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Nevan
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Think I'll also weigh in here to also express my opinion on this project.

Personally I think it's a great project. The theme gives a different feel for me, and the monsters - yeah sure, I do agree that I've feel I've been there done that, but for me the theme of the wad and the music gives me a more new-ish feel, helping me enjoy this very much. Nice layouts, fun and great wad overall. :)

Old Post 01-05-13 23:37 #
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j4rio
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i'll answer this one - this wad is too easy for players of your caliber. on purpose. if you go back to mm1&2 (easier) or sc2 or av (sameish, tougher in the late parts) and play them the way you play these fda's, you'll yawn your way through as well. this is not a challenge-oriented wad, it's a traditional megawad.

you're a maxrunner and the maps do provide extra challenge if you try to maxrun them, i promise. :P the gameplay set-pieces will help you "recognize" maps with more ease. except don't demo it, the wad's not stable yet. sorry! :)


It's not about difficulty at all. Hell, I died rather frequently while playing. It's just, as I said, the feeling of familiarity throughout almost whole wad when I was going through it which I just can't help. When I retrospectively give it a thought, it feels like map progressions were similar, weapons you have to use are always similar, encounters ditto. Besides majority of skillsaw's maps, Ed's map and few late maps, I won't pinpoint anything withstanding from something that feels like could blend into one single massive map.

Maybe it's just me.

Old Post 01-05-13 23:42 #
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dew
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well, i've played these maps more than anyone on this planet and that's probably not going to change for a year at least, so consider me conditioned. i know the feeling you describe though - i get it when playing most of the traditional megawads ever made, heh. but if you ask me, the encyclopedic definition of "the same familiar thing over and over" would be either plutonia or memento moris. i still love them. :P

Old Post 01-05-13 23:55 #
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j4rio
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Now that I think about it, you have just made me realise why I'm not as much of a fan of moris. On the other hand - besides few notable mapping traits and overall dominant short map lenght, I'd say plutonia is the exact opposite of that definition. It's by two guys and it feels more diversive to me than for example tnt which is made by a whole team.

Old Post 01-06-13 00:35 #
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Pirx
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Memfis said:

That's exactly what turned me off heh, everything is so gray/brown/black (and rarely green), there is very little color contrast. I guess the texture pack was supposed to give the levels realistic look and this is exactly why realism is bad for most games IMO. After 12 or so maps I just couldn't take it anymore and quickly skimmed through the rest of the wad. None of the maps could hold my attention for more than a few minutes, with the exception of map23 which was rather nice until I died in the mancubus trap near the exit. (probably not a very fair battle) The gameplay isn't that hot too, dunno what I was thinking when I compared this wad to AV. (map23 is pretty fun though)




doom is a surreal place, the game didn't excel at building realistic maps. high res textures from real world images look bad when scaled down to the resolution and palette doom uses, the more subtle differences are hard to notice, and this makes gray/brown/black look much the same. perhaps i just had my plutonia overdose, so i welcomed the change (although i prefer its "ancient evil" theme to the Q2 theme generally)

gameplay wise, i would have preferred cybers in the "metal mothers" map since shoot spider, hide, reload wasn't very interesting. also, map 12 is huge, i lost my patience by the time i had all 3 keys and noclipped to the exit area since i couldn't find my way back.

Old Post 01-06-13 22:57 #
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DooM_RO
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I must confess, during the first 7 levels I was simply amazed what good ol' Doom II can do. However, the WAD suffers because of its length. It becomes repetitive and tedious, I expected more layout and color variation.

Old Post 01-06-13 23:01 #
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Csonicgo


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DooM_RO said:
I expected more layout and color variation.


There's only so much you can do within limits. Thanks to this project, we now know of a lump limit in vanilla doom. If layouts are an issue, Episode 2 should help you out.

Old Post 01-07-13 11:18 #
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Tarnsman
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Csonicgo said:


There's only so much you can do within limits.



