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MarkAnthony89
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Greetings, community! Well I'm not a mapper though I can become one day, who knows?!

This is the main thread of brand new ideas for community projects that have never had put in pratice, ideas suggested by me and any of you guys, just reply to this thread and post your idea if you want and I'll add it here in this thread.

Here are all the ideas so far:

1 - A team of mappers get together to create a (mega)wad that is inspired by other great and famous project, this was already made with Plutonia (Revisited), but new projects could be created inspired by alien vendetta, hell revealed, Deus Vult 2 or Eternal 3, etc...

2 - Remember maps 19 (darkseed) and map22 (evil eye) form ndcp2? Temple of chaos 2 by Agent Spork, map10 (test of pacience) from Zones of Fear, void by Cyb and map28 (run from it) from Scythe? What do they all have in common - they're all different and innovative and if mappers could come together in order to create a megawad in these styles of maps we'd have an innovative commnunity project. Scripting could be allowed.

3 - Each author creates a map with a layout drawing his/her name (it can be the artistic name) in the same style of 11 "Years Of Doom.wad".

4 - Like joke wads? I'm not talking about shitty wads, joke wads that can make us laugh (shitty wads can't do this) I give you the best exemple I know so far - Doom: The Parody by Pawel Zarczynski, each author could make a joke map and scripting would be a must.

5 - Do you know what makes a map being large (long to play)? It's not the enemy count, not even the layout sometimes, take for example most Eternal 3 and specially Eternal 4 maps, some of today's wads and megawads have maps with 400+ monsters but these are too short compared by eternal maps withy only less then 200 enemies. So here's the idea: create your BIGGEST and LONGEST map ever that you can, exaggerate! Each author could make a map that could take 5-8 hours or so for the player to complete even in a speedrun, it'd be a megawad with dozens and dozens of hours. longevity and patience is the key, take for example The ZDoom Community Map Project Take 1.

6 - Like puzzles? Each author could contribute with a puzzle map for a community project, scripting would be a must.

7 - Heretic heavy slaughtering wads are SCARSE! OK, Hordes of Chaos X and Curse of D'Speril are the examples, I couldn't find more cause they're scarce, that's why this idea is written here, each author makes a heavy slaughtering map for heretic, goal could be to replace all 5 or 3 episodes but please, less then 3 no!

8 - Experienced authors could come together to create and gather 30 maps "remaking" famous projects. Example: map01 could be a remake of alien vendetta creating its style and many familiar places (no permission required once no modifications would be made to maps, authors could create similar and familiar places and moments from alien vendetta from scratch), map02 could be hell revealed, map03 eternal, etc...

9 - Banning starbase and hell themes in a community project made by various. (suggested by Phobus)

That's it for now. I hope this to be usefull for you guys who love mapping, for the doom community, don't ever say you've run out of ideas! Unless you, by any weird reason, haven't seen this thread.

Feedback and new ideas would be apriciated! (;P)

Last edited by MarkAnthony89 on 01-18-13 at 15:41

Old Post 01-16-13 11:44 #
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Memfis
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I think the problem with most Community Projects is that the quality control is not good enough. Sure, they don't accept total crap, but make an average map - and it probably will be accepted. I don't know much about the making process of Alien Vendetta but I bet Anders Johnsen was a lot more strict about this stuff.

Old Post 01-16-13 11:59 #
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Phobus
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A lot of those ideas don't look like ones that would take off easily, mostly because of the gigantic projects they'd be or niche appeal being a problem.

Ideas 3 ("Say My Name", would be my title) and 8 (a homage-fest) would be pretty enjoyable for the masses AND not take forever to do, IMO, although 2 is definitely the most interesting, seeing as it'd be a "forced innovation" project. If you want to see 5 in action, just look at half the maps that turned up in the Community Chest projects - everybody going for their magnum opus resulting in hours and hours and hours of play time.

Old Post 01-16-13 12:53 #
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kmxexii
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Not to rain on your boundless enthusiasm but the community is not suffering for any shortage of interesting ideas for community projects. All of the real difficulty comes from making your aspirations manifest in the map editor.

Old Post 01-16-13 14:23 #
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BaronOfStuff
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MarkAnthony89 said:

5 - ...Each author could make a map that could take 5-8 hours or so for the player to complete even in a speedrun...



