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Capellan
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Map19

Kicks off with a bang, and is then mostly fairly mild resistance thereafter. Kind of like a bigger Demonfear map :)

The fight in the blue door room (cacos, imps and shotgunners) was actually quite good fun. Pity that wasn't the last encounter of the level, rather than the harmless solo Baron gurading the key itself.

Texturing is solid. Layout very linear and a little boxy, but it was 1995 (or very early 96) when this was made, so that's not so surprising.

The crusher didn't get me. I was expecting a trap of some kind, so was moving carefully.

Old Post 01-19-13 20:13 #
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mouldy
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19 - Maltraiter by Michael Rapp

I played this map earlier, then just as I was about to write about it I got a phone call from a mate. Then I went and made a cup of tea, and now I can't remember a single thing about this map.

Thats not to say it was bad, or annoying - I'd have remembered that. The one thing I do remember is that it was pretty easy, at no point was I near death, I didn't bother saving half way.. you know i dont think I even remembered it while I was playing it. I was on total autopilot.

Ah well.

Old Post 01-19-13 23:57 #
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Capellan
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Map20

It's a bad sign when the only thing I really remember about a level is the need to take a leap of faith drop into nukage-filled pit of monsters.

Old Post 01-20-13 07:55 #
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cannonball
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Map20 - Mountain Depot by Scott Lampert
Broke the red key area and had to noclip to get the red key
Couldn't get bfg even when it was starring me in the face.
Map was easy despite the cyber, just too open and looked ugly. Bad map overall.

Old Post 01-20-13 08:33 #
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LordK
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Back in '96 the standout maps for me were 4, 7, 15, 20, 23 and 28.

MAP04 and MAP07 still hold up fairly well. I enjoyed the now a little old-fashioned switch hunts.

MAP15 is boxy and mostly empty but the foreboding architecture and the sort of proto-slaughter fights create an evil atmosphere. From the very beginning MAP15 screams "serious business" to me.

MAP20 is a disappointment. I'm not quite sure why this was so memorable at the time. I guess the large scale created a sense of epicness. Also cyberdemon fights were a lot more serious then. The low detail and sparse vistas might have even been a positive factor because they allowed me to use my imagination. Nowadays I expect the level author to fill in the gaps for me.

On a side note, I've noticed that even though as a whole Memento Mori hasn't quite stood up the test of time, the music is as great as ever. Some boring maps like 10 and 20 are buoyed by their music. While playing MAP10 I thought that this hum-drum map doesn't deserve the great track accompanying it.

Old Post 01-20-13 13:56 #
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mouldy
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20 - Mountain Depot by Scott Lampert

Spent most of my time in this map running around a vast empty landscape wondering what the hell to do next, turns out the answer was jump in a pit of nukage. Idiocy.

Old Post 01-20-13 20:18 #
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cannonball
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mouldy said:
20 - Mountain Depot by Scott Lampert

Spent most of my time in this map running around a vast empty landscape wondering what the hell to do next, turns out the answer was jump in a pit of nukage. Idiocy.


Don't worry, when I entered it, the main bit of the nukage pit raised but stopped halfway with the bit to the key still rising to the top, couldn't get the key and got a massive HOM as a reward.... yay **

Old Post 01-20-13 20:21 #
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Phobus
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MAP19: Maltraiter: It's linear, incredibly symmetrical and very generous with ammo. Health seemed reasonably tight, but the enemies are low level enough that it is easy to get through largely unscathed. The crusher isn't objectionable, IMO, but the mid textures with Revenants behind them were pretty annoying, as they had a lot of space to move around, making them hard to guess at.

All in all, pretty basic, but alright.

Last edited by Phobus on 01-20-13 at 20:50

Old Post 01-20-13 20:25 #
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Capellan
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cannonball said:
Don't worry, when I entered it, the main bit of the nukage pit raised but stopped halfway with the bit to the key still rising to the top, couldn't get the key and got a massive HOM as a reward.... yay **


It's also possible, somehow, to glitch out the 'switch bunkers' (grey octagonal structures with switches in them and floors that are a lift). Not sure how, but I managed to fall through the floor of one of those when it went back up and I didn't. HOMtastic.

