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Da Werecat
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Quaker540 said:
What you are doing now is entirely immature.

Cute, you're playing the "behave yourself" card.


I got your point when you said it the first five times.

So that's why you denied everything I said, accusing me in being inattentive. It makes perfect sense now.


For over 2 months with my last Sub-Mod I did I'm getting only aggressive feedback which I got used to it :)

I got a different impression, but whatever.


Shitting on what?

On your own mod.

Old Post 05-06-14 20:08 #
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Quaker540
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Da Werecat said:
On your own mod.


I don't have any mod (Yet). I'm too lazy to do one so I'm messing around with Sub-Mods :)

Still, I don't know how you've thought that. If what you are trying to say is "Add-On" or "Sub-Mod", then OK.

Last edited by Quaker540 on 05-07-14 at 17:57

Old Post 05-06-14 23:33 #
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Evolution
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Shit, we're late to the 1.4 update party here... Gonna add the new version to TNS servers starting next Thursday. Very nice work here guys.

Old Post 06-05-14 22:18 #
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Tarnsman
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Revenant100 said:
Lost Soul Stuff


So why does the fixed version look worse in nearly every way? The fire is the biggest issue as it looks a lot more janky and jagged in the after shot but the level of polish and shape is also down in the after version.

Old Post 08-25-14 19:23 #
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Da Werecat
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The reasoning: the fire's level of crappiness matches that of the other frames and rotations. Therefore, it's the intended look, no doubt.

Old Post 08-25-14 19:56 #
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Tarnsman
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Wait so let me get this straight. In a project based around fixing sprites, you discovered that the rotational sprites of the lost soul look worse than the front facing sprite and instead of updating the rotational sprites to look better to match the front facing sprite (you know fixing them) you made the front facing sprite look worse. What is this I don't even.

Old Post 08-25-14 20:03 #
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Da Werecat
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Well, it wasn't precisely like I said, of course.

There's at least one problem with the final front facing idle sprites: the jaw and the horns are shivering for no apparent reason. The sprites from the older versions of the game don't have this problem, also some other details are more similar to the remaining frames. The mod author assumed that the old sprites are actually the newer, fixed ones, and they were erroneously replaced in one of the patches.

Personally, I would just fix the shivering and leave the flames and the face intact.

Old Post 08-25-14 20:28 #
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_bruce_
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This whole ordeal is pretty disappointing.
I hope someone more able bodied creates a proper version of such a fix.

Old Post 08-25-14 21:30 #
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Revenant100
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Tarnsman said:
Wait so let me get this straight. In a project based around fixing sprites, you discovered that the rotational sprites of the lost soul look worse than the front facing sprite and instead of updating the rotational sprites to look better to match the front facing sprite (you know fixing them) you made the front facing sprite look worse. What is this I don't even.
I didn't make any changes to the Lost Soul sprites. This is how they were always meant to be seen. Many sprites were broken in Doom's 1.666 patch, the Lost Soul's included. I simply reverted them back to the original intended graphics, fixing the errors that 1.666 introduced.

Old Post 08-26-14 05:43 #
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Linguica


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Revenant100 said:
I didn't make any changes to the Lost Soul sprites. This is how they were always meant to be seen. Many sprites were broken in Doom's 1.666 patch, the Lost Soul's included. I simply reverted them back to the original intended graphics, fixing the errors that 1.666 introduced.
I'm a little confused. Doom 1.666 introduced a new graphic for the front-facing Lost Soul sprites that didn't exist in any Doom version before that, right? So how is that accidental / broken / erroneous? Isn't it more likely that they purposely edited the front-facing Lost Soul sprite for some reason?

I really like the concept of this WAD, but I think it would be best to be conservative in terms of instances where it's not clear that something is truly an error. Obviously errant pixels are valid, and I believe apparently-misaligned sprite frames are too (although I can maybe see how someone could disagree in good faith), but deciding to revert a sprite to an older version because you believe it seems better is injecting a lot of personal opinion and discounting whatever rationale id might have had for making the change.

Doom v1.666 was released in the leadup to Doom 2, and among other things, changed Lost Souls to no longer count towards the kill percentage, presumably because of the imminent introduction of Pain Elementals in Doom 2. Personally, I think the most likely series of events is that during the development of Doom 2, probably while testing the Pain Elemental, an id artist decided that the Lost Souls looked a little too "stable" while floating towards the player and decided to make the sprite's edges move around a little more and add some lighting effects, so that it would "read" more as a kind of jittery, constantly moving creature.

