Switcheroom! Or, what if E1M1 was E3M1? (Release Candidate 3, aiming for whenever)

I gave the map a try, very nice (and though) one! I even got the secret exit. I have some observations though:

- There's several instances where you have tutti-frutti effects, all of them involved with stairs. Here's an example: http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/7340/tuttit.jpg

- The stairbuilding is buggy in this part, affecting the sector behind, which leads to a HOM bug: http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4526/screenshotdoom201303160.png

- Now, these are not bugs, but these textures are not used in the first episode in the original game, so they kinda look a bit out of place to me:

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4526/screenshotdoom201303160.png
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4526/screenshotdoom201303160.png

:)

scifista42 said:

You may for example build there a teleporter that brings you back, and put monster-blocking lines (or use SR special with a tag) on the doors so monsters won't reveal the secret. Or just unmark the redundant sectors as secret. You may also make the pushable wall harder to find - somehow, I don't know, for example change the mechanism of activation, make it shootable or passable wall etc. Similarly with other secrets, particularly those yellow locked.

And by "more Containment Area" I didn't mean only the maze, it's generally that I expect that there will be areas screaming "E2M2!", that the knowledge of the original map will at least a bit help me to navigate through the yours and the most importantly, that I won't need a big deal of imagination and abstraction to recognize areas. But as I said, your map meets these conditions (crushers and the glowing pillar are pretty recognizable landmarks), only it might have more.

The marble hall, poisonous corridor, follow-the-ceiling puzzle, at least roughly projected boxy maze, the machinery that drops down, these are landmarks of E2M2 and it would be cool if the player comes in your map, looks at a structure, immediately recognizes it although he was lost till this time, then he smiles and says for himself: "Heh, this used to be marble hall and now it's... cool!" Many maps in this project evoked such feelings in me, and I felt it's just the right. And yours did so too on the two places I've mentioned. That's just my nature - I always want more. Your conception is good and interesting and I like it and have no substantial complaints.

Now sorry, I assumed in my post that your question was aimed on me, so I wrote everything.

Yeah, my question was aimed on you. I read all of your thoughts, so no worries. I'll reconstruct the second half of the map to make it more similar to the original.

OK guys, not much to do on Saturday, so I'm going to test the latest maps you've posted :P (by te way, I'll be testing on ZDoom, so I won't be checking for tutti-frutti effect and such).

@C30N9: TERRIFIC MAP! I'm really impressed, if I didn't know you made it, I'd say it was done by Id. There's a nice blend between both levels. I recognized many parts of the E2M2 layout, though I admit I felt lost some times. I'm with scifista in this one, I think it needs a little bit more of the original E2M2 in it. Also I recognized all the renditions to E3M2 you put in there, good work! I got all secrets in the first try, which were more or less located in the same places they were in the original E2M2. All in all, very good job! I'm looking forward to play the updated version :)

@EvilNed01: in some parts I felt the detail was just right (loved the trident you put in some part, nice touch!), but in other parts I felt the detail was a little bit sub-par, like for example, here. As scifista mentioned, the teleport doesn't work. Also, when you press these pillars, a door open/door close sound occurs. Gameplay-wise I have no complaints, I loved it! Found all secrets in the first try (I missed the underground secret that connects 2 rooms though :P).

@scifista: In one word: GORGEOUS! I really have no complaints about this level. Gameplay is excellent and mapping is really elegant and classy. Found 5/6 secrets, I had to IDDT in order to find the BFG9000 one :P (BTW, my guess was right, you put a friggin' cyberdemon in the cage! LOL).

@Jaws in space: forgot to mention in my previous post that you put a berzerker pack in your level, and there are not supposed to be that kind of powerups in the first episode :P

Death Egg said:

Try tagging most of the monsters as deaf.

EDIT: Actually went around a bit of the map now, and for a newbie to mapping this is really quite good, especially the height variation and detailing! Found two tutti-frutti effects though:

http://i.imgur.com/AXEzpWv.png
http://i.imgur.com/8vsjU2A.png

Thanks,

what causes tutti-frutti effects?

Also;

thanks Scifista and Fernito for your comments!