Old Post 01-20-13 20:52 #
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Phobus
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MAP20: Mountain Depot: I think there might be some sort of node build issue with this map, as I was getting a few odd glitches near the nukage pools (it was almost as if I was simultaneously at the same height as the imps in the pit and still on the ledge above them).

Aside from the way to getting the red key being stupid, the blind jump (even with mouselook) into a cramped and crowded death hole for the secret megasphere + invulnerability wasn't a design choice I could back. Otherwise, I actually really liked the map. The BFG (which I didn't bother getting) is pretty clever to access, as you can get an Arch-Vile to launch you up there I think, but you'd have to lure it into the room with you first (use the invulnerability, perhaps?). As far as I could tell from the map editor, that's the only legitimately '96 solution to it, as obviously rocket jumping (or just straight up jumping) wouldn't have been around and the sector is untagged.

Visuals were pretty reasonable and the outside area in particular actually looked nice, IMO. Game play wasn't too bad, with the cyberdemon making a big impact if you're not ready for him. I lured him out into the light and had an easy time as a result, but that's only because he'd have been an arse in that dark cave. Quite possible to get into some real trouble out in the open with all of the hitscanners around in the buildings too, but they are relatively few and easy to get killed in infighting.

All told, it probably is one of the better ones in this set, as far as I'm concerned.

Old Post 01-20-13 21:18 #
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mouldy
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I think i'd have enjoyed map 20 if it weren't for that red key business. I had to open it in doom builder to figure it out, bloody bizarre idea.

Old Post 01-20-13 22:08 #
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Capellan
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mouldy said:
I think i'd have enjoyed map 20 if it weren't for that red key business. I had to open it in doom builder to figure it out, bloody bizarre idea.


To be fair to map20, the same basic idea was also in map19 - jumping down into an area with no obvious exit, then activating something to make the floor rise*. And map05 required a "leap of faith" too.

That, plus the red key bring in plain sight, and the rad suit in a nearby bunker, was probably seen as enough of a cue that people would put on the suit and drop into the pit to look for a switch.

But I may be saying that because seeing the red key and the rad suit was enough to make me make the connection, in this case.

At least it wasn't a teleporter puzzle.



* though it was entirely optional in map19

Old Post 01-20-13 22:22 #
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mouldy
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Capellan said:


To be fair to map20, the same basic idea was also in map19 - jumping down into an area with no obvious exit, then activating something to make the floor rise*. And map05 required a "leap of faith" too.

That, plus the red key bring in plain sight, and the rad suit in a nearby bunker, was probably seen as enough of a cue that people would put on the suit and drop into the pit to look for a switch.

But I may be saying that because seeing the red key and the rad suit was enough to make me make the connection, in this case.

At least it wasn't a teleporter puzzle.



* though it was entirely optional in map19



There's obvious, and then there's subtle, and then there's obscure, and then there's counter-intuitive. And then there's an invisible switch in a pit of nukage.

Old Post 01-20-13 23:42 #
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Capellan
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mouldy said:
There's obvious, and then there's subtle, and then there's obscure, and then there's counter-intuitive. And then there's an invisible switch in a pit of nukage.


You will notice that it I complained about it, too. :)

Still, map05 has "jump into nukage and hope there's a door you can't see", while map08 has both "jump into lava and hope that's a door on the automap" and "jump into lava to activate an unmarked lift". In the latter case, there isn't even the clue of a visible key. There are maps with must-find secrets, and maps with necessary doors that aren't marked as secrets, because in multiplayer they are obvious to player 2, but that effectively are secrets in single player mode.

