (which was a lot of the time) and we never saw it over a period of years. It would be very interesting to see a video of gibbing with a fist for example, but the odds against catching it on video could be slim.

It seems like it must be somehow easier to gib enemies on the PSX with all weapons and not just explosives (BFG, rockets, barrels).

Anyway, I'm right into the 30s now with these Lost Levels, but here is more feedback taken from the perspective of a die-hard who wants to feel like he's 14 again, just got home from school and sitting at a brand new PSX.

---

Lost13: [No Data]
Music played during the map: Attack
This is the first Final Doom music used in a Lost Levels map. My GZDoom screws up the names, so I don't know the level name for this one. I found the gameplay to be boring, with too much wandering around, plus I had to cheat to get a key then just clipped around the map. Aside from an impressive array of Nightmare Spectres, this map held little interest for me. However, whoever converted it did an excellent job of making it feel like it came from Playstation Final Doom and the music was a good choice.

--

Lost14: Titan Manor
Music played during the map: Virgil
Feedback already provided. Hate the gameplay, LOVE the way this looks and sounds. One of the prettiest maps.

--

Lost15: Trapped on Titan
Music played during the map: Canyon
I love how this feels purely Playstation at the beginning, even though the PSX port seems to shy away from maps which have lots of outdoor buildings like Downtown and Trapped on Titan. Unfortunately, the gameplay of this map leaves me cold. Progression is extremely stilted and it's rarely obvious where to go or what to do next. I was quite literally cursing the original mapper as I wandered around pressing walls. The room with the lowering green pillars... ugh, I had to cheat before I realised how to get out. None of these, of course, are the fault of the PSX TC, although I would at least consider adding a couple of sneaky arrows made of light or that red liquid texture. My favourite area is the marble part at the end, very "PSX Doom", but the teleporter trap is purely a shitty thing to do. Also this map goes over the agreed monster limit, although this is one of the few PSX maps that actually gets good use out of the Revenants. I don't think Williams knew what to do with them after they'd crippled them. Revenants which deploy up close to the player are little more than cannon fodder. You often use them at long range with a reasonable view of the player, making them quite dangerous, even though I did see a Nightmare Spectre outrunning a Revenant missile that was chasing it.

--

Lost16: Bloodsea Keep
Music played during the map: Combine
Holy multiple orgasm, Batman! This map is like my childhood dreams of what a PSX map could be. The gameplay is intense, the health and ammo are somewhat limited, you'll be running round the blood sea with your chainsaw praying for a safe place and a supply cache... this is a brilliant, brilliant conversion of a brilliant map. Pity about the SHITTY CRUSHER TRAP around the super shotgun; I cannot believe an instant-death trap with virtually no warning at all would have made the cut, it would have made the map infamous in the wrong way. What makes it worse is that there seems to be an arrow on the ground pointing at the wall opposite the only exit - this grabbed my attention once I'd got the gun and there was no chance at all of survival. I respect this is in the original map and so had to be ported across, but Williams would have cut this. I don't recall any similar traps at all in Playstation Doom. By the way, the music was a good fit for the map, appropriate for a Lost Master Level.
**Here is a song for whoever converted this map:


--

Lost17: Mephisto's Mausoleum
Music played during the map: Catwalk
One of the most disturbing, unsettling music tracks is used to creepy effect. I was DREADING this map, its Youtube playthrough (PC version) seemed so confusing and boring. However, using only three different monster types, the bloke who converted this map made a tense, frightening affair which created that nightmarish, panicked feeling when you're up shit creek with a Baron holding the paddle. For some reason the gameplay seemed really simple although I did miss the exit which seems unannounced. I wasn't expecting such heavyweight opposition here. The Revenants really shone in this map - very rare for PSX Doom. A gripping conversion of a map I under-rated for years, although the faster Revenants on the PC version would probably just be annoying rather than fun.

--

Lost18: Black Tower
Music played during the map: Fistula
Already reviewed. Terrific visuals, definitely a memorable map, the music suits the bleak and forbidding atmosphere perfectly, but there are some obnoxious Baron traps and a weird catatonic Cacodemon.

--

Lost19: Express Elevator to Hell
Music played during the map: Central Processing
The music on this map has always reminded me of the industrial region of a destroyed city, so it fits this map really well, given that it is some kind of weird tech-base that looks like it was auditioning to be a zone in the Crystal Maze. The gameplay is odd compared to all other Doom maps but I did enjoy it and found the map challenging. Seeing a Mancubus lit up in red is something I won't forget. It seems like this would have run pretty well on the Playstation

--

Lost20: Power Control
Music played during the map: Canyon
Already reviewed. Turn the lights on, please!

--

Lost21: Hanger
Music played during the map: Nessus
Already reviewed. This is the second map in a row where darkened sectors hinder gameplay. However, the indoor areas are all bright grey, so the deeply unsettling music isn't exactly the best fit for the atmosphere. Keep the music but maybe SLIGHTLY darken the base interior and increase the light level of the courtyard.