In your case, the textures are trying to repeat but are less than 128 pixels tall, and vanilla Doom doesn't render it properly. Usually solved by lowering the ceiling/raising the floor or adding a bit of detail to obscure the effect.

I'm having a lot of fun with this project, and while I know I'm somewhat of a slower mapper compared to some of you guys, I'd like to pick up E3M2-as-E4M2 if still open. I'm not surprised it was the last one left, but I've got an idea for it...

(All slots taken!)

Never in my life have I seen a project go so fast.

Well then, with that slot taken, it looks like there's no more maps to take! God damn, I wasn't expecting them all to be taken so quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a beta by next month at this rate!

Sweet!

I think this idea is the perfect mix of allowing creativity within certain restraints, so it works well.

another question, e2m5 has a fair few sectors already in gstone/marble, dont know if too keep them the same? also can i use textures that are used in the episode as a whole or shall i just keep it specific to the map

Yes to both of those questions. I'd say it's allowable to keep an area looking similar if it fits the episode.

So since my map is pretty much in it's final form I decided to play through all of our E1 maps and give my opinion on them.

E3-1M1 by Doomkid92: Right off the bat I was turned off by the fact that there is a Cacodemon behind the first door like in E3M1, while in my map I did use some textures from other episodes I tried to not use non E1 items like the Plasma Gun, Lost Souls, & Cacodemons or Barons, as these things simply don't belong in episode 1. My next complaint is about the zig zag floor in acid, while I expected it to drop down I found my self having a lot of trouble getting through that area without taking some damage, I would suggest either raising the floor up a little of adding a few sectors to give people a better chance to make it across. I really like the next room that references the E1M1's exit it's a nice and intense fight. After that there is nothing really good or bad about the level, It's a nice blend of E1 & E3. The only other thing I would like to ask of you is that if you do get the E1M1 slot could you take the chainsaw out of your map, or at least put it in a secret area, it's really nice to force the player to pick up the chainsaw right at the beginning of my level to make for a really intense opening battle. Overall I liked the map, but because it was originally an E3 map it feels overly large and pretty tough for an opening map, in my opinion I think it would be better as the opening of E2, because then I wouldn't have any problems with the Cacodemons, or lowering floor, because E2 is supposed to be a step up in difficulty.

E4-1M1 by Traversed: Now this map is a perfect fit to open up Episode 1. I like how it Looks like E4M1, but made enough changes to make it original & on top of that it incorporated elements of E1M1 as well. Oh and it's so nice to play this map with a very reasonable amount of bad guys. Way back in 1996 this was the first Doom map I ever tried to play by myself and I died so many times, in this version I can just go through nice and quick without too much of a challenge, I love it.

E4-1M2 by Walter Confalonieri: I just downloaded the newest version of the map, & I will say that it is much nicer than the first version, but I still have a few complaints. When I first played this map I didn't notice the stairs off to the left so I just jumped off the ledge and into the acid, I thought there would be a rad suit or a door in the little hallway strait ahead , but there was nothing there, I found this slightly annoying. I ran quickly over to were the rad suit really was & then took the platform up where I was killed by Imps, that spot was pretty tight, but I won't complain too much because I could have just jumped back into the acid to avoid the fireballs. On my second attempt I found the stairs & then made it through the rest of the level without dying. A few minor complaints are that some of your rooms are kind of plain, it would be nice if you could add a few more details to make it look more interesting. This Lift seems kind of redundant & also the door nearby wont open, I looked in the editor & the line just needs to be flipped to make it work. Lastly like everyone else I will mention that wall you have to shoot to get to the red key. After walking around in frustration for a little bit I decided to shoot the barrels in that hallway, one of the bullets happened to hit the wall behind it, I think it is a very bad design if I found a required item completely by accident. A friend of mine who play tests all of my maps disliked this design as well, he just skips over this map when he plays. Also while I'm not to strict with texture alignment this really bothers me.

E4-1M4 by Saliva: Of all the maps in this episode, this map stays closest to it's original version. While that is not a bad thing, I was never a fan of the original map so I don't really like this one. The only thing I will complain about though it these pillars, it is very annoying trying to shoot something that you can't see.