I guess you could make an argument that the "new" Lost Soul is more of a Doom 2 creation, then, and it's not necessarily right for it to have been backported to Doom 1, but that's being awfully nitpicky, and suggesting that id Software basically lost the creative right to tweak their own game after its initial release.

It does make me think that ports focusing on accuracy and fidelity to the original game maybe ought to include a flag to use the "old" Lost Soul sprite when simulating an early version of Doom 1, though.

Old Post 08-26-14 06:02 #
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PSTrooper
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Tarnsman said:
Wait so let me get this straight. In a project based around fixing sprites, you discovered that the rotational sprites of the lost soul look worse than the front facing sprite and instead of updating the rotational sprites to look better to match the front facing sprite (you know fixing them) you made the front facing sprite look worse. What is this I don't even.


They were not made to look that way just for the sake of wild, out of control sprite fixing like I've seen in the past, let's be clear on that. The "after" sprites that he ended up using in this were from the pre-1.666 versions of Doom. Fortunately, the only sprites that seemed to be affected by that change are the two front sprites. Every other Lost Soul sprites in both the old and new versions of Doom and this mod are exactly the same. I had an old version of Doom handy to compare both versions sprites and make sure. Compare the other Lost Soul rotations to the before and after gif below and see which frontal frame looks more logical.

http://i.imgur.com/1ATv1TF.gif

http://i.imgur.com/kFNFnDA.gif

That being said, I do agree that the pre-1.666 version doesn't look as good as the 1.9 version. Pre-1.666's sprites are a bit too symmetrical in the facial area, which can be a bit off putting. (I'm sure that's why id changed it in the first place), but the 1.9 version has a jittering effect on the skull and horns, which doesn't look good either. So I've combined both versions together to create a version that will hopefully combine the positive features from both versions.

http://i.imgur.com/FoRN0zi.png

http://i.imgur.com/PjV5NaZ.gif

Version without flickering.

http://i.imgur.com/nJDz8G2.gif
http://i.imgur.com/ich21Zd.png

I have a pretty good idea on what I'm doing, being a graphic design major and working on my own sprite fixing project for Wolfenstein 3d.

Last edited by PSTrooper on 08-26-14 at 08:59

Old Post 08-26-14 06:43 #
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Revenant100
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Linguica said:
I'm a little confused. Doom 1.666 introduced a new graphic for the front-facing Lost Soul sprites that didn't exist in any Doom version before that, right? So how is that accidental / broken / erroneous? Isn't it more likely that they purposely edited the front-facing Lost Soul sprite for some reason?

While 1.666 did introduce some legitimate fixes, these were limited only to sprite offset issues (Imp front facing firing frames, Imp fireball explosion, etc). All actual art differences are demonstrable errors. The other affected party in the patch was the Baron of Hell's sprites. In 1.666, one frame from his beta iteration was inexplicably restored, resulting in flashing horns and hooves when they throw a fireball. Another error introduced was the Baron's legs inexplicably darkening during its death sequence. Because the shade of the darker legs matches that of the Hell Knight's, it can be reasonably surmised that Doom 2's reshuffling of the sprites was origin of these mistakes. This agrees with the general timing of Doom 2's development and release schedule.

Likewise, the Lost Soul's front-facing sprites changing in 1.666 appears to have been the result of a similar inadvertent reversion back to an earlier, unfinished version. It is clear the rest of the rotational flying frames and the front-facing attack frames of the Lost Soul were designed with the pre-1.666 flying front-facing sprites in mind, not only due to the style of the fire, but also because the A2A8 angle shows a clear arc in the brow rather than the 1.666 straight ridge. Of course, what is perhaps the clearest evidence that the 1.666 Lost Soul sprites are incorrect are the obvious jittering issues with the horns and jawline along with the inexplicably flickering face.


PSTrooper said:
(I'm sure that's why id changed it in the first place)
id did not make any conscious decision to modify the Lost Soul's front-facing sprites for 1.666. The change was an accident. They just reverted the sprites to an older, unfinished iteration.

