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mouldy
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15 - Karmacoma by Florian Helmberger

Great big square buildings, each containing mini self-contained challenges, felt a bit like an expansion on the doom 2 city map. There was a moderate amount of leg-work between each encounter, lots of secrets (many of them thoughtfully signposted) and a grand finale which you could watch through the window in relative safety. An enjoyable enough romp, if a little rectangular.

Thanks to zdoom's habit of marking exits in red on the automap I spotted the secret exit, which I could reach by strafe-running out a window - I'm not sure if that was the intended route... I'll probably do the secret maps tomorrrow.

Old Post 01-15-13 21:25 #
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Phobus
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With all of the other stuff I've done this evening (finishing my grind-mapping attempt and doing the /newstuff review for Frozen Time, being the main ones) I won't have time to do this today. I'll see about catching up tomorrow, if not later in the week/month.

Old Post 01-16-13 01:37 #
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Capellan
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Map16

Decent mostly-brick level. Bit squarish a lot of the time, and detail is of course sparse by modern standards, but all competently done. Some of the 'secrets' didn't seem very secret, though. One of them even has a switch on the wall! This contributed to my unusually high 54% secrets haul.

Some interesting use of shadows in the design.

Looking at it in Doombuilder, it seems like it should have felt bigger & longer than it did. Possibly this was just because the difficulty was fairly relaxed.

Old Post 01-16-13 07:27 #
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cannonball
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Map31 - Technology Base by Denis Möller
Okay map, lots of action, but missed a third of the kills which obviously lead to the secret exit in this map. Can be a bit cramped at times, looks fine though.
Map32 - The Hidden Slime Factory by Mark Klem
Okay map, some annoying backtracking and switches which do things miles away when you close in on the red key. Nothing overly annoying otherwise.
Map16 - Stoned by Kurt Schmid
Stone/brick level with some quirks and some neat traps. Plenty of secrets. It's an all right map, nothing special.

Last edited by cannonball on 01-16-13 at 13:53

Old Post 01-16-13 11:01 #
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General Rainbow Bacon
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Map 15 : Couldn't find the red door so quit after looking for like 5 minutes. Fun map except for the fact that the exit isn't clearly marked.

Old Post 01-16-13 15:18 #
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mouldy
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General Rainbow Bacon said:
Map 15 : Couldn't find the red door so quit after looking for like 5 minutes. Fun map except for the fact that the exit isn't clearly marked.


This had me stumped as well, til i discovered by accident that the bars blocking the exit are actually openable like a door. Not very intuitive

Old Post 01-16-13 17:16 #
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General Rainbow Bacon
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hmm. I tried them, but they didn't open. Maybe I was pressing the air in between them by mistake.

Old Post 01-16-13 17:29 #
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mouldy
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31 - Technology Base by Denis Möller

The first secret map - straight away its evident that this map has a split multiplayer layout, and for the most part it plays really well and looks good - better than a lot of other maps in this wad I have to say. However it transpires that half the map is inaccessible in single player mode, also the secret secret exit is only available in multiplayer as well. Which is a bummer if you are playing on your own, its a bit of a weird choice to make to limit your audience, but I can understand the idea of making the final secret map a special treat for the select few doom players who have mates. What I find more disappointing in this map is that the two halves are kept pretty much completely separate, which seems weird given that the emphasis here is on the multiplayer experience - you may as well be playing completely different maps other than looking at each other through the odd window here and there.

In the end I noclipped through a wall and did the other half as well. So there.

32 - The Hidden Slime Factory by Mark Klem

I enjoyed this one, a fast paced kill-a-thon through weird unpredictable corridors and transforming rooms with tons of secrets and cheeky traps. It was pretty easy, absolutely loads of health and not much fear of dying, but fun gunning through it all. Some unconventional texturing and design going on here.

Last edited by mouldy on 01-16-13 at 20:56

Old Post 01-16-13 20:26 #
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Capellan
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General Rainbow Bacon said:
hmm. I tried them, but they didn't open. Maybe I was pressing the air in between them by mistake.


