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Linkrulezall
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Posts: 420
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Maybe you've played something in the past that sucked major ass, but did you ever consider that there might be something good that can be pulled from it?

For example, "Club Epic!" (idgames://16846) is pointless and badly detailed, but its simple design is pretty easy to reverse-engineer and learn some basic Zdoom techniques from. For example, this wad taught me how to do slopes and 3d floors.

Anyone else know of any wads like this? Hell, even UACMN taught me some pretty cool ACS functions.

Old Post May 1 2013 23:45 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Sometimes the layout of a shitty WAD can be salvaged and turned into something that's not as shitty:

Example 1:
Crap.
Not crap.

Example 2:
Crap.
Not crap.

Example 3:
Crap.
Not crap.

Old Post May 2 2013 00:00 #
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scifista42
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BaronOfStuff said:
Sometimes the layout of a shitty WAD ALWAYS can be salvaged and turned into something that's not as shitty:

Fixed that for you. I tell you, always ;)


EDIT: Finally reached 250 posts, yeah :)

Old Post May 2 2013 00:06 #
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Obsidian
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I can't not link this.

Old Post May 2 2013 00:13 #
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Xaser
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scifista42 said:
Fixed that for you. I tell you, always ;)

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this, but mainly for the reason that some bad layouts would have to be modified so much that they can't really be considered the same any more.

At any rate, there's a lot to be said about the costs of doing such things versus the benefits. Sure, you can fix up a bad wad to be something good, but is it worth the time investment vs. using said time to make a new map from scratch?

Not to stop anyone who just wants to, of course. If you find it fun, then have at it. ;)

Old Post May 2 2013 00:30 #
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Tarnsman
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BaronOfStuff said:
Sometimes the layout of a shitty WAD can be salvaged and turned into something that's not as shitty:

Example 1:
Crap.
Not crap.

Example 2:
Crap.
Not crap.

Example 3:
Crap.
Not crap.

Detail does not make a good map. Two of those layouts are garbage.

Old Post May 2 2013 00:34 #
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scifista42
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Xaser said:
I'm not entirely sure I agree with this, but mainly for the reason that some bad layouts would have to be modified so much that they can't really be considered the same any more.

At any rate, there's a lot to be said about the costs of doing such things versus the benefits. Sure, you can fix up a bad wad to be something good, but is it worth the time investment vs. using said time to make a new map from scratch?

Not to stop anyone who just wants to, of course. If you find it fun, then have at it. ;)

You don't know you just gave me inspiration for a Mayhem map - several inspirations :)

Old Post May 2 2013 00:38 #
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Doomkid
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Okay, this map totally looks like some sort of abstract Lion's head or something.



Please tell me I'm not the only one who sees it.

Old Post May 2 2013 00:56 #
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Joshy
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You're not the only one!

Old Post May 2 2013 01:06 #
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Linkrulezall
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Obsidian said:
I can't not link this.

I myself used a few bits of Terry architecture in my first public release. (idgames://17165)

I gotta admit, it'd be interesting to see what Terry could do if he abandoned his current formula. (says someone who's played his pre-UACMN-era works)

Old Post May 2 2013 01:09 #
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40oz
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I find a lot of inspiration from wads of the 1994 era. They don't hold a candle to todays wads, but there's tons of little tricks, puzzles and ideas and examples of strange but interesting gameplay that can be reused in todays wads that tend to get overlooked.

Old Post May 2 2013 01:33 #
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Gifty
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Tarnsman said:
Detail does not make a good map. Two of those layouts are garbage.

Yeah, I second this sentiment. A lot of vanilla maps had ingenious layouts that looked crappy on paper.

Old Post May 2 2013 03:19 #
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Nixot
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Linkrulezall said:
I gotta admit, it'd be interesting to see what Terry could do if he abandoned his current formula. (says someone who's played his pre-UACMN-era works)

He had WADs before UACMN? Have you got any examples?

Old Post May 3 2013 10:26 #
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joe-ilya
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BaronOfStuff said:
Sometimes the layout of a shitty WAD can be salvaged and turned into something that's not as shitty:

Example 1:
Crap.
Not crap.

Example 2:
Crap.
Not crap.

Example 3:
Crap.
Not crap.

Did you add something to the gameplay? Or just added detail.
Reminds me of the people in the D2INO thread who say my map is crap but it has exellent gameplay.

Old Post May 3 2013 10:48 #
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bcwood16
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Yea, the extra detail may make it look better, but if the gameplay is crap then its a crap map.