E2-1M5 by Fernito: Okay I must confess I have never played the original E2M5, but if it is anything like this version, then it would easily be my favorite map form episode 2. This is my personal favorite map from this project that I've played so far, I can't talk about how it compares to E2M5, but I like all the E1M5 touches you put in there. Health, Ammo, & monster balancing is very nice, I did die right at the end in the pulsing light room, but that was only because I got surrounded by 3 demons, so there is no need to change anything there.

E4-1M6 by Death Egg: I did not like this map at all, like E$-1M4 it's not Death Eggs fault, but because of the difficulty & design of the original map, I didn't even finish this map & just skipped to the next level.

E3-1M7 by Gothic: Here is another map where I didn't like the original, but I think works very well here, a lot of the issues I had with E3M7 have been addressed, but there are still a few problems, I found the Exit are rather anticlimactic, I like the unique designs that you put into this level, the giant UAC logo is so simple & yet rather cool.

E2-1M8 by Scypek2: Well that was disappointing. This maps seems to have the same monster count as E1M8, but it is way to easy. I was expecting about 20 more Barons to be released throughout the map when I pressed the switch, so when only 2 appeared I couldn't believe it and even walked around the map to see if I could find some more. I would suggest either keeping the same monster count, but scaling this map way down, or just add a lot more monsters.

E2-1M9 by Death Egg: This map perfectly captures what E2M9 was all about, and does so with E1 monsters, great job I had lots of fun & I only died 4 times.

Overall there is a nice variety in the style of maps here, some that are close to Episode 1, some that are closer to there original map slot, but overall a nice blend. I am kind of surprised at the number of E4 maps that made it here, I expected more to come from E3. I put my vote to keep E4M1 as the opening map to this episode as it seems like a better fit. My favorites so far are E2-1M5, E4-1M1, E2-1M9, with E3-1M7 & E4-1M4 as good, & E2-1M8, E4-1M2, & E4-1M6 needing improvement. Good job guys I'm looking forward to Episode 2 now.

"E4M1 remade in the style of E2M1" is about 80% done. Should have something to post later this week.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/56320770/E2-4M1a.zip

Skill settings need more work but the map is playable now.

Let me know if it is OTT for map1 of an episode (feels borderline to me).

I just played through your E4-2M1 and here is what I have to say. I like how this map looks, you really captured the feel of E2M1 even though it has E4M1 layout. I played through on HMP and had a tough time at first and died right after I picked up the red key, but I was able to make it through on my second try. Health is well balanced, but ammo was a little tight for me I found myself fighting a lot of demons with just a pistol. Overall I didn't like it as much as your E4-1M1, but it is still a very good map.

Next you should make E4-3M1 just for fun :D

Jaws In Space said:

E3-1M1 by Doomkid92: Right off the bat I was turned off by the fact that there is a Cacodemon behind the first door like in E3M1 [...] My next complaint is about the zig zag floor in acid, while I expected it to drop down I found my self having a lot of trouble getting through that area without taking some damage.

I think what I'll do is take out all of the tougher enemies if this does end up as e1m1, as well as hide the chainsaw. About the Zig-Zag floor, i'll probably only make part of it come down, so the player doesn't have to take any damage as long as they're quick.

Good detailed feedback man!

Doomkid92 said:

I think what I'll do is take out all of the tougher enemies if this does end up as e1m1, as well as hide the chainsaw. About the Zig-Zag floor, i'll probably only make part of it come down, so the player doesn't have to take any damage as long as they're quick.

Good detailed feedback man!

I forgot to mention it, but I played your level and LOVED it design-wise (you included every important E1M1 landmark and everything felt natural, that's a very hard to accomplish task), though I agree with Jaws in Space, you should include only E1 monster/items in it.

It's too bad we have to pick only one of these (either yours or traversd's E4-1M1), as both are amazing maps (E4-1M1 made me drool with its amazing design!).