A map that would take this long to get through with only 200 enemies would bore me -- and perhaps anyone else -- to fucking tears. 5 - 8 hours in a Speedrun? Jesus Christ. I'm no fan of Slaughtermaps (if anything I simply can't stand the mindless nature of them), but something that needs several hours to get through casually would by default require at least 3,000 or so (probably many, many more) enemies distributed throughout to keep it remotely entertaining. If I wanted to just run around and occasionally get into a fight, I'd go outside for a jog in a shitty area of town, not play Doom.

As for my own idea for a community project, something along the lines of Ultimate Simplicity's general approach to maps would do just fine; classic-style gameplay, but taking full advantage of ZDoom's flexibility for mapping features. Just get rid of those crap bossfights and make everything co-op compatible.

Old Post 01-16-13 15:19 #
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Impboy4
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This idea was already done but people liked it before so I'll bring it up again; recreating a SLIGE map from scratch by finding a map they like in fraggle's SLIGE megawad generator here.

Actually, I can twist this idea to make it more interesting. Grab a SLIGE map from the link, then try fuse it with an OBLIGE map (Obhack or the latest) as best as you can. You can use parts of it or the whole map. A tempting title for this could be "Dueling Map Generations" unless someone can come up with a better one.

Old Post 01-16-13 16:35 #
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Shadow Hog
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Impboy4 said:
This idea was already done but people liked it before so I'll bring it up again; recreating a SLIGE map from scratch by finding a map they like in fraggle's SLIGE megawad generator here.

Actually, I can twist this idea to make it more interesting. Grab a SLIGE map from the link, then try fuse it with an OBLIGE map (Obhack or the latest) as best as you can. You can use parts of it or the whole map. A tempting title for this could be "Dueling Map Generations" unless someone can come up with a better one.

Reminds me of when I took a MegaWAD generated in SLIGE, a MegaWAD generated in an old version of OBLIGE and a MegaWAD generated in a recent version of OBLIGE, mixed up the orders, and basically made a 96-level WAD to toy around with out of it.

Wore out its welcome quickly, of course, but it was kinda nifty to see how much random map generators changed over the years.

Old Post 01-16-13 17:11 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Impboy4 said:
This idea was already done but people liked it before so I'll bring it up again; recreating a SLIGE map from scratch by finding a map they like in fraggle's SLIGE megawad generator here.


I quite like this idea. I've attempted to 'tune-up' a few SLIGE maps before (not remake from scratch), and it's both fun and testing. Although it can also be incredibly frustrating if you try working on a massively shit map.

Old Post 01-16-13 17:35 #
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Memfis
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Tuning up computer generated maps is a traditional contest in the Russian community. :) Some compilations are available in the archives:
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=15421
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=15142
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=16172

Old Post 01-16-13 17:38 #
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40oz
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Memfis said:
I think the problem with most Community Projects is that the quality control is not good enough. Sure, they don't accept total crap, but make an average map - and it probably will be accepted. I don't know much about the making process of Alien Vendetta but I bet Anders Johnsen was a lot more strict about this stuff.


I don't necessarily agree with this. BTsX is a pretty prime example of this. I can't honestly say I played through that thing and thought any map was particularly bad, and more importantly, the level of quality (in regards to detail and fairness) is relatively consistent throughout the thing. What it really lacks in is enough character and individuality in its maps. It's essentially a pile of techbase maps that are all relatively the same difficulty and almost all look the same. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't feel like it's telling a story or creating a real adventure, which kinda stinks for how many maps it has.

I think what community projects tend to lack the most is sufficient planning and stricter rules. (and I'm not talking about 1024 size constraints, or vanilla limitations) but some rules that are complex and restricting that it would squeeze some real creativity out of mappers. Community projects seem to lack someone who will stand up and say "I'm going to make the blood ocean map" or "I'm gonna make the cyberdemon arena" or "I'm gonna make the crate maze map" It seems like mappers remain in their safe zone and pick between tech or hell, and not much else.

Now I can't speak for all community projects. Slaughterfest 2011 shows a lot of character, because many of the maps play much differently than one another, and the type of gameplay requires the player to really study the shape of the map to understand how he/she can kill the monsters.

But I can't agree that the level of quality control is what makes community projects suffer.