Old Post 01-28-14 22:12 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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BaronOfStuff said:

Trust me, it happens. You can gib a Zombieman with the base Fist, and Zombiemen can even gib each other. As for the player's Pistol/Shotguns/Chaingun gibbing them, it's sketchy (same regarding Chainsaw). Actually impossible if the PSX hitscan weapons used the same damage values as PC (5 - 15), but the other methods are not false memories at all.


When Quasar asked for information the other night I ran MAP01 of Doom about ten times trying to gib any of the zombiemen with the pistol or fist and it never happened. Either I was having really bad luck, this is limited to certain versions of the game, or it doesn't happen.

Old Post 01-29-14 00:39 #
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Quasar
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If people are so convinced of the gibbing phenomenon, I think they ought to record PSX Doom until they actually get it to happen and put that on YouTube for proof. In the meanwhile, I'll look for the actual pistol code in the disassembly.

Old Post 01-29-14 01:17 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Dragonsbrethren said:

When Quasar asked for information the other night I ran MAP01 of Doom about ten times trying to gib any of the zombiemen with the pistol or fist and it never happened. Either I was having really bad luck, this is limited to certain versions of the game, or it doesn't happen.


Shoot 'em once first, then punch them. Should be easier to reach that -HP threshold. If you're using an emulator, savestates will save so much time in testing this.

Forget trying to gib with the Pistol though, something tells me that it's only Zombiemen that can manage this with hitscans.

Old Post 01-29-14 02:41 #
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Quasar
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Player pistol damage formula:
code:
jal P_Random ; rnd = P_Random(); ... andi $v0, 3 ; rnd &= 3; addiu $v0, 1 ; rnd += 1; ... sll $s2, $v0, 2 ; rnd <<= 2;


This is equivalent to ((P_Random()%4)+1)*4, so, it can do 4, 8, 12, or 16 damage. That is not enough to gib a Zombieman. Case closed. It's important to remember that damage of hitscan attacks is determined at the call to P_LineAttack, not in some global fashion. Players and Zombiemen do not use the same code to shoot bullets. It wasn't even the same damage amount in vanilla Doom. I'll try to find the zombieman's attack code next.

This shouldn't be too hard because most of the state table is identical to how it was in Jaguar Doom.

EDIT: I found the code to deal with transition to xdeathstate instead of deathstate and it is unaltered from vanilla/Jag:
code:
lw $v0, 0x58($s0) ; v0 = target->info; nop lw $v0, 8($v0) ; v0 = v0->spawnhealth; lw $v1, 0x68($s0) ; v1 = target->health; negu $v0, $v0 ; v0 = -v0; slt $v1, $v0 ; flag = (v1 < v0); beqz $v1, loc_8001A788 ; if(!flag) goto loc_8001A788; nop

Objects gib at -spawnhealth.

Last edited by Quasar on 01-29-14 at 15:08

Old Post 01-29-14 14:49 #
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pcorf
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pcorf said:


And this is why I am going to allow somebody else to make the changes to Express Elevator, Steel Works and Administration Center. Hopefully it is not the case.



Also found an easy way to add colored lighting to a Zdoom in Hexen format map if only I knew before. Thing type 9038 ColorSetter, place it in a sector and set the color = easy. If only I knew this before.

Old Post 01-29-14 15:44 #
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Gez
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Though it's still better to use sector properties in UDMF. Because this way, you can select a bunch of sectors, and apply the color to all at once, instead of plopping down dozens of things everywhere.

Old Post 01-29-14 16:17 #
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MajorRawne
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NOTE: The following was written a few days ago, before the Knight/Baron infighting debate.

---

Lost22: Open Season
Music played during the map: Pandemonium
I'm sorry, but oh my God. This is one nasty-looking map. My genuine regret goes out to whoever converted this, as they really didn't have much to work with: an ugly, primitive tech-base which is outclassed visually by everything Perseus uploads. There's a game-breaking error as you negotiate the catwalk above the lava towards the yellow key: a wall opens up, so when you drop down to investigate, you have to run over the Chaingunner's head to get into his pit then you can't get out and there is a strange HOM effect when you look back. Clipping out is the only exit. Also, for some reason a Baron and Knight started infighting when a Baron plasma attack struck the Knight. I don't think I've ever seen this before in Doom. Anyway, the gameplay of this map is basically a shotgun slaughter, fun but not pretty.

--

Lost23: Prison
Music played during the map: Deimos Lab
This is easily one of the best-playing maps so far, but not only that: this map, played using GZDoom settings which resemble the gritty, lower-framerate PSX, gave me that weird buz I haven't felt for so long, that buzz I used to get when coming home from school in the afternoon and sticking Final Doom into the cd tray of my PSX. The difficulty takes a step up, but through good choice of monsters you manage to stick to the 26 point limit (just!). The map looks awesome, it's pure Playstation and I'm sure this would have run on those old machines.

--

Lost24: Metal
Music played during the map: Plant
Very moody and atmospheric, but almost too dark to see anything. I didn't love this map, it's 1994 in the worst possible sense, but you do a good job of its makeover and the music is good.