Jaws In Space said:

I just played through your E4-2M1 and here is what I have to say. I like how this map looks, you really captured the feel of E2M1 even though it has E4M1 layout. I played through on HMP and had a tough time at first and died right after I picked up the red key, but I was able to make it through on my second try. Health is well balanced, but ammo was a little tight for me I found myself fighting a lot of demons with just a pistol. Overall I didn't like it as much as your E4-1M1, but it is still a very good map.

Next you should make E4-3M1 just for fun :D

Yeh sry, skill 3 and below needs some work *L* also giving some consideration to putting green armour in non-secret position.

Thanks for the feedback :0)

I was going to post my thoughts on E2-1M1, but Jaws in Space pretty much summed up my feelings on it. Very good map, even if it's just a bit too tough at times for E2M1.

@traversd: Your map is awesome!

This project seems interesting for me (besides other things) because every mapper has his own sense, way and philosophy of "converting a map to another episode". And I think I like your "philosophy" the most of all others. As Jaws In Space mentioned, you really captured the feel of E2M1 while keeping not only the layout, but also the strategy of progress. And you did it without forced homages, which is difficult and only a minority of us mappers succeeded to do so.

Up to this day, when deciding of E1M1's fate, I was honestly hopeful your version will get there since I found it definitely better. Now I want to say your new E2M1 map must be in the resulting megawad and Doomkid92's map should take E1M1 place after it's improved.

Doomkid92, your map isn't bad at all, the gameplay is (besides the cacodemons) good, but the map has a few things in it a starter map shouldn't have. Now I don't want you to offend for me saying so much, but I believe your map would stand as a great starter map if you removed cacodemons, lost souls, chainsaw, rocket launcher, backpack, hellish pillars (replace them all with barrels), hellish textures and flats (red light and bricks), the green armor and also the whole room where it is since it's useless anyway, openable silver doors, teleporter exit, and ideally if you also redesigned the shotgun podium and the room which reminds E1M1 exit, and moved the two clip boxes near the start further so unaware player don't jump over them. I'm sorry, I know how does all this heaped complaints sound from me, I'm just notifying what I didn't like and what I hope you'll improve.

I think traversd's E4-2M1 was a little bit too difficult, but amazing map nonetheless. As for his E4-121, I already mentioned I loved it.

I would love to see both of them on the project, but given the rules I guess only one of them could be there, or am I wrong? I mean, there can be only one rendition to E4M1, isn't it?

Thanks guys. Yeh, just use the E2M1 version (I will post an update with reduced monster count etc).

Jaws In Space said:

My next complaint is about the zig zag floor in acid, while I expected it to drop down I found my self having a lot of trouble getting through that area without taking some damage, I would suggest either raising the floor up a little of adding a few sectors to give people a better chance to make it across.

The speed at which it descends was one of my favorite parts about the map, most maps don't rush you like that, especially on the first level.

Entirely Doomkid92's call, but I'd recommend removing the environmental traps. E1M1 is really about introducing the player relatively safely to the world and its inhabitants (without second guessing what's in front of them)... Mind you we are all wiser now though ;0)

It has been pointed out to me that E3M9 is now E2M9. If the intention is to make it a modification of the rebuilt E2M1 then I am ok with my remake being used as a base if that is preferred. If not, that's fine too :0)

traversd said:

It has been pointed out to me that E3M9 is now E2M9. If the intention is to make it a modification of the rebuilt E2M1 then I am ok with my remake being used as a base if that is preferred. If not, that's fine too :0)

I'll take a look at it and see.

@Fernito: Thanks for the comments. :)

Here is the new layout without monsters:
http://speedy.sh/JYptC/e3-2m2.wad

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/56320770/E2-4M1b.zip

-Dialled down difficulty
-Setup skills 1+3, dm starts and some coop monsters
-Moved GA to non-secret area (kinda replaced it with CompMap)
-Adjusted teleporting monsters in blue key room so that they is some "resistence" back at the exit

Just played through C30N9 and traversd's maps, and I have to say, I'm even more stoked for the final product now. These have such an authentic "romero / petersen" feel to them, it's awesome. After the missing enemies and items are added in to C30N9's map, I'd say these are both cooked to perfection.

@Jaws in space: forgot to mention it, but thanks for your feedback. I'm glad you liked it! :)