I have only recently got into Doom mapping, but used to do loads on 'Unreal Tournament 2003' mapping. I found the best way to make it a good map is to create the whole map in BSP, not worrying at all about look. Then play the game and check the running about, jumping and overall feel is good.

Once I was pretty happy with it I then spent the rest of my time making it look all pretty and give it that wow factor......hopefully.

Im guessing the same can be applied to Doom maps. That way if something doesn't work you haven't wasted too much time. Also I guess if you spent lots of time making a part look great, but it plays rubbish you are more inclined to not want to change it....hoping its not 'that bad'

As for really rubbish maps I guess you could take from it a lesson not to makes your own maps like that lol

Old Post May 3 2013 12:07 #
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BaronOfStuff
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joe-ilya said:
Did you add something to the gameplay? Or just added detail.
Reminds me of the people in the D2INO thread who say my map is crap but it has exellent gameplay.

Oh. Yeah I changed/shifted almost all thing placements, and altered how the maps unfold quite a bit; the originals were typically 1994 with "lump of monsters" fights and either "run straight from A-B" or nonsensical progression (one of them didn't even have an exit). I'm not saying that what I've done has resulted in bestmapsever.wad, simply maps that aren't complete and utter shit.

Old Post May 3 2013 12:49 #
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EvilNed
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Tarnsman said:
Detail does not make a good map. Two of those layouts are garbage.

You can't possibly make that judgement from an overhead view. You have no idea of any height variation, eventual traps or tough fights.

There's more a layout than just a 2D plane.

Old Post May 3 2013 13:41 #
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40oz
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EvilNed said:
You can't possibly make that judgement from an overhead view. You have no idea of any height variation, eventual traps or tough fights.

There's more a layout than just a 2D plane.

Gotta agree with that sentiment. I'm not sure which map was the good one but I hope it's not the symmetrical "lion's head" one.

Old Post May 3 2013 14:19 #
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buttspit
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Nixot said:
He had WADs before UACMN? Have you got any examples?

Yeah, but the only one I'm aware of is Ghoul's Forest 4 on the idgames archives.

But knowing Linkrulezall, I knew he'd bring up Terry in this thread :P Scifista42's point, which derives from Xaser's point, pretty much sums it up for me.

Old Post May 3 2013 15:28 #
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Antroid
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If you look around Doom General you'll see that I'm currently LPing DTS-T, which many people would say is a bad wad (even if I personally disagree). I fully admit that the execution in that wad is sub-par by the usual standards, and if I was being nitpicky I would spend a LOT of time pointing out everything and talking about how it could've been fixed or improved. However, playing it made me think about some aspects of level design that I thought were pretty much figured out. By the end of the LP I'm gonna do a summary video all the ideas about map design that DTS-T made me think of. So far they tend to lean towards things that make environments and layouts seem more natural by not strictly following some guidelines such as: arbitrary level of detail on every surface no matter how appropriate it is, having all optional areas strictly profitable and useful, leading the player like a headless chicken towards the exact required path, etc. DTS-T, even if it's no masterpiece by any merit, made me remember that over-reliance on these sort of rules makes for very formulaic and boring levels, and games too.

Although maybe it's the difference between people's approaches to enjoying games, where some basically go "alright, I've got an hour, now entertain me with whatever you got as much as you can" and some go "alright, this one seems interesting, I will devote some of my time to try and make the best out of what the game has in store".

Old Post May 3 2013 17:35 #
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Magnusblitz
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40oz said:
Gotta agree with that sentiment. I'm not sure which map was the good one but I hope it's not the symmetrical "lion's head" one.

I'm assuming the first one is the "good one", since the symmetrical lion's head one looks like a DM level, and the third one looks awfully linear.

Old Post May 3 2013 21:30 #
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Linkrulezall
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Nixot said:
He had WADs before UACMN? Have you got any examples?

http://web.archive.org/web/20080317...s.co2games.com/
It's all here.

buttspit said:
But knowing Linkrulezall, I knew he'd bring up Terry in this thread :P

Well what can I say? It'd totally fit the thread even if it didn't come from me.

Old Post May 4 2013 20:39 #
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Lotica
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Obsidian said:
I can't not link this.

Terry has a good start if he would stop his trolling nonsense. Honestly, I do laugh at his trolling attempts, but at this point, it does get a bit annoying.

Old Post May 4 2013 20:47 #
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Linkrulezall
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Lotica said:
if he would stop his trolling nonsense.

It ain't happening anytime soon.

Old Post May 4 2013 20:52 #
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Lotica
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Linkrulezall said:
It ain't happening anytime soon.

Yeah, I would figure. :P

Old Post May 4 2013 21:32 #
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