Old Post 01-16-13 18:44 #
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Phobus
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I'm with 40oz on the quality control front. I think having it be strict kind of just means there is a standard and people will play it safe and stick to that standard. This isn't the same as encouraging good maps, but sort of ensuring everybody builds the same type of map, which does result in less versatile gaming experiences and, overall, a less exciting product.

As that seems to be a pretty common complaint with DTWiD and BtSX (which are otherwise generally well-recieved) and they both have pretty strict quality control (and also enforced vanilla limits, which I think further stifles scope for rooms and variety for environments) it's probably worth looking at a different approach. I suppose the other extreme is the Doomworld Mega Project, which seems to be 40 completely random maps. You'll have a higher percentage of duds, but at the same time, you do get a much wider variety of maps.


I suppose this could well be the real benefit of a "build your magnum opus" project. If the maps had to obviously be hard work from the mapper and could be dropped if they weren't fun enough, it might encourage people to really step up and make their mark.

Potential idea: Have a community project that bans the themes "Hell" and "Techbase" from being submitted and then has texture sets be open?

Last edited by Phobus on 01-16-13 at 20:03

Old Post 01-16-13 19:57 #
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Memfis
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Well, I disagree that quality control was good in dtwid and btsx because they're full of boring maps IMO. :P The thing is, Anders Johnsen was (and still is) one of the best players in the world, he understood Doom's gameplay better than most people and really knew the difference between fun and boring, between challenging and tedious, etc. My theory is that usually the best wads are born when the best players are involved. The prime examples are: AV, Ksutra, Scythe 1/2/x, PL2.

Old Post 01-16-13 20:59 #
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j4rio
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Well there are some somewhat good players involved with sf12 so I take it it's destined to be added to your prime examples list. :p
[/loathsomehypelol]

Old Post 01-16-13 21:10 #
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Tarnsman
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AV has some pretty mediocre-to-bad levels in it that feel like space filler. You could easily cut out half of E2 and nothing of value would be lost.

Edit: And I say that as someone who considers AV one of the best WADs ever made.

Old Post 01-16-13 21:11 #
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esselfortium
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I would agree that most community projects could do with stricter quality control. I can't speak for other mappers, but personally I don't exactly feel excited to make a contribution to something if I know that any worthwhile parts of the project are likely to be buried in a pile of mediocrity few people will ever play through. There are probably a lot of great maps that few people have ever bothered to play because they're lost in some random collection.

Old Post 01-16-13 21:12 #
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Ribbiks
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I like idea #5, mostly because I think a collection of maps with 8-hour par times would be hilarious. I'm imagining a HR 'the descent' spoof with a floor that slowly lowers from +65000 to -65000

Old Post 01-16-13 21:16 #
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Capellan
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'Fun'/'boring' is a very subjective thing. Many people raved about map21 of CC4. It was one of the levels I liked least.

'Quality' can also be fairly subjectivge, outside of purely technical elements like there not being HOMs, blatant texture misalignments, or switches that don't do what they should.

All that said, many people find "your level isn't good enough" a hard thing to say to someone. It was done recently in Doom 2: In Name Only, and the project will be the better for it, but I don't think it was an easy thing for the project lead to do.

(Anecdote: some people find it easier than others. The first map submitted to be map01 MM2 - it ended up being the first 'super secret' map - got rejected in no uncertain terms by the Mollers.)

Fundamentally, however, I don't think the Doom community suffers from a lack of ideas for projects. It does suffer from projects beind interminably delayed, however. Because just like it's hard to say "this level isn't good enough", it's also hard to say "you have to show genuine progress every X weeks, or we'll bounce you".

Project management is tough. Even people who get paid to do it professionally are often pretty bad at it.

Old Post 01-16-13 22:06 #
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dew
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Memfis said:
Well, I disagree that quality control was good in dtwid and btsx because they're full of boring maps IMO. :P The thing is, Anders Johnsen was (and still is) one of the best players in the world, he understood Doom's gameplay better than most people and really knew the difference between fun and boring, between challenging and tedious, etc. My theory is that usually the best wads are born when the best players are involved. The prime examples are: AV, Ksutra, Scythe 1/2/x, PL2.