--

Lost25: Stronghold
Music played during the map: Command Centre
I couldn't finish this map. I couldn't work out how to lower the silver bars. Therefore my review of this map is incomplete. You do a very good job of making this look like an earlier map in the Doom mapset, but the difficulty is much higher than the original Doom. It's a fun blast, very atmospheric, but my progress tended to stammer until finally there was nowhere left to go.

--

Lost26: Redemption
Music played during the map: Combine
I've never heard of this map, not sure why I don't recall it from playing PC Final Doom all those years ago, so I must have somehow skipped it. The opening area reeks of PSX Final Doom - that's a VERY good thing. In fact, the whole map fits the mood, especially with FDoom music. Really enjoyed playing this one, I didn't spot any glaring flaws, although the yellow bar texture is not properly aligned on the side facing into the corridor (I'm assuming this is faithful to the original map). It's clever how the Cacodemons can come into the main room through those windows in the walls, this is something I haven't seen done before. This map must surely come close to the monster limit.

Old Post 01-29-14 18:29 #
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MajorRawne
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Lost27: Storage Facility
Music played during the map: Phobos Lab
Not every Doom mapper chooses to give their map an interesting name, but this is definitely the kind of Doom map I wanted to see when I was 14 years old. Its layout is basically a crate maze with two chainsaws, but you do get a light-amp for the only dark area of the map. Fun to play, definitely PSX in style, delivering a map that I'd have enjoyed back in the day.

Lost28: Steelworks
Music played during the map: Deimos Lab
Creepy and superbly atmospheric, with clanging crushers that played on my nerves and made me suspect some kind of ambush. Gameplaywise, you're forced through a lot of damaging nukage with just a single radsuit so foreknowledge rewards the player while noobs who've never seen this map, such as myself (how did I miss or forget these maps??), get punished. The use of coloured lighting is good and creates a hellish atmosphere. Unfortunately my game glitched when I resurrected after being crushed, so I wasn't able to use the teleporter after the red switch. Good map, excellent conversion.

Lost29: Dead Zone
Music played during the map: Hell Beneath
A tough, heavily cramped techbase which I played a couple of weeks ago. The action is frantic at times and the map has been converted well. I'll play this one again at some point and offer more feedback.

Lost30: Mill
Music played during the map: Phobos Anomaly
While it sounds as boring as shit, this is a highly atmospheric tech base which is one of the best-looking of its kind. I do wonder if the whole area near the yellow key might have been simplified slightly but then again I don't know enough about the Playstation's limits since so many of the original maps are sparsely decorated, or just empty chambers. When you go past the invincibility sphere into the lift room, if you go up the lifts facing the entrance into the rooms with the Chaingunners and Imps, you get stuck and have to clip out unless you are lucky enough to find the one leading to the yellow key. I got a bit bored and frustrated here, not entirely the map's fault, so when I "accidentally" ran into the two Barons I quit.

--

*** GENERAL PLAY CRITICISM: I don't really know if I should mention this seen as these are ports of original maps, but there are a lot of maps which force you to single-shotgun your way through loads of Barons, Revenants, Hell Knights and Nightmare Spectres. the PSX Ultimate Doom maps do provide the super shotty (at least I think they do, it's been so long!) so maybe some of these could too? It gets pretty tedious when it feels like you're facing your third map in a row where you've got to kill two or more Barons with a shotgun and chaingun. ***

*** FEEDBACK ABOUT THE MUSIC Throughout the Lost Levels TC, we tend to hear the same music tracks being used again and again, sometimes very close together, while the Final Doom soundtrack seems to be under-used. It is only natural for people to want the best (moodiest, scariest, most atmospheric) music in their maps, but it is always nice when someone thinks outside the box and uses a track that nobody else has picked. I'll be making a tally of how many times each track is used. I'm at Lost40 so far and have finished all the secret maps too, and out of the 50+ maps I've reviewed, there are still some music tracks left unused. Maybe it would have been better for authors to suggest which music their maps used, but the project leader would set an order for the music to avoid the situation we've got here. ***

Last edited by MajorRawne on 02-02-14 at 18:00

Old Post 02-02-14 17:55 #
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Eris Falling
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For UD, SSG only appears in The Marshes

Old Post 02-02-14 18:01 #
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Piper Maru
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You guys should consult Aubrey Hodges for this project.

Old Post 02-02-14 18:09 #
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MajorRawne
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Eris Falling said:
For UD, SSG only appears in The Marshes

Ah thanks, I know Doom 2 monsters appear, just wasn't sure about the super shotgun.

Pipermaru - some of us raised this earlier, there is now some legal weirdness around using Hodges' soundtrack. Nobody really took this discussion anywhere. I would say (with no legal background at all) that since the original Doom and Final Doom used this music, and the music has been floating around the internet for over a decade with no legal challenge, it would not be a breach of copyright to use these tracks in the Lost Levels project. The TC crew are not creating a commercial project and it's not like people don't know Aubrey Hodges made the music. All they're doing is converting existing maps into the PSX style. Actually, I'm not sure about the legality of that either, but I can't see John Romero or Aubrey Hodges screwing the community.