Last edited by Revenant100 on 08-26-14 at 07:09

Old Post 08-26-14 06:51 #
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Linguica


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OK, but saying that the post-1.666 Lost Soul frames are from an older beta is just conjecture on your part, right? I mean, as of the press release beta in October 1993 they were still completely different:

http://i.imgur.com/AcYvDDc.png

Old Post 08-26-14 07:19 #
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Da Werecat
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Here's what I think happened with LS sprites in v1.666.

The sprites were so ugly that the artist was more dissatisfied with them than with anything else. Touching up the whole set was too time-consuming, especially considering that the game was already released and they were working on the sequel, so only the most important sprites were fixed - the frontal idle animation. Ugly pixel banding caused by symmetry was removed, the flames became more aesthetically pleasing, some lighting effects were added. Perhaps the artist screwed up the jaw and horns out of haste while applying these effects, or just thought that maintaining a stable shape wasn't as important as making the face more polished.


Revenant100 said:
inexplicably flickering face

Lighting effects.

Old Post 08-26-14 07:57 #
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Linguica


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Here's something strange. Jaguar Doom was based on Doom v1.2. Playstation Doom was based on Jaguar Doom, but Playstation Doom also included Doom 2 monsters and levels and so forth. Anyways:

http://i.imgur.com/kADZYBD.jpg

Pre-1.666 Lost Soul, in a console port based off of 1.2, but integrating code and assets from Doom 2 which would naturally have to be at least 1.666. What in the world, Playstation Doom?

Old Post 08-26-14 08:04 #
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PSTrooper
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Da Werecat said:
Lighting effects.


Exactly what I was thinking. Which is why I left it alone in my version. Although I do take into account the fact it might have been unintentional, as demonstrated by the Baron's flickering hooves, and if need be I can make a version without the flickering.

Edit: Looks like the other rotations don't have that flicker. I guess I have no choice now.

Last edited by PSTrooper on 08-26-14 at 09:03

Old Post 08-26-14 08:18 #
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Linguica


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And here's SNES Doom just for comparison's sake:

http://i.imgur.com/bYobRdz.jpg

So we have one console port that was released in fall 1995 which included Doom 2 but used the older Doom 1 version of the Lost Soul.

There is another console port that was released in fall 1995 that only included Doom 1 but used the newer Doom 2 version of the Lost Soul.

WTF?

Old Post 08-26-14 08:20 #
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PSTrooper
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Version without flickering. You were right, Revenant100. It does look better.

http://i.imgur.com/nJDz8G2.gif
http://i.imgur.com/ich21Zd.png

Old Post 08-26-14 08:48 #
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Revenant100
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Linguica said:
OK, but saying that the post-1.666 Lost Soul frames are from an older beta is just conjecture on your part, right? I mean, as of the press release beta in October 1993 they were still completely different:

http://i.imgur.com/AcYvDDc.png

It is indeed conjecture, but by no means an unreasonable assumption to make. Many of the monster (and the player) sprites changed in some way between the press release beta and the initial 1.1 release. It just so happens that the Lost Soul front-facing sprites in 1.666 were reverted to an unseen intervening stage that has never been seen in a complete form.


Da Werecat said:
The sprites were so ugly that the artist was more dissatisfied with them than with anything else. Touching up the whole set was too time-consuming, especially considering that the game was already released and they were working on the sequel, so only the most important sprites were fixed - the frontal idle animation.
It is clear that the correct pre-1.666 Lost Soul sprites were made after the erroneous 1.666 sprites, not vice versa. Specifically, the pre-1.666 sprites were based on the 1.666 B1 frame. You can determine this by overlaying said sprites over one another and seeing that the fire, horns, and jawline all match.


Da Werecat said:
Lighting effects.
This theory is not supported by any existing evidence as none of the other front-facing frames nor any of the rotational frames exhibit this flickering. Combined with the odd horns and jawline jittering (also not exhibited in any other frames), it's more than fair to assume beyond a reasonable doubt that this is indicative of an error.


Linguica said:
So we have one console port that was released in fall 1995 which included Doom 2 but used the older Doom 1 version of the Lost Soul.

There is another console port that was released in fall 1995 that only included Doom 1 but used the newer Doom 2 version of the Lost Soul.

WTF?

As far as the graphics goes, the Jaguar-family of Doom ports exists in a limbo state between the pre-1.666 and 1.666 versions of Doom. Although they possess several of the sprite errors introduced in 1.666, they also lack the sprite offset fixes introduced in the same patch.