[2013-01-13 01:52:18] <Johnsen> AV was decent compared to alot of stuff, viewd by my eyes today AV is potentional but damaged by some maps that really shouldnt be in it.
[2013-01-13 01:52:42] <Johnsen> and it stood out in 2002 because there wasnt much but memento mori to compare it with (another hughly overrated mapset in reality, imo)
[2013-01-13 01:53:05] <Johnsen> perhaps I'm being too critical, but when did anyone ever release 32 maps with all quality.

also once you get to know the stories behind ksutra or scythes or pl2, you'll start seeing a lot of familiar patterns. you're overly protective of your early faves, imo (there are sucky filler maps in all of them). also thanks for implying i suck as quality control (and a demo runner?).

Old Post 01-16-13 22:12 #
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Memfis
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I didn't want to imply that you suck at playtesting, I'm sure that many (if not all) maps were improved thanks to your input. I meant that maybe some maps shouldn't have been accepted in the first place. So, you made them better, but there was only so much you could do.

Anyway, I don't want to go deep into this because, as Capellan says, it's all very subjective. I fully acknowledge that my opinion is in no way more right than anyone else's, so don't take it too personally please. (especially since I don't even make any serious arguments to support my points about what's good and what isn't)

dew said:
you're overly protective of your early faves, imo

That might very well be the case.

Old Post 01-16-13 23:00 #
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dew
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just messin with you. we all know btsx is bland burger doom and we're in it for the $$$. any day now romero will call us up to join his daikatana2 team!

Old Post 01-16-13 23:06 #
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Xaser
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Memfis said:
I meant that maybe some maps shouldn't have been accepted in the first place.

Which ones, though? There's been some similar sentiments expressed recently (though more of the "x is bland" sort) but never any specifics on what exactly the trouble is aside from general feeling.

Old Post 01-16-13 23:20 #
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Tarnsman
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Hey remember when this thread was about "Inovative Ideas for Community Projects" and not Back to Saturn X?

Old Post 01-16-13 23:28 #
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dew
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too late. the hive mind's attention was stirred.

Old Post 01-16-13 23:29 #
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Memfis
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I could name specific map slots, but I admit I can't properly explain what's wrong with them. Kinda like I can't explain love, I just feel it. You can ignore my posts since I don't have any arguments to back up what I'm saying.

Old Post 01-17-13 00:11 #
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hex11
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Run this 32 times and you got yourself a megawad, dude!
http://www.wadsinprogress.info/?a=mapgen

Old Post 01-17-13 09:17 #
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BaronOfStuff
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hex11 said:
Run this 32 times and you got yourself a megawad, dude!
http://www.wadsinprogress.info/?a=mapgen



Hahaha. That's pretty cool for something so simple. We could get a community project going based on just using this for sure!

EDIT:
Although it's not quite reliable for workable ideas, or even stuff that makes sense...

code:
Build a demon invaded bright laboratory map. The player has to find a plasma gun, kill a few Icon of Sin, find a demon gateway which is hidden behind some lost UAC machine and destroy a lot crates


And...

code:
Build a forgotten hellish castle map. The player has to kill ridiculous numbers of Imps, kill three Spectres, kill a lot Spectres and find a plasma gun


...yeah.

Last edited by BaronOfStuff on 01-17-13 at 11:49

Old Post 01-17-13 11:41 #
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Alfonzo
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Still waiting on that recently deceased barghest!

Old Post 01-17-13 13:01 #
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Cacowad
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hex11 said:
Run this 32 times and you got yourself a megawad, dude!
http://www.wadsinprogress.info/?a=mapgen



code:
Build a vast twisted bright starbase map. The player has to find some keycard which is hidden behind three big computer, kill a few Demons, kill some Shotgun guys, destroy a few crates, find a spaceport, kill three Pain Elementals which guard a demon gateway, kill three Arachnotrons, find power generator and destroy ridiculous numbers of power generator


oh, yeah, i found my next map idea.

Old Post 01-17-13 14:14 #
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Katamori
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I strongly recommend the 2nd and the 6th ideas. I'm the fan of unique ways.


hex11 said:
Run this 32 times and you got yourself a megawad, dude!
http://www.wadsinprogress.info/?a=mapgen



This is so f*ckin' hilarious that I can't describe...

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Old Post 01-17-13 15:16 #
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joe-ilya
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I thought about deathmatch megawad which is also a community project

i also have this one idea : deathmatch doom megawad "title name" based

Old Post 01-17-13 15:38 #
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