Look at it this way: the only people who will buy Hodges' PSX soundtrack are Doom die-hards. If he alienates these people, he will alienate the only ones who are going to buy his stuff. And people who love it and/or love Hodges will buy it anyway to show appreciation. I probably will buy them.

Old Post 02-02-14 20:33 #
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vinnie245
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I'm fairly certain Hodges has already posted that were fine to use his music, he was even offering to make custom music for some wads so he isn't gonna make a fuss about it.

Old Post 02-02-14 20:53 #
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Piper Maru
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I think you guys misunderstood my post. I wasn't implying he would have a problem with you folks using his music in your projects, I'm pretty sure he's all for it. I was reading through his thread awhile back, he's seems pretty cool about it. What I actually meant was you guys should consult him on how he chose which tracks went to which levels seeing as many of the same music tracks are being used repeatedly in this project thus far. There's a wide range from PSX Doom to PSX Final Doom, surely there's enough to tracks to cover this project? Sorry for the confusion guys!

Old Post 02-02-14 21:04 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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The music's mostly my fault. For anyone who didn't list a track (or whose listing I missed), I basically just went down the list of tracks for each map, without paying much attention to repeats on maps where a track was set or the secret maps. Music is definitely non-final, and suggestions are definitely recommended since honestly almost all the PSX Doom music blends together to me.

As for how tracks were picked, Aubrey's stated before that he basically picked a track that fit the map and also fit in RAM. It was yet another limitation.

Old Post 02-02-14 21:21 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Dragonsbrethren said:
It was yet another limitation.

Jesus fucking Christ!

Old Post 02-02-14 22:02 #
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Ragnor
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I still have a mostly complete alternate track listing that makes use of the bonus tracks if you guys want it.

Old Post 02-02-14 22:23 #
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MajorRawne
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I always thought the music was randomly assigned in the original game.

Dragonsbrethren, in my summary of each map, I finish with general comments/feedback and I do talk throughout the later reviews about the music. By the time we get to map 40, some tracks have been used 3 or 4 times, others haven't been used.

If you want, I will go through each map and suggest a replacement music track. I have done this for a couple of maps where the music really doesn't suit it.

This will take me a couple of days. I'm averaging eight map reviews a day and it's starting to wear on me.

Old Post 02-02-14 22:29 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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BaronOfStuff said:

Jesus fucking Christ!


Game development in the 90s was all about making the most of what you had. And console development still is, really, just not to the same extremes. It's all about balancing your resource use, dedicating enough to every aspect to make the best game possible. I mean, the Jaguar version even cut music during levels entirely.

If you're concerned with this project, it's one I don't really intend on enforcing.


MajorRawne said:
Dragonsbrethren, in my summary of each map, I finish with general comments/feedback and I do talk throughout the later reviews about the music. By the time we get to map 40, some tracks have been used 3 or 4 times, others haven't been used.

If you want, I will go through each map and suggest a replacement music track. I have done this for a couple of maps where the music really doesn't suit it.

This will take me a couple of days. I'm averaging eight map reviews a day and it's starting to wear on me.


Yep, been reading the feedback and appreciate it, even if I haven't really said much. Don't feel like you need to do more than you already are unless you want to, though. I'll give the music a second pass before I post the next version.

Old Post 02-02-14 23:26 #
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Megamur
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Oh, and for the record, I'm currently not involved in this project, so anyone who was scared off by my extreme playtest critiquing can come back now. :)

Old Post 02-03-14 01:07 #
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MajorRawne
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Baron, remember Doom was one of the first games out for the PSX (IIRC). Back then, people were still trying to get their heads round the PSX. It's the same whenever a new console comes out; games seem like they were created for the previous generation. Look how atrocious Die Hard Trilogy looks compared to some of the later shooters (although Die Hard, like Doom, played a LOT better than it looked).

I've stated my case a few time in the map reviews I'm working on, but there seem to be several factors in PSX Doom:

1. The PSX was new hardware: Apparently Sony make it difficult for people to develop stuff to run on their hardware so that Sony doesn't suddenly lose control to a horde of mongols. People were used to cartridge-based games with gameplay following the rules and expectations of the 1980s.

2. Limited time: Get that game on the shelves, take advantage of its popularity while it lasts!

3. Based on an inferior port: Let's play some Jag... but without music, and with stripped-down levels. (Apparently PSX Doom 2 maps were not as heavily "interfered with" - i.e. simplified or chopped down - as the Ultimate Doom maps, since the UDoom maps were ripped straight from the Jag port?)

3. Some levels were too complicated: This is the now notorious PSX Ram limit, among (presumably) other things.

4. Some levels were shit: It seems no coincidence that the super-hard chaingun spam maps didn't make the cut. If every PSX player was asked whether or not they actually miss all the cut maps, how many would say yes? PSX Doom is about the atmosphere, not about dying in a blizzard of chaingun fire just because two chaingunners stepped out of monster closets either side of you.