Restricting a WAD to a single theme has nothing to do with limits. The lump limit is easily bypassed by simply creating an additional wad for the remaining textures for vanilla players. I'd give an example of where this is probably going to be needed, but then Essel would break my legs for spoilers.

Old Post 01-07-13 18:54 #
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Vader
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Pirx said:

gameplay wise, i would have preferred cybers in the "metal mothers" map since shoot spider, hide, reload wasn't very interesting.



The map name would have been pretty ridiculous if I used Cybies as the main "feature". But yeah, I agree that Spiderdemons can be a little tedious in general and map07 is no exception.
However, judging by a lot of demos I've seen (not only for this map) I think a lot of people make those Mastermind fights boring themselfes by using mostly the SSG!
Hell, in the fda j4rio posted, he even chaingunned a Spider to death while still having plently of rockets and cells... honestly, that would bore me as well :P

Old Post 01-07-13 19:26 #
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j4rio
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Rockets at boss monsters are a waste and cells are risky to use because you have to stay in possible damage exposure for a brief moment unless there is some cover provided from height.

Map 7 was rather nice as well btw.

Old Post 01-07-13 19:53 #
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dew
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j4rio said:
Rockets at boss monsters are a waste and cells are risky to use because you have to stay in possible damage exposure for a brief moment unless there is some cover provided from height.

that is unspeakable heresy. i disown you as a speedrunner. ssg'ing bossmonsters is a crime against fun.

Old Post 01-07-13 19:59 #
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printz
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Vader said:
But yeah, I agree that Spiderdemons can be a little tedious in general and map07 is no exception.
Actually I love every opportunity where the Spiderdemon is a good challenge. Fighting one with SSG isn't the easiest time, since it can easily lower your health if you become conceited.

I hate fighting Cyberdemons with the SSG, however. I'd rather use the missile weapons. Rockets are dangerous because you can mix them with his. And Plasma is dangerous because it tends to cover his rockets. To say nothing of BFG and having to stay in sight and in his shooting direction for a long enough time.

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Old Post 01-07-13 20:05 #
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TimeOfDeath
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I like fighting a cyber with ssg cuz you can hurt him more the closer you are to him.

Old Post 01-07-13 20:13 #
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j4rio
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dew said:

that is unspeakable heresy. i disown you as a speedrunner. ssg'ing bossmonsters is a crime against fun.



Eh, I think I can live with that. ;)

I openly admit I suck at FDAs. I have terrible perception and I'm not even talking about orientation. If I'm doing a somewhat serious FDA, my priority is not to die rather than blast through at the speed of light.
As a clarification, if I choose slow/tedious options, I don't base my opinion of map around them. I wouldn't mind pistoling boss monsters if there was a good setting set up for that.

Last edited by j4rio on 01-07-13 at 20:31

Old Post 01-07-13 20:15 #
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dew
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i often play scaredy and defensive in fdas too, but if i carry a fully charged plasma in my pants, i just can't withstand the thought of not whipping it out. *padum psh* well, i guess i could in some insane skepland-style world where you're always down to 5%, but not risking the prolonged peeks for a burst of plasma in a map giving me some slack? whyyy not? there are also all those regular spiders distracting the big ones, oh and the moms infight too, letting me go all ghostbusters with continuous spam. and invisibility. i just see so many options to speed the pace up...

Old Post 01-07-13 20:58 #
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kmxexii
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I think BTSXE1 is p cool and I had a lot of fun playing it fast and reckless. I'm gonna have so much fun playing E2 and E3 that my heart will probably explode before I get a chance to play Alien Vendetta.