Map20 is hardly alone in MM in having unintuitive or counter-intuitive gameplay elements. This doesn't make the red key jump in map20 a good idea. But it's hardly alone in the megawad in being a bad design choice.

Where map20 probably suffers most is that it doesn't have anything especially positive to comment on. Neither the way it looks or the way it plays are particularly interesting.

ETA: Scott Lampert did this map, and also did map27, so I guess we will see if that map also has some bad choices in it. The doom wiki doesn't list anything other than these two levels for him, and he didn't take part in MM2. Anyone know of any other levels he did?

Old Post 01-21-13 00:12 #
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Magnusblitz
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MAP18 - DEAD MAN'S TOWN

I really liked the opening area, then disliked the middle part (too many chaingunner snipers, cramped areas, etc). Once things were cleared out a bit it was more fun with finding the blue and yellow keys. I liked the Arch-Vile placement, too many people use AVs alone when they're really much more of a challenge as part of a group of other monsters. Overall my main complaint with the map was waaay too many Barons. It was probably a bit different back in '94, but mouselook makes them one of the lowest-threat monsters at any decent range, and they becoming nothing more than an ammo sink.

MAP19 - MALTRAITER

A nice, easy little romp after the overly-Baron-heavy last map. Most of the enemies here are zombies, imps or demons; only a couple revenants, mancubi, hell knights, and a caco and a baron to round things out. Not too shabby, but nothing too memorable either.

MAP20 - MOUNTAIN DEPOT

If nothing else, I can definitely appreciate the general design of the level - having a large, bright outdoors area was a nice change after lots of dim, indoor, cramped areas. Also liked starting in the middle and being able to go through the doors behind or through the doors/bridge area ahead. Still, I wouldn't have filled the outdoor area with lost souls, hitscanners and revenants... quite annoying. The cyberdemon fight is nicely placed and has an invuln sphere secret nearby to take the edge off. As for the red key, yeah, bad design, but the rad suit and easily visible red key was enough to get me to jump in and spacebar everything. Would've been better with a visible switch, I think.

Couldn't figure out how to get the BFG, though (got the doors open somehow, couldn't get the platform to lower).

Old Post 01-21-13 07:12 #
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Capellan
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Magnusblitz said:
complaints about Barons


IMO, mouselook in Doom wads that aren't designed for it is cheating, so you'll get no sympathy from me :P



Map21

A big, sprawling level, with lots of different subsections each sporting a different textural theme. Pretty good on the whole, though our old friend unintuitive design rears his ugly head once more, as there are several times when you're expected to jump into pits with no obvious means of egress, and another case where stairs rise only if you walk down a certain pathway that doesn't really offer you any real incentive to explore it..

This is also one of those levels that definitely shows the difference in monster use between 1996 and now. Areas that in CC4 would sport a dozen big monsters here offer only 2 or 3. There's no long stretches of inaction, but the fights are generally much less frantic than in more modern work.

Old Post 01-21-13 07:34 #
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cannonball
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Map21 - Twilight Lab by Andy Badorek
Long, non linear map, great design and looks, plays well too. This map differs from a lot as in it has aged a lot better than many others. As I watched SAV88's demo for the map a while back (recorded it for youtube) I followed his route and well found all the secrets/kills and had little trouble navigating the map. The yellow key door thing is stupid though. Definitely one of my favourite maps so far.

Old Post 01-21-13 11:52 #
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Ribbiks
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map21 - Twilight Lab

the only MM map I actually like, and largely because of the music :) It's also among the memorable maps I can recall from my late 90s dooming as a kid, so I'll probably always have a soft spot for it. Sprawling layout chock full of quirky design choices, I swear my first exits on this must've taken hours.

Old Post 01-21-13 12:36 #
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Phobus
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MAP21: Twilight Lab: Ahh, the 90s. A simpler time, when intuitive progression didn't matter, textures were fair game for anything, GRAYTALL was used in maps and things largely seemed brighter...