5. Some levels were copies: This especially seems the case in Plutonia, with maps that resembled Doom 2 maps or even other Plutonia maps. Also, I've noticed that gameplay can be quite repetitive between Plutonia maps. This is not me crusading against Plutonia BTW, just what I feel after playing the Lost Levels.

Old Post 02-03-14 15:30 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Dragonsbrethren said:

Stuff about 90's game development.



MajorRawne said:
other stuff about early PSX games

I know all that, it's just that I'd never even considered that something as small as the music would have that much of an impact on the available memory, given that it's comprised of low-bitrate sample sequences.

Unrelated: What happens when the disc isn't read correctly at load time.

Old Post 02-03-14 22:56 #
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mrthejoshmon
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BaronOfStuff said:
Unrelated: What happens when the disc isn't read correctly at load time.
My PSX version of Doom is royally fucked, it does this but EVEN worse, I have chainsaw-doors with lostsoul-zombies who have elevator-shotguns on top of music that plays randomly pitched game audio.

Safe to say it is quite unusable, it doesn't even load past the third level, I am tempted to see what horrors await in the later levels though (with help from the level codes I still have from years ago).

Old Post 02-03-14 23:21 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Oh, I had some other weird shit too but couldn't be bothered to record/upload most of it. It was entertaining for a while but then it just started to piss me off. Turns out that pressing the lid down and putting something heavy on top kept things working as intended.

Old Post 02-03-14 23:47 #
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Ragnor
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That was fucked up. Reminded me of that NES Godzilla thing in a way.

Old Post 02-03-14 23:52 #
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MajorRawne
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Ah, the NES Godzilla Creepypasta. I only read that a couple of days ago after someone mentioned it in the comments of an AVGN video. Absolutely amazing, even if it makes no apology for going far beyond what the NES is capable of. "Creepypasta" - why do internet memes have such embarrassingly stupid names? Is there some kind of rule?

Right, here are the next batch of level reviews:

EDIT: Fuck Notepad's formatting. Also, I have got some eyebrow-raising feedback about the music used in the TC, including something I was shocked about. All that kind of feedback will be provided once the level reviews are complete.

EDIT 2: Sorry, I'm not sure why some of the music names disappeared.

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Lost31: Shipping/Respawning
Music played during the map: Deimos Anomaly
Overall, this level seems more complex than anything we've seen on the PSX with pretty detailed building interiors and scrolling textures giving the impression of a conveyor belt carrying goods. It does, however, feel like a natural progression that maybe Williams would have been up to had there been more time/budget/whatever they were clearly lacking for Final Doom. Gameplay is not to my taste with a pointless teleporter trap and a semi-hidden key, but people will generally enjoy this map.

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Lost32: Central Processing
Music played during the map: Containment Area
When you go up the lift to the silver corridor with the yellow door at one end, the corridor with the armour bonuses on raised pedestals, if you go into the dark room where all the Demons come out, there are HOMs in the silver bars where middle textures appear to be missing. I've got to say, with this much silver, the map didn't really feel like PSX Doom to me; the exception is in the dark red area near the beginning, especially the smaller room with the dead body. I really, really liked this part. I know the silver is an issue with the original mapper's texture choice but it seems ugly. I also think the outdoor area is attractive but by this point the gameplay was starting to drag. The way the map keeps revealing new sections is interesting and well-implemented, but the map is really like two different maps melded into one, kind of like some of the bigger Alien Vendetta maps.

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Lost33: Administration Centre
Music played during the map: Hangar
I DO remember this from back in the day. The PSX makeover is well-implemented, giving the map more atmosphere than the original, so even people jaded by the original map might get something out of it. It's quite hard as well and you need to know where you're going.

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Lost34: Habitat
Music played during the map: Deimos Lab
In many ways this map is like Crater, with extensive areas which do not really require you to visit. I had no fething idea where to go and even resorted to clipping through the map to see if I'd missed something as I could only find yellow bars but had no yellow key. In fact, I didn't see any red or blue doors even though I found both keys (the red one in a secret, no less!). I found a secret BFG and rocket launcher that weren't necessary, especially as I found them after I'd killed everything else. Wall-humping was required to progress beyond the green-lit nukage room, but I simply walked past the demons and into a pit that was apparently the exit! Needless to say, I never got into the yellow key areas and clipped back through the map, wondering what went wrong with Habitat. I can just hear the AVGN saying "What the hell is up with THIS?"