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Old Post 01-07-13 23:06 #
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RjY
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map01: 99f's redesign broke the ssg trap monster teleporters (they worked in 99e). Raise to highest adjacent on sectors 787-794 (tag 5, floor height 0, containing zigzags of teleporter lines) makes them all immediately jump up to height 104 (read from sector 786, which has started to slowly lower to height 0, but hasn't started moving yet so it's still up at 104). Solutions include changing to lower to *lowest* adjacent, or untagging all the sectors except 786, preferably both.

map07: Line 1249 is a tagless type 9 S1 donut line special. This must be a typo or something. When I said this before I guess my post just got lost in all the excitement, but it really needs fixing because you can actually break the entire map by pressing the use key in the wrong place (in vanilla)

map20: Line 1151 is a type 75 WR close door special that blocks keypresses to the door immediately behind it (sector 162), making the system essentially a one-way loop which I don't believe is intentional (if it were, I assume the door would close and you'd get DSNOWAY when trying to open it - as it is set up right now it just looks like a ZDoomism). I suggest the line special be removed as trying to do a close door action on a manual door (the opposite door, sector 161) isn't any use (the only way a manual door won't just ignore the action is if it is inactive, which is only the case if it is already closed)

Old Post 01-08-13 16:40 #
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Urban Space Cowboy
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Tarnsman said:
The lump limit is easily bypassed by simply creating an additional wad for the remaining textures for vanilla players. I'd give an example of where this is probably going to be needed, but then Essel would break my legs for spoilers.
So instead of being cutesy and evasive, maybe you could give a fictionalized/generalized example that won't necessitate leg-breaking?

Old Post 01-08-13 21:44 #
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SteveD
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I'll preface these comments by saying I love these levels and the music that goes with them. I especially loved the music in Map01, which really set a nice yet somehow stealthily menacing mood.

Map01 has a few issues in Risen3D. In the area of Sectors 37, 41 and 65, a slice of sky texture appears. This is quite severe in Risen3D 2.2.09, less severe in 2.2.17. I also saw it in PRBoom-Plus 2.5.0.6. In both, it is the shape of a small triangle, thus answering to the description of Sector 65, which has a ceiling 2048 high with a sky texture, while the neighboring Sector 37 has a ceiling of 112 with a ceiling texture, and a floor of -1024 with a sky texture. I'm guessing these are trick or effect sectors, but I'm not sure what the trick is. This problem does not appear in Eternity or Chocolate Doom.

I'm guessing it's well known that the Map01 bridge over the nukage does not work at all in Risen3D, and shows a sky texture under the bridge in PRBoom-Plus. There are further bridge problems in Risen3D 2.2.17. The MIDFENC8 railings at linedefs 983, 1021, 1033 and 1057 do not appear, although the ZESSEL13 outer textures do. Not only is the MIDFENC8 invisible in Risen3D, but it also misaligns the METGRN03 textures on the columns in a weird way.

The last thing I noted with Map01 was the SSG secret/trap. I clipped into this area, grabbed the SSG, and then jumped onto the platforms on either side of the waterfall. I then jumped into the valley from the platforms, but by avoiding the waterfall, I did not cross the walking trigger that fired the trap. I had no idea there was a trap until I repeated the action and jumped over the waterfall instead. Even though this was designed with vanilla compatibility, and thus no jumping, it's worth remembering that some people will jump anyway. I see on the map that you considered this possibility by making most of the platform lines walking triggers with the same tag, but you forgot lines 3638, 3640, 3423 and 3424.

Thanks for these levels. They are real beauties, and I love the Quake2 look. I'm currently paused on Map06 after getting killed by an Archie. I'll resume playing as soon as I can. I also haven't encountered any issues in levels after Map01.

Old Post 01-11-13 01:09 #
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SteveD
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Actually, there's one more problem on the Map01 nukage bridge in Risen3D. Sector 162, which appears to be part of the bridge 3D effect, shows up on the bridge floor as a slice of sky texture. It's more prominent in Risen3D 2.2.17 than in 2.2.09. You can see the sky "slit" on both sides of the bridge.

Old Post 01-11-13 01:47 #
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Xaser
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Urban Space Cowboy said:
So instead of being cutesy and evasive, maybe you could give a fictionalized/generalized example that won't necessitate leg-breaking?

Uh? Evasive of what? He's literally just saying "Lump count wasn't/isn't an issue."