I like this map. It's not particularly well-designed - a lot of monster encounters are either homogenous, or small mobs of chaingunners, shotgunners and imps crowded into a corridor or small room - but all of the visual cues it picks up from places like E2 and seemingly other maps in this map set (possibly just down to textures) and all of the little oddities in this large, explorable map just endeared me to it. It's an interesting place to be. I'd say level design is pretty flat (not Wolf3D flat, but almost all encounters are done on a level plane) and difficulty has the odd spike in amongst either empty rooms or the odd crowd of low-level stuff.

Back when I first discovered user-made content for Doom in any meaningful way (i.e. not replacing the Demons with Penguins, or Simpsons graphics mods) pretty much every map seemed to be like this. A few little touches to personalise a quintessential doom experience in a pretty large, but also easy, map.

Pure nostalgia, and I didn't even remember this map :P

Old Post 01-21-13 23:03 #
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mouldy
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21 - Twilight Lab by Andy Badorek

I loved this map. Sprawling and labyrinthine, unpredictable as hell, full of surprises and mysterious shit, and the music is fantastic. There seemed to be so many paths to choose from and yet it was so interconnected that I never felt lost. In design terms I'd say this was the best map so far, and the gameplay wasn't bad either. Non-linear as it was, I somehow ended up picking a route that left me without the SSG for ages, but the fights were never too overwhelming. The weird and abstract architecture really gave it an old-school doom flavour, its something that seems to get lost as maps try to mimic more realistic environments.

Is that music from another game or was it made for this wad?

Old Post 01-21-13 23:53 #
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Processingcontrol
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All the (awesome) music is by Mark Klem. He also made tracks for mm2, Requiem, Strain, the Gothic DeathMatch series, and few other wads.

Old Post 01-22-13 00:53 #
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Capellan
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Map22

The teleporting barrel in this is the cheapest of cheap tricks, in a level with a fair number of cheap tricks.

Other than that, this is a pretty fine mid-90s level, with the disparate textural themes and low monster count that tends to be common in maps of this time. Layout is often inventive, though the multiple tunnel runs required for the blue key is a multiplayer section that doesn't translate well to solo play.

Old Post 01-22-13 07:24 #
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cannonball
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Map22 - The Escape by Denis Möller
Hit and miss map here, lots of nasty traps, some which reach the level of bs in my opinion
the 2 mastermind room would be if there was at least some space. Nope if you go out in the open, 99% of the bullets fired will hit you. I tried runing round the back of one of the masterminds, the one closest fires, the other one just sits still. Losing 75% of my health (I started on pretty much 200/200) is not cool.
The blue key trap is also pretty awful, the barrel teleporter is also harsh. Seemed to be a trend of cheaply removing tonnes of your health without you standing much chance.
The thing is though once you remove those three awful moments, there is a loit good going here, the approach to the blue key is a little dragged out, some nice deep water effects though. And the level itself is structured quite nicely.

Old Post 01-22-13 11:22 #
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Phobus
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MAP22: The Escape: This map endeared itself to me by looking pretty good and being genuinely challenging, but never quite unfair. Some genuine "ohshi-" moments that I survived by quick thinking (Spider Mastermind ambush, comes to mind) and puzzles were alright. Shame there wasn't an SP-optimised version of the blue key thing though, as that tunnel run was tiresome and repetitive.

I liked this map :)


MAP23 is a Casali map and is set up for slaughter, it seems. This should be interesting...

Old Post 01-22-13 13:28 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Well I am a fair way behind the pace here. Have only had time to play the first 4 maps so far.

Map 01: The teleporter. Nice opening map. Really interesting design, and fights were good.

Map 02: The bridge. Uses a lot of the new MM textures. Unique map, though it's a little bland on the gameplay.

Map 03: Interlock. I always thought this map would have been a better map 01 than map 01.

Map 04: The stand. Tough map in terms of monsters. I play through MM every few years or so, and every time without fail, I have to open this map up in an editor to figure out the blue key section. I always forget to notice the arrow at sector 240.