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Lost35: Baron's Den
Music played during the map: Hell Gate
Amazingly, we're 35 maps in and this is the first time the Hell Gate music has been used. I remember this mostly from The Inmost Dens, which was one of the best exploration maps from the PSX port. I remember one time, running through the cold water following my co-op buddy and listening to the music, having an irrational fear of getting left behind in that lonely, eerie map. It was one of the best moments playing Doom and it's often the first thing I think about when it comes to Doom. I was very excited about playing Baron's Den as it sounds like a badass version of Baron's Lair; some of the maps that were left out of PSX Final Doom sound or play too similarly to maps that made the cut, or exclusive maps (like Dis is a poor man's Redemption Denied). There was also the childhood wish to encounter more Barons in PSX Final Doom, even though Barons are frequently just annoying ammo soaks. While the map is undoubtedly one of the more memorable-looking, with several large areas, you go miles over the monster limit. I found progression through the map to be somewhat stilted as you need to run through the same areas several times and I was slightly confused about where to go next. The wide room with a room containing Imps and barrels off to one side reminds me of PSX Doom's Hell Gate map. I wonder if the ideas used in Baron's Den were condensed down to using rooms like these. To be honest, while this is an impressive-looking map, I preferred the PSX Hell Gate.

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Lost36: Mount Pain
Music played during the map: Command Centre
This map has been mentioned as some kind of glaring omission that PSX Doomers were unfortunate not to get. Well, I'm one of those who thought Mount Erebus sucked, so let's see if this map is similar in more than just its name. To start with, this map is a rather painful corridor shooter with a (rare) crusher trap at the beginning, with just enough warning to prevent the player becoming wider than he is tall. I actually surprised myself by enjoying this map a lot for its first half. Yeah it's a hitscan/corridor fest, but it's bloody entertaining. It's like the Underhalls in Doom 2, which when you think about it is actually a slaughter map. It's sheer fun shotgunning lots of minions. The second half of the map, with all the lava and burning floors, turned into a pain in the arse that was much more difficult than anything in the Williams levels. While it captures the feel of the PC original, it doesn't really feel like a Playstation one. I died a lot of times in this map where I hardly died in any of the ones that came before it. It would have been a nightmare without being able to resurrect or use save games. The amount of lava seems co-op unfriendly and there were a number of very long corridors that I don't know whether or not the PSX would have run. This is another map which makes good use of Revenants. Also, you have a sector with a sky on the floor, which the PSX could not do. Overall, a good map marred by frustrations, particularly in the second half, but it stayed in the monster limit and I didn't notice any errors in the conversion.

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Lost37: River Styx
Music played during the map: Hell Keep
Wow, is it really the first time we've heard this music in the Lost Levels? The Deimos Lab theme has been used at least three times by now. This music track also plays in The Factory from PSX Doom 2. It's the searing, merciless sound of a burning sky and a sun that is boiling your brain. I lost heart with the map after the nightmarish crusher trap. The first half of the map involves running through tunnels that really are as dark as they looked on Youtube. The whole second half of the map reminded me of an Alien Vendetta map (if Anders Johnsen had turned all the lights off). Overall, an atmospheric map which definitely feels like a Williams port, but it doesn't play like the kind of map I like.

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Lost38: Well of Souls
Music played during the map: Pandemonium
I remember seeing the PC version of this map last year. This is a really faithful conversion. The interior sections of the map are too dark though. I had to cheat to get through the red door as I was sick of running in circles; either I missed something obvious, or I missed it because it was too dark. There's the requisite shitty crusher trap which is starting to define my Plutonia experience. Sorry chaps, I have not been converted to Plutonia fandom by this point; that style of gameplay just doesn't do it for this Doomer.

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Lost39: Caged
Music played during the map: Unholy Cathedral
This is the first time we've heard this music in the Lost Levels. I seem to remember thinking this map was miles too harsh on the PC when played on co-op mode and it might well be the map that sealed my hatred of Plutonia. I will refrain from mentioning this again as I think people get the picture by now. However, your PSX makeover of this map has made it more playable and the music suited its bleak atmosphere. The map is generally too dark, so I didn't feel guilty about using the resurrection cheat, as it balanced out the times when I was fumbling around trying to see the monsters. Apart from that, I enjoyed this map; consider another old ghost exorcised.

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Lost40: Caughtyard
Music played during the map: Phobos Lab (for a change)
It's no surprise this was excised from the PSX port given its obvious similarity to the Death Domain map (I've noticed that several cut maps seem to be reworked versions of maps that DID make the cut), not to mention its use of the Mancubus, a monster Williams apparently feared or loathed to use. I might do a count of how many maps from the original PSX Doom feature Mancubi. Everyone knows by now that Final Doom used them in only one map (Nessus). I've got an outdated version of GZDoom and the map will not run properly on it (nothing happens when you kill the monsters).

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Lost41: Realm
Music played during the map: Containment Area
Some of the corridor sections are very dark. The use of blue water with blue lighting deliver consistent and attarctive visuals.
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Lost42: Abbattoir
Music played during the map: Plant
This map, like several in the Lost Levels, uses the dead player decoration. I am not sure if this was used at all in any Williams PSX maps. Having grown up playing the PSX port, I find it a bit cheesy whenever I see a dead player in the map although this is something I'm getting used to and am using in my own maps, but I think they should be excluded in PSX Lost Level maps. In fact, apart from Wormhole, I struggle to think of any dead monster decorations at all from the Williams levels. For the gameplay: This is another map when I found exciting, although the battles are unbalanced: the first major battle against Imps and Revenants is relatively tough, while the next few setpieces are easy, then the final room with the brown nukage (which may be an inescapable pit?) is quite tough - especially if you fall in. Otherwise this does feel like a PSX Final Doom map which might have fit in somewhere around Subterra?