Having been made completely independent of id, the SNES Doom port on the other hand was likely just based on 1.9.

Old Post 08-26-14 14:13 #
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dew
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Why would I want to play with a "fix" that "restores" that lame, ugly, symmetrical and thoroughly inferior version? The fixed pixels aren't worth that.

Old Post 08-26-14 14:39 #
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Da Werecat
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Revenant100 said:
It is clear that the correct pre-1.666 Lost Soul sprites were made after the erroneous 1.666 sprites, not vice versa. Specifically, the pre-1.666 sprites were based on the 1.666 B1 frame. You can determine this by overlaying said sprites over one another and seeing that the fire, horns, and jawline all match.

Doesn't prove anything. It really could be vice versa. Besides, simple logic forces us to ask ourselves: why would you screw up a perfectly adequate skull animation by mirroring the face, botching and simplifying the fire, et cetera? Why not just fix the jaw and the horns?


This theory is not supported by any existing evidence as none of the other front-facing frames nor any of the rotational frames exhibit this flickering.

The full version of my theory explains that.

But it doesn't really matter which sprites are newer. The point of fixing stuff is that you replace stuff with better stuff. The 1.666 sprites are better than pre-1.666 sprites, arguably even with the jittering, and no amount of overanalyzing is going to change that.


Combined with the odd horns and jawline jittering (also not exhibited in any other frames), it's more than fair to assume beyond a reasonable doubt that this is indicative of an error.

Some of the differences are flaws. Doesn't mean all of the differences are flaws.

Last edited by Da Werecat on 08-26-14 at 15:25

Old Post 08-26-14 15:00 #
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Revenant100
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dew said:
Why would I want to play with a "fix" that "restores" that lame, ugly, symmetrical and thoroughly inferior version?
This is a project centered entirely around fixes, not personal "enhancements" or "improvements." There are already numerous other mods created with those aims in mind, and as those have often shown, an improvement to one is a detriment to another. I took a decidedly different course, throwing subjectivity out the window and concentrating solely on what id sought to achieve in their creation process. The 1.666 Lost Soul sprites are a clear and unambiguous error, so they have been fixed accordingly.


Da Werecat said:
Doesn't prove anything. It really could be vice versa. Besides, simple logic forces us to ask ourselves: why would you screw up a perfectly adequate skull animation by mirroring the face, botching and simplifying the fire, et cetera? Why not just fix the jaw and the horns?
Since every single other art difference introduced in 1.666 is a demonstrable error, it is highly unlikely that this one instance which bears the same markings of an unintentional reversion to an earlier unfinished sprite revision is not an error as well.

Also going by "simple logic," it is similarly highly unlikely that one of id's artists going to the trouble of specifically updating only these two frames would also introduce quite blatant jittering and flickering errors into the art in the process.


But it doesn't really matter which version is the newer one. The point of fixing stuff is that you replace stuff with better stuff.
The goal of this project is to fix the errors in the sprites to the state in which id originally intended them. While we can't pretend to know exactly what id was thinking with every decision, I am confident that I have adhered to this goal in a strictly empirical and objective manner.


The 1.666 version is better than pre-1.666 version
This would be an example of an entirely subjective opinion. Whether or not one believes the 1.666 sprites are better than the original release versions is immaterial to what I set out to do. It is a demonstrable error, and one of the more clear-cut cases at that, so I have fixed the issue by reverting the graphics to what id always intended.

Old Post 08-26-14 15:58 #
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Da Werecat
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Revenant100 said:
Also going by "simple logic," it is similarly highly unlikely that one of id's artists going to the trouble of specifically updating only these two frames would also introduce quite blatant jittering and flickering errors into the art in the process.

Flickering seems to be an "error" quite similar to that green pistol highlight which we counterproductively discussed with another dude. As for jittering, the artist updated the A frame with more elegant shapes, but forgot to update the B frame, because he was already behind the schedule on revenant or something. Makes no less sense than intentional butchering of everything else. For all we know, they could've updated the whole LS set, but messed up the release wad without noticing. Which would make the "intended look" lost to the public.

I don't want to sound unpleasant, but in addition to being obsessed with details (nothing bad about it, as long as it's productive) it wouldn't hurt to have the ability to judge separate art assets on their own, instead of relying on circumstantial evidence and calling it objectivity.