Map 05: Hell's Kitchen. One of the best maps in the set.

Yeah yeah, I am a long way behind, and am not likely to catch up, but that is my waaaay late 2c worth on the first 5 maps.

cheers

Old Post 01-22-13 18:19 #
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mouldy
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22 - The Escape by Denis Möller

A lot of harsh ambushes and claustophobic spaces in this one. I ended up saving quite often as some of the traps were a bit deadly, perhaps unfairly so? I'm not sure, certainly was a lot of death by chaingunner going on. The whole blue key business was a bit weird, not sure what was going on there - were you meant to go through all 4 of the portals to unlock it? Cool music again, felt a bit like I was in the crystal maze.

Old Post 01-22-13 19:02 #
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Capellan
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More on map22 ...

I actually didn't mind the two spiderdemon room. There are a couple of ways to get under cover after the initial ohgod moment, and once you do, you have two options: goad them into infighting with a quick dash out and back (which I did, and which cost less than 25% health), or hide in a corner and plink at them (which will use up a lot of ammo, but was safe to do).

The teleporting barrel trap, however, had me calling Denis Moller some very unkind names. Particularly because it is designed in a way that punishes sensible play. I'd be more forgiving of it if there was some visual cue that there was a teleport line. Alas, surprise teleport!s date back to the iwads.

One thing this level definitely does is give you an appreciation for the deadliness of fast open doors + packs of demons.


On MM in general ...

While there aren't many levels in the pack I would hold up as great single player maps, I am finding keeping up with this wad to be a pretty easy task. Even the larger levels (e.g. 21) seem relatively easy to knock over in a timely fashion.

Old Post 01-22-13 20:55 #
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cannonball
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I guess I was very unlucky, I didn't really want to waste ammo (in fact is it even possible to do that from pistol start) and well dashing between the doors didn't get the spiders infighting at all, as I said earlier their proximity is too close hence most bullets will hit the player.
Barrel trap is cruel and I didn't like the blue key trap as it floods a small area with lots of hitscanners, your health goes really quickly and there is not much you can do about it. All the other traps were well done though.
Yeah this wad does seem pretty easy for todays standards I suppose, though map23 might change our minds haha

Old Post 01-22-13 21:07 #
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Magnusblitz
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MAP21 - TWILIGHT LAB

As others have said, this map definitely has that old-school 1996 feel. It has that combination of real-world design (this is supposed to the crusher, this is supposed to be the lab, etc) and abstract design that was prevalent in the early id design. Each area has wildly different textures and feels like its from a different map, but the signs help tie everything together, and it's pretty non-linear. Yeah, the gameplay isn't the greatest and there are some bad unintuitive design choices (that yellow key column/door, wtf) but overall it has that old-school charm.

MAP22 - THE ESCAPE

I really liked this map... until the blue key area. Until then, it's got a lot of small-but-cramped fights, the double Spiderdemon room is a good "ohgod" moment, and while the map is pretty linear it also wraps around on itself a few times, which I like.

However, the blue key area was bad because for a number of reasons: 1)you do the same hallway over four times, despite having a relatively "unique" hallway design (i.e., it doesn't feel like the sort of thing that would naturally occur four times in a level), 2) the blue key cage is buggy - the visible columns lower after one hallway, but there's an invisible cage around it, 3) unintuitive design in that you need to flip the switch three times - one lower the blue key, one spawns the monsters, and the last drops the invisible cage, and 4) it's possible to completely lock yourself out of completing the level if you take the teleporter to the blue door before grabbing the blue key since the teleporters close off after using them. An unfortunate egregious error in a map I otherwise liked a lot.

Old Post 01-22-13 22:38 #
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Capellan
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We're nearing the end of the month and should perhaps start thinking about the next megawad.

Another 90s classic? Or a more modern release? Full 32 levels or a shorter challenge? What do people want to try?

Old Post 01-23-13 03:43 #
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