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Lost43: Hunted
Music played during the map: Toxin Refinery
I expected every map to either use the babies crying, "Tell me why" or the Toxin Refinery music. It's hard to believe we've gone so long since we heard the most beautiful of Aubrey Hodges' tracks in this TC. Unfortunately, it is totally ill-suited to a map which is supposed to be fearful and intense. Also, this is a map that does not translate into PSX Doom at all. It was built around the Arch-Vile. As formidable as the PSX Revenant can be (which came as a real shock to me, who has derided and ignored it for all these years), it is simply not the kind of monster that makes you scared to round the next corner. I would have gone balls-out and redesigned this map as a PSX exclusive with either the Cyberdemon or Spider Mastermind (a bit like Cat and Mouse from Doom 64). Alternatively, if Revenants must be used, it should be somewhere you can play to their only strength: their missiles. They're too slow to do anything else. This map is going to divide opinion like no other in the Lost Levels, and IMO it needs a re-think.

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Lost44: Speed
Music played during the map: Command Control
The eerie music noted for being the track to the final PSX Doom map, "Redemption Denied", really suits the beginning of this map. It's an eerie, desolate landscape that would feel at home around Sever the Wicked or Unruly Evil. The Nightmare Spectres are trapped in their cubby-holes (with the switches). Ammo balance was very poor, with the player having too little ammo at times, then too much (a repeated issue in this stretch of maps). However this is a good, exciting map which converts to PSX style really well.

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Lost45: The Crypt
Music played during the map: Phobos Anomaly
This one's only short, but memorable, due to some frightening teleporting monster traps that had me on the edge of my seat. Again, this one translates extremely well to PSX style with good use of coloured lighting to accompany the dire sky. A decent variety of monsters was also used. The red key at the beginning is totally redundant as there was no need at all for the doors to be red - there seems to be some kind of desperation to include at least two keys in most maps, especially the official ones.

Last edited by MajorRawne on 02-05-14 at 17:35

Old Post 02-05-14 17:13 #
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Eris Falling
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Posts: 3078
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It's not GZDoom that's the problem with Caughtyard, the "MAP07Special" in the MAPINFO lump was accidentally lost during compilation IIRC
Also, I really can't remember, but I'm pretty sure the music was Phobos Lab.

Old Post 02-05-14 17:19 #
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MajorRawne
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Lost46: Genesis
Music played during the map: Toxin Refinery
After such a long absence from the TC, the beautiful, lonely Toxin Refinery theme makes its second appearance in four maps. In this case the music DOES suit the map, as it possesses a forlorn beauty. Whoever converted it made a very good job - however the monster variety has the same effect as drinking espresso (it draws your gums back over your teeth and makes your eyes pop out). In other words, the PSX RAM might disagree with your choices, so maybe change the Barons for Knights? (I actually think the Barons work well in this map. They don't bring anything worthwhile to most maps.) I was dodging like a fething master while playing this. If I'd made a video of it, the Indiana Jones theme would have come on halfway through as I chucked myself around like an acrobat, dodging fireballs while partially invisible. I feel like more of a man for playing this map. That said, Genesis highlights a problem: inconsistency in damaging floors. In The Crypt and Speed, you can run on blood and nukage without taking damage, but it suddenly hurts you here. That's always a pisser.

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Lost47: The Twilight
Music played during the map: Toxin Refinery
Musical deja vu; this is the second consecutive map which plays this musicYou know how I said an earlier map made me hate Plutonia? It wasn't that one, it was this fething abomination from the Devil's trousers. I was firmly of the opinion that this map sucks balls for most of its duration, not for the visuals, but for the obnoxious gameplay. Ammo and health right where you need to be, leading to waste, especially of medikits; medikits stacked on top of one another, which has never bothered me but it bugs some players since they don't know how much health is available; a total Chaingunner spam fest. The Revenant which pops up when you hit a switch gets stuck and can't attack; the lift he's standing on can't raise until he's dead. I found a megasphere at the end of the map, right after I found a soulsphere and green armour. The teleporting Revenants are challenging, but this map pisses me off so much it felt obnoxious. However the music suited the map well and it looked very PSX.
RECOMMENDED MUSIC: I would recommend changing the music to Paradox because that track hasn't been used yet (after 47 maps!) and it lends a creepy, menacing atmosphere which would give the map a "fear factor" that it's currently lacking.