Art is actually pretty subjective, it's hard to measure it with a ruler. But it's still possible to tell which asset is more polished and evolved, at least if you dabble yourself.

Old Post 08-26-14 17:45 #
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Linguica


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Well, there's one way to settle it

http://i.imgur.com/zRn77No.png
http://i.imgur.com/2MyIDhA.png

Old Post 08-26-14 20:12 #
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Joe667
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This is completely incredible, and I love almost all of the work! The only thing that niggles me is the Lost soul. The odd black pixels at the bottom of its jaw has been made permanent throughout the frames in your fixed version, but it gives it a squatter appearance somehow. I preferred "skinnier" skulls. Interesting how much of a difference tiny details can make...

And why did you take away the fire reflecting on its brow? :(

Also, the new fire top looks kinda ugly.

The other thing is that you made its nosehole one wide hole, like in real skulls. I only just realised while writing this that I actually prefer it this way.


D'oh.

Last edited by Joe667 on 08-26-14 at 20:46

Old Post 08-26-14 20:39 #
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PSTrooper
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Linguica said:
Well, there's one way to settle it

Lol. I was actually going to do the same thing, believe it or not. Except i was going to try to ask Adrian Carmack, if possible.

Joe667 said:
This is completely incredible, and I love almost all of the work! The only thing that niggles me is the Lost soul. The odd black pixels at the bottom of its jaw has been made permanent throughout the frames in your fixed version, but it gives it a squatter appearance somehow. I preferred "skinnier" skulls. Interesting how much of a difference tiny details can make...

And why did you take away the fire reflecting on its brow? :(

Also, the new fire top looks kinda ugly.

The other thing is that you made its nosehole one wide hole, like in real skulls. I only just realised while writing this that I actually prefer it this way.



PSTrooper said:
They were not made to look that way just for the sake of wild, out of control sprite fixing like I've seen in the past. The "after" sprites that he ended up using in this were from the pre-1.666 versions of Doom.

Last edited by PSTrooper on 08-26-14 at 20:59

Old Post 08-26-14 20:41 #
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fraggle
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Revenant100 said:
This is a project centered entirely around fixes, not personal "enhancements" or "improvements." There are already numerous other mods created with those aims in mind, and as those have often shown, an improvement to one is a detriment to another. I took a decidedly different course, throwing subjectivity out the window and concentrating solely on what id sought to achieve in their creation process.

This is a really laudable philosophy, thank you for making this project and for doing it in such a careful, limited and considered way.



This would be an example of an entirely subjective opinion. Whether or not one believes the 1.666 sprites are better than the original release versions is immaterial to what I set out to do. It is a demonstrable error, and one of the more clear-cut cases at that, so I have fixed the issue by reverting the graphics to what id always intended.

So given Romero's response, it seems pretty clear now that this was a deliberate change and not any kind of accident after all. I hope you'll do the right thing.

I think this bears some reflection though: things are not always so clearly "objective" or "subjective" as they might seem. I'd encourage you to be more cautious and conservative about these changes because some of these things that might seem like "demonstrable errors" might actually be deliberate artistic choices.

It might help to formulate some clear rules about how you'll make these decisions. For Chocolate Doom I've gone as far as writing an entire philosophy document to explain and reason about the decisions I make and the changes I accept.


PSTrooper said:

So I've combined both versions together to create a version that will hopefully combine the positive features from both versions.

http://i.imgur.com/PjV5NaZ.gif


This is really good work. I think your combined sprite is the best solution.

Clearly the sprites were supposed to be changed but I highly doubt the jittering jawline and horns were deliberate.

Old Post 08-26-14 22:00 #
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VGA
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OK so there was an attempt to improve that animation but it was done in a hurry obviously and sucks.Older version is legit and looks fine.

Old Post 08-27-14 01:00 #
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PSTrooper
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Here is a test map I made to safely view the Lost Soul sprites I made in action. It just looks much more seamless with the fixes when he's turning around, and I'm not just saying that.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/l...ostsoultest.wad

Please excuse my non-existent map making skills.

http://i.imgur.com/rvNmqwc.png

Old Post 08-27-14 01:56 #
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Jaxxoon R
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"What if it had a flat bottom?"

Honestly though, I think going with the tweaked 1.9 sprites are the best course of action. Someone should probably make a timeline image with all of the LS's sprites one after the other so it's be easier to understand.

Old Post 08-27-14 15:17 #
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