Those bars are an odd decision. I pressed on them and found that they opened, so they didn't get me stuck, but I'm not sure why they are there at all. The purpose of a door is generally either to block you from progressing (if you need a key or a remote switch to open it) or as a tactical element (if you can just walk up and open it). Generally you'd only use bars like this if they were opened elsewhere (i.e. the first case), or if you wanted the player to have the option to engage things through the bars (the second). These seem to exist solely to make you open them.


mouldy said:
a bummer if you are playing on your own, its a bit of a weird choice to make to limit your audience


MM's "unique thing" was that it was co-op optimised. I remember scratching my head about that when it was released, since it was my experience that co-op was the least common mode of play. But perhaps that was part of the attraction - "let's try to encourage more co-op play". Or maybe TiC just played a lot of co-op together.

Old Post 01-16-13 20:55 #
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mouldy
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Capellan said:


Those bars are an odd decision. I pressed on them and found that they opened, so they didn't get me stuck, but I'm not sure why they are there at all. The purpose of a door is generally either to block you from progressing (if you need a key or a remote switch to open it) or as a tactical element (if you can just walk up and open it). Generally you'd only use bars like this if they were opened elsewhere (i.e. the first case), or if you wanted the player to have the option to engage things through the bars (the second). These seem to exist solely to make you open them.



There are a few things like this which make me wonder how much play testing they did in this wad, or if it was more the norm back then to have a few head-scratching moments. I seem to remember a few bits in the original games that weren't so intuitive, I wonder if its just how things have changed over the years - we are so used to everything being clearly signposted in games these days.

Old Post 01-16-13 21:27 #
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Phobus
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MAP15: Karmacoma: Very square (there's probably less than 40 non-orthogonal lines in the whole map) and very wide open, for the most part. With so much of the open space being devoid of monsters and most of the monsters being crammed into dense closets, it's a very stop-start engagement for the most part. I found 8/10 secrets, one of which was the secret exit (looking at the set up, they expect you to use rockets, but SR40 worked for me) and one of which was definitely wasted as it was a double-ding for the switch that crushes the monsters behind the door after the pool of lava. I know the invulnerability must be a secret, but I missed how you get it and didn't really need it in any case, given how most of the enemies behind that gates happily slaughter eachother.

If you rush into one or two encounters you'll get owned, but otherwise it's pretty easy and generally forgettable, I'd say. I suppose the big, boxy buildings must have been quite striking back in '96, but we're spoilt now.

Old Post 01-16-13 21:28 #
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Capellan
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mouldy said:
There are a few things like this which make me wonder how much play testing they did in this wad


I'm sure people played the levels and gave feedback about them. That certainly happened in MM2, anyway. But level editing was still new, and people made much stranger design choices all the time, back then. 15+ years later, we have much more developed expectations about these things.

If I made Demonfear today, it would be very different from the levels I made back in 1995/6. Better, I would hope :)

Old Post 01-16-13 21:50 #
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General Rainbow Bacon
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I think you should make another demonfear, it is a great megawad of bite sized maps.

Old Post 01-16-13 22:12 #
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Phobus
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mouldy said:

...we are so used to everything being clearly signposted in games these days.


In our Doom mods too. Half of the stuff people did in '90s .WADs would get complained about these days. I'm kind of glad there's authors like Eternal around who don't worry about that and actually make finding the switches a bit of an acheivement in itself, even if it does make for some difficult level progression.


MAP31: Technology Base: I took a similar tack to mouldy, but noclipped from the soulspehere secret after I realised those teleporter lines were rail-roading me onto the single player path, despite the fact that the secret was accessible from the part where the two paths converge. This map is very clearly a multiplayer map and actually is impossible to max on your own without cheating. I thought each half on it's own was a bit unexciting and sludgy (in the sense that the density of enemies just slows you down) and taken as a whole it's only a minor sense of exploration that made things worthwhile. The Shores of Hell came to mind fairly often, due to the textures used and the generally cramped and dingy environment.

I like the blue sky with the mountains though and am looking forwards to seeing more of that in the last 10 maps and MAP32.