Old Post 01-11-13 03:55 #
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LigH
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Regarding Risen3D 2.2.0-18:

code:
UPDATES for v220-18 over v220-17: 1) Analysis code revised to support btsx_e1.wad (ver f) available from http://essel.spork-chan.net/wasd/btsx_e1_099f.zip NOTE: wasd is not a typo! If you already have ver e and want to continue using this for savegame reasons then v220-18 also supports this version.


When I read this, I started playing it ... now I am looking for the Cacowards voting thread. ;D

Old Post 01-11-13 08:02 #
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dew
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SteveD said:
and shows a sky texture under the bridge in PRBoom-Plus.

you mean glboom-plus, right? there are no issues with either the sky sectors or the mordeth bridge in software-rendered prboom-plus, at least not in the current version.

afaik all opengl ports struggle with the mordeth bridge effect, but gzdoom and risen3d made steps to walk around the issue. with up-to-date software it should only be broken in gl+.

the little sky floor/ceil sectors are essel's mapping trick to mess with visplanes. VPOs are btsx's greatest nightmare (except being the blandest boringest fastfood-doom wad in history, but that's a feature), but essel would have to explain how exactly (he thinks) that works. again - only broken in opengl ports, because they show the sky texture at floor level of the neighbouring sectors. you don't see the holes at all in sw-rendered engines.

Old Post 01-11-13 17:48 #
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Gez
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I've tried again with build f; and there still isn't any graphical glitch or oddity in MAP01 with GZDoom, around the bridge or elsewhere.

Only ways I could get glitches (showing the sky or weird HOMy messes) were by using the gameplay options to override MAPINFO settings and jumping or crouching. But if you're going to do that, you may also noclip into the void and see a lot more rendering glitches.

Old Post 01-11-13 19:21 #
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SteveD
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dew said:

you mean glboom-plus, right? there are no issues with either the sky sectors or the mordeth bridge in software-rendered prboom-plus, at least not in the current version.



Yep, you're right. My bad. I always use gl ports unless I'm forced to do otherwise. The bridge looked perfect in Eternity and Chocolate Doom, and as Gez said, in GZDoom as well, somewhat paradoxically, I guess. I might have to switch and start the set over in either GZDoom or Eternity.

Essel's visplane trick works perfectly in those other ports as well. How did he figure that one out?

Old Post 01-12-13 03:52 #
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esselfortium
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I don't think the sky-plane trick actually helped much if at all, to be honest. I started doing it years ago because sky visplanes are merged into one, but I didn't know yet that the extra visplanes caused from flat-bleeding setups were actually coming from stuff being split outside of the sector rather than from the lowered floor inside it. I don't want to mess with it now, though, and risk inadvertently adding more planes. D:

Old Post 01-12-13 03:57 #
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SteveD
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Thanks for the explanation. I have never gotten that deep into the Doom engine. My only knowledge of VPOs is that there's too many visible sectors and 2-sided lines, the latter more important than the former, I think. Might be wrong. So far as I can tell, you've created vacuum-cleaner sectors that suck all the excess visplanes into them, and the trick seems to work in Classic ports with software renderers, and, for some reason, GZDoom. My advice, claim victory and have a beer. ;)

Old Post 01-12-13 04:55 #
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joepallai
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This is really good; the atmsophere is fantastic and the fights are nicely paced. I love the sense of exploration here; however I just found a VPO on Map21 when in sector 389 facing SW. I'm using version 0.99f

Old Post 01-14-13 03:02 #
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NovaCoder
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Loving this MOD, even works on my 20 year old computer :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qR7dN4Jj_0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUfVeqEk-Nw

Old Post 01-15-13 07:53 #
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Pavera
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NovaCoder said:
Loving this MOD, even works on my 20 year old computer :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qR7dN4Jj_0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUfVeqEk-Nw



Saw this last night. Neat stuff!

Old Post 01-15-13 13:37 #
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