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Lost48: The Omen
Music played during the map: Command Centre
Short and very painful, a PSX slaughtermap indeed. The "I hate Revenants!" video on Youtube is aptly named - they're a nightmare on a map like this. When you get the plasma rifle on a narrow bridge, the Revenant missiles are extremely hard to dodge and in fact I simply ran into one to save time. This is probably one of the toughest maps despite its short length. I felt the lift room near the end might have been a bit much, though with no specifics on how detailed a room could be or how many moving sectors can be visible at once, this one is Dragonsbrethren's call (as project leader). I would say that crushers and moving floors/ceilings, except for lifts, are relatively rare in PSX Doom, possibly for technical reasons. This is one of the few maps where green nukage is not harmful.
RECOMMENDED MUSIC: Limbo - strong, assertive music for a tough map - this track hasn't been used at all yet! However, map 52, Slayer, does use this music, in which case I'd shift Omen to an earlier position in the Lost Levels.

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Lost49: Compound
Music played during this map: Phobos Lab
This music yet again, one of my least favourite tracks, but I cannot deny that it lends an atmosphere to city-themed maps. Inconsistency from map Lost48 comes straight away with harmful nukage, though again this is just the whim of the original mappers. It's a short nukage map which might have been a filler map to hit their tight deadline, but it plays well and feels like a varied bunch of monsters are used. There's a secret so generous I would almost call it mandatory, except the map is so
easy to beat with the super shotgun that I never fired a rocket or plasma cell. In fact I can't even remember picking the relevant weapons up.
RECOMMENDED MUSIC: Attack - would create a more desolate atmosphere and this would combine with the visuals to give a proper "Doomed" feeling. Amazingly, this excellent piece of music has only been used on map Lost13!

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Lost50: Neurosphere
Music played during the map: Hell Gate
You really nailed it with this one. Bravo! Basically, this is a slightly more hellish and much more violent version of The Inmost Dens, which is one of my all-time favourite PSX levels. The difficulty of the opening fight, along with the Plutonia-standard Chaingunner spam, put this up with (or most likely, above) the harder maps of PSX Final Doom. The map looks terrific and the fact you chose the same music as the Inmost Dens shows the similarities weren't lost on you. This is one map that felt almost too short, I enjoyed it that much. Definitely one of the best conversions and one of the more exciting maps.

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Lost51: NME
Music played during the map: Minos
Already reviewed. One of the first Lost Levels I played. Definitely feels like it could have been viable on the PSX and avoids cheapening the Cyberdemon by replacing it with Barons. Seriously, who thought sticking a Cyberdemon in a small room looking out over a courtyard was a way to generate fear of such a creature?

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Lost52: Slayer
Music played during the map: Limbo
Ah, an under-used music track to accompany a level that is basically a rock-hard version of the O of Destruction. I'll be honest, this is a fething nightmare of a map. You're constantly surrounded by all manner of monsters and I had to use the resurrect cheat a number of times. This kind of map rubs me up the wrong way. However - when playing this with an open mind, I admit it is relentless and exciting, a real challenge, and it makes effective use of Pain Elementals (as you know, a lot of maps don't). Unfortunately it uses a lot of Pain Elementals, which can make the map a chore and drain your ammo. This is miles too hard for the PSX, although as some kind of next evolutionary step in gameplay, it is possible that further Doom releases would have continued to ramp the difficulty up like this.

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Lost53: Impossible Mission
Music played during the map: Phobos Lab
I wonder why Phobos Lab is one of the more popular tracks in the Lost Levels? It's my least favourite of Aubrey Hodges' work. What kind of atmosphere is it supposed to convey? Anyway, this map is once again a fething nightmare designed to drive you round the bend. It's one of those switch hunts where you have to run around the level looking to see what the switches did. Gameplay is savage, reminiscent of early Hell Revealed 2 maps. The ammo balance is very poor and I was down to my chaingun against a legion of Barons and Nightmare Spectres. There is a lot of ammunition in secret caches and one of them comes right before the exit. Better late than never? No - I'd go as far as to say that the person who originally designed this map was a lovemaking masturbator and id Software must have been desperate to get Final Doom onto the shelves. BUT - while IMO it's a crap map, it certainly goes down fighting. It evokes that genuine sense of dread when you're running from Barons with only a chaingun to defend you. It's a feeling I often got when playing the horribly unbalanced, but extraordinarily exciting co-op mode back in the day. It's a feeling one can only describe as a sense of Doom.

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Lost54: Tombstone
Music played during the map: Nessus
The map looks good, with lots of coloured lighting, which is always nice to see. You exceed the monster allowance though; I'd consider replacing the Cacodemons with Knights or Nightmare Spectres.

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Lost55: The Final Frontier
Music played during the map: Hell Gate
The monster types exceed the available points in this map. Hard to say which monster needs to go since they are all put to devious use. Probably the Pain Elementals would need to be sacrificed as that would also get rid of the Lost Souls. You may be able to stay within the points allowance by simply binning the Baron and replacing him with a Knight instead. This is a very challenging map and I died loads of times.
RECOMMENDED MUSIC: The music seems too mellow for a map so vicious; try Virgil. While Virgil is aimed at being scary rather than exhilarating, it will certainly help to finish off the trapped, forbidding, hellish atmosphere, and it's been almost completely overlooked, only appearing once in the early teens of the Lost Levels.

Old Post 02-05-14 17:33 #
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