MAP32: The Hidden Slime Factory: Majorly overstocked, to the point where I was functionally invincible. All 7 of the secrets seem to give you a soulsphere, megasphere or blue armour (or a radsuit that also helps extend your life) and then there's tons of health, armour and ammo laying around anyway. The map itself forms an interesting journey, with a few interesting changes in setting, loads of huge moving parts, plenty of flickering lights and a reasonable amount of enemies to kill.

I actually quite enjoyed this one. Surprisingly good detail in the actual Hidden Slime Factory too, what with the pipes and machinery.

MAP16: Stoned: This one got an "Oh no, not this one..." reaction upon seeing the first exterior area. Progression is very 90s, there's a chaingunner behind one-way textures early on that can happily chip away at your health unless you work out where he is, plenty of really long corridors and oversized areas... But it's another adventure. I actually enjoyed it a bit more than I thought I would this time around. My most recent experience was a co-op with my youngest brother. I remember quite a lot of blind running around and complete confusion with all of the traps.

Solo there's tons of health and ammo though, so it balances in your favour. Plus, without another player as a distraction it was easier to work out what is going on with seemingly random lift sequences and stuff. It's a product of it's time, basically.

Last edited by Phobus on 01-16-13 at 23:34

Old Post 01-16-13 22:19 #
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Urban Space Cowboy
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In map 31 you don't absolutely have to noclip, you can diagonally run through a window to get into the part of the map with the super-secret exit. Watch the MAP31s UV Speed demoes here to see how.

Old Post 01-17-13 00:23 #
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mouldy
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Urban Space Cowboy said:
In map 31 you don't absolutely have to noclip, you can diagonally run through a window to get into the part of the map with the super-secret exit. Watch the MAP31s UV Speed demoes here to see how.


wow sneaky, its a bit fiddly but i managed to do it after several goes. Wonder if that was intentional...

Old Post 01-17-13 01:33 #
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Capellan
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mouldy said:
Wonder if that was intentional...


Very unlikely.

Map17

Blecch.

Starts with a wood and brick building full of 64-wide corridors. Then we go outside for a bunch of things that have yellow key textures but don't actually need the yellow key - they just lead to the yellow door.

Behind the yellow door, we have a redux of the 'teleporting Barons' from map08, only in super-tight confines where the fight is frustrating rather than fun.

This was not much fun.

Old Post 01-17-13 08:47 #
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cannonball
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Map17 - House of Thorn by Eric Sambach
Very cramped at times making the gameplay rather slow and awkward, reasonable ammount of tougher monster but plenty of plasma to dispose of them. Ok level, nothing special and I don't particularly understand the notion of including a "my house" style map in this wad.

Old Post 01-17-13 11:05 #
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Phobus
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MAP17: House of Thorn: It's a MYHOUSE.WAD through and through, but compared to The Mansion (similar concept) it's worlds better. Very cramped though, surprisingly tough albeit with loads of plasma provided to try and make all of the hitpoints you'll need to wade through evaporate more quickly. I couldn't work out how to get two of the secrets (although I'm fairly certain they're both in the main house). The co-op puzzle can be cheesed quite comfortably if you're quick enough to get onto the first level, as you can then use the bannisters to step up on to the higher ones, giving you two megaspheres on top of the secret soulsphere and blue armour in the area.

All in all, not too bad, I guess, but far from great.

Old Post 01-17-13 13:51 #
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mouldy
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16 - Stoned by Kurt Schmid

This was quite an entertaining map, you never quite knew what it was going to do next. Lots of secret rooms, dropping pits, wide empty spaces and teleporting. Some of the secrets were less secretive than the non-secrets, if that makes any sense... More health than i could use up even playing haphazardly, although a couple of archviles took me by surprise. I liked this map despite it being a bit easy and plain here and there.

17 - House of Thorn by Eric Sambach

Bloody claustrophobic this one, could have done with a bit more elbow room. Some of the traps were a bit harsh, in terms of not having much space to fight in. Not much health lying around either, kind of the opposite of the last map. The plasma rifle room is particularly harsh if you go there without the blue key like I did. Not such an enjoyable map.

Old Post 01-17-13 20:01 #
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Magnusblitz
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MAP14: AQUADUCT

And so begins my frustrating journey of not being able to get important switches to open. It's a small little map, and I probably would've found it decent except that I could not get the switch that opens the red door (in singleplayer) to open. Yeah, I can get the far one with the Arch-Vile to open, but that's coop only - no way to reach the red door from it. No idea how to get the close one to open - had to noclip to get through.

MAP15: KARMACOMA

As others have said, it's very... square. Big large buildings that you can actually go inside, which is cool, but the outsides are bland and empty. Empty can be fine and even impressive if done right (think about some of Unreal's vistas) but when it's just a bunch of boxes... yeah. Not a whole lot of interesting gameplay either, with the monster encounters spread somewhat thinly. The secret exit is somewhat obvious, but on my first playthrough I somehow managed to lock myself outside of the supply room (and a wall slid up over the window to jump out of to get to the secret exit).

Oh yeah, and as others have mentioned, having bars over a door that open on their own is a huge no-no. Luckily, to paraphrase Flynn Taggart, I'm a compulsive spacebar-pusher.

MAP31: TECHNOLOGY BASE

I liked this map a lot, actually... the monster density is a bit of a slog but most of it is easy-to-mow down zombies and imps. A bit of a switch hunt, but nothing frustrating, and the traps and wall/ceiling opens are inventive enough to keep the player guessing without being annoying... until you try to get to the secret exit. Looking at video runthroughs, apparently it IS possible to access in singleplayer, but you have to make a hard jump off a teleporter... which I somehow managed to lower so that said jump was unreachable. Argh. More noclip. The eastern part of the map (the MP part) is also underwhelming and feels unfinished, as it's just a room full of zombiemen followed by a room full of shotgunners next to a room full of chaingunners. Can't get some variety in here...?

MAP32: THE HIDDEN SLIME FACTORY

Big meh here. As others have said, its overstocked to a crazy extent - soulspheres and megaspheres and blue armor everywhere you turn, and one hallway with something like 20 shotgun boxes in it. Something I'd expect from a Scythe map, not this. There's a few nice architectural points (I'm a sucker for huge changing rooms, the pipes were nice, and there's one spot where it looks like he manually aligned textures to give it a curve). Still, the gameplay was so underwhelming it didn't really excite me. Or I was just bummed after three straight levels of having to noclip to the exit.

Old Post 01-18-13 07:09 #
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Capellan
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Map18

I didn't much like the first half of this level - too many cheap tricks, and a secret or two that seemed to actively punish the player. But the end game, running around the various buildings, looking for the blue and yellow keys, was actually good fun. It still had cheap tricks aplenty, but there was plenty going on to keep the action moving.

Old Post 01-18-13 08:13 #
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cannonball
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Map18 - A Dead Man's Town by Henrik Rathje
Not nice to look at on the whole, bland and quite cramped on many areas. SOme of the traps are quite harsh but not too over the top. The map design seems more about how to shift and move monsters to add challenge rather than to structure a nice map and balance it accordingly. It's an ok map and it did kill me quite a few times.

Old Post 01-18-13 10:36 #
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aldiboronti
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Magnusblitz said:
[b]MAP14: AQUADUCT

And so begins my frustrating journey of not being able to get important switches to open. It's a small little map, and I probably would've found it decent except that I could not get the switch that opens the red door (in singleplayer) to open. Yeah, I can get the far one with the Arch-Vile to open, but that's coop only - no way to reach the red door from it. No idea how to get the close one to open - had to noclip to get through.




No, it's perfectly possible to reach and get through the final red door in SP. You have to get there pretty damn quickly after pushing the second red switch but it is doable. Or do you mean the second red switch wont work for you? I use GZDoom and there's no problems with that source port.

Old Post 01-18-13 11:41 #
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vdgg
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Magnusblitz said:
MAP14: AQUADUCT

I could not get the switch that opens the red door (in singleplayer) to open. Yeah, I can get the far one with the Arch-Vile to open, but that's coop only - no way to reach the red door from it. No idea how to get the close one to open - had to noclip to get through.

Did you pick up the chaingun at the start? If not, there's little chance to be on time. If yes, one more switch, closer to the red door, is revealed.

Old Post 01-18-13 12:14 #
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Phobus
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MAP18: A Dead Man's Town: I found 5/6 secrets and all of them had something overpowered in (megaspheres, blue armours, soulspheres) bar the one I found in the ending town which seemed to have nothing of value at all. I'd read comments from Capellan and cannonball, so I was prepared for the trickery and crampedness of the first half. As a result, I made it through virtually unscathed, but miffed I couldn't go back as the last section puts up a bit of decent resistance and being able to track back for the megasphere or blue armour I left would've been pretty nice.

I quite liked the game play for this, as it managed to be hard in a reasonable way and the various traps never seemed too overwhelming, what with all the fire power I was lugging about. It's far from pretty, but does the job alright.

Old Post 01-18-13 18:25 #
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mouldy
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18 - A Dead Man's Town by Henrik Rathje

Man this map turned into a pain in the arse. Not sure if its the way I played it, but by the final area I was so low on ammo that I was having to run around collecting an admiring crowd of Barons while I hunted for supplies. And behind every door was another Baron. Those things are such a chore to kill even with enough bullets, but without them its not even worth trying. So what started out as a reasonably enjoyable run and gun turned into an exercise in ammunition micromanagement and monster herding. This map seemed hard, but for all the wrong reasons. Surprise chaingunners, chaingunner snipers, narrow corridor battles with barons and hell knights, awkward navigation and ultimately no ammo. If it wasn't for secrets and the achviles making more shotgun guys I'd have been down to my fists long before the plasma rifle finally arrived, at which point the map is practically over.

I didn't see anyone else complain about the lack of ammo, so I played through it again to be sure - even knowing where everything is and playing conservatively I ended up having to punch an arachnotron, and yet after the plasma gun arrives there's nothing left to fight, so I guess it must just be a pistol-start issue. A few more boxes of rockets would have made this a bit more enjoyable.

Old Post 01-18-13 22:18 #
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Magnusblitz
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aldiboronti said:


No, it's perfectly possible to reach and get through the final red door in SP. You have to get there pretty damn quickly after pushing the second red switch but it is doable. Or do you mean the second red switch wont work for you? I use GZDoom and there's no problems with that source port.



To clarify, there's a red switch you need to press to open the red skull columns, a red switch immediately after the red columns, and a red switch at the end of that hallway by the plasma gun (after the Arch-Vile trap). Both of the latter two switches open the door.


vdgg said:
Did you pick up the chaingun at the start? If not, there's little chance to be on time. If yes, one more switch, closer to the red door, is revealed.


Wow... THAT'S what I needed to do? Just ran through it again and yeah, sure enough, at the start of the map the closer red switch is closed off and the one by the plasma gun is open, but going into the cubbyhole and picking up the chaingun opens the closer red switch and closes the far plasma gun one.

That's messed up. Indeed, I did not pick up the chaingun on my playthrough (having full ammo from prior maps).

Old Post 01-18-13 22:38 #
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MAP16: STONED

Well, it keeps to the theme (lots of stone) and I found it to be an enjoyable little romp. As Capellan noted, it feels like it should be bigger/longer than it is, probably because there are a few large rooms in the map and they're relatively empty. The rest is a good mix of traps and fun battles though. Except for that hidden chaingunner early on hidden somewhere in the huge room. Screw that guy. Also, the last room is laughable (10 barons stuck in cages, run to the megasphere and into the exit teleporter).

MAP17: HOUSE OF THORN

I'm just gonna echo Phobus:


It's a MYHOUSE.WAD through and through, but compared to The Mansion (similar concept) it's worlds better. Very cramped though, surprisingly tough albeit with loads of plasma provided to try and make all of the hitpoints you'll need to wade through evaporate more quickly.

Old Post 01-19-13 07:28 #
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cannonball
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Map19 - Maltraiter by Michael Rapp
Hmm, pretty straightforward map,not really any proper resistance and most monsters are in front of you. A few traps mostly near the beginning. Theme varies but it is not over the top.
One nitpick, that crusher, not cool.

Old Post 01-19-13 11:20 #
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