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schwerpunk said:
I just had a silly thought... We already have a Doom64 Builder, right? How about porting Doom's levels to Doom64 instead of the other way around? Doom64 has some really advanced features, and really doesn't get enough love.


I would love to see that!

Old Post May 25 2013 08:27 #
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Avoozl
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It would be cool if it were possible to add an extra difficulty level which adds the Doom 2 left out monsters, but unfortunately it's not.

schwerpunk said:
I just had a silly thought... We already have a Doom64 Builder, right? How about porting Doom's levels to Doom64 instead of the other way around?

But unfortunately there's no converters for the map formats so the only way is to open both the original and 64 builders at the same time, then copy the map from 64 builder into the original builder.

Last edited by Avoozl on May 25 2013 at 08:54

Old Post May 25 2013 08:35 #
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Obsidian
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Considering the surplus of frames, I could probably recreate the Motherdemon fairly well. From what I can surmise it has 3 attacks:

1. 3 fire trails that launch you into the air(might be tricky).
2. A volley of 4 homing projectiles straight after attack 1.
3. The ability to reanimate dead monsters: it says in the Wiki that they get made stronger when they're reanimated, but I don't see how I can pull that off.

Also, I wonder if you can make sprites naturally translucent instead of having it in their coding. If someone can enlighten me on that, I could probably have a decent-looking Nightmare Imp up and running fairly quickly.

Old Post May 25 2013 10:00 #
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Ragnor
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I believe the reanimation thing is storyline only, but I've not beaten D64 so I wouldn't know about that. It does say "Beware of the homing rockets though, as when they explode, they will send out a barrage of smaller fireballs in all directions.", so that's probably your 3rd attack.

Resurrection would be cool though, given the lack of the Arch-Vile.

If the imp cant be translucent, would a recolour be better than spectre fuzz? Aside from translucency, it seems its only change is the fireball speed

EDIT: Looking at the regular imp's D64 version:

"This version of the Imp also features discrete animations for melee attacks versus ranged attacks, similar to the Revenant in other games. This means that unlike other versions of the game, the Imp will not throw a fireball if his melee attack misses the player (since in other versions, the attack type - fireball or melee - is determined by the victim's proximity at the end of the attack animation)."
I guess that feature is tied to animations.

Last edited by Ragnor on May 25 2013 at 10:47

Old Post May 25 2013 10:40 #
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Ragnor
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Double post: I just IDCLEVed to 28 to see her in D64EX

She only has two attacks, four revenant-like homing rockets that are fired two on each side that travel for a short distance then home in you extremely fast, and a three way firetrail attack that will indeed throw you like an arch-vile explosion. I didnt see any further fireballs from the revenant rocket explosions unless thats a D64EX bug. Her attack speed is ludicrous too.

If she could resurrect things, that'd be overkill, she already feels like the ultimate boss

Nightmare Imp's fireballs are purple btw

Last edited by Ragnor on May 25 2013 at 12:19

Old Post May 25 2013 12:13 #
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Da Werecat
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I think it would be fun to have an imp with fuzz effect.

By the way, since Mother Demon simply cannot have attacks as powerful as she had in the original game (DEHACKED is quite limited), it would be an interesting experiment to give her resurrecting power.

The only problem lies in sprites. A simple Paint-style mashup won't work here.

Old Post May 25 2013 14:24 #
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schwerpunk
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Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I can't seem to open the Doom64.wad in Doom Builder64. Would be nice to explore the finer details of the level I'm trying to mimic.

Da Werecat said:
I think it would be fun to have an imp with fuzz effect.

Old Post May 25 2013 15:03 #
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Gez
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Kinda OT, but:

Da Werecat said:
I think it would be fun to have an imp with fuzz effect.

There are fuzzy imps in Mars Doom. (Also completely ridiculous anime damsel in distress.) They do work well.

Old Post May 25 2013 17:46 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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schwerpunk said:
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I can't seem to open the Doom64.wad in Doom Builder64. Would be nice to explore the finer details of the level I'm trying to mimic.

Doom64's maps are stored as separate wads in doom64.wad. Open it in Slade and extract them.

Old Post May 25 2013 18:07 #
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Death Egg
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Ragnor said:
If the imp cant be translucent, would a recolour be better than spectre fuzz? Aside from translucency, it seems its only change is the fireball speed

It should also be mentioned they're exactly twice the speed of a normal Imp too.

Old Post May 25 2013 18:32 #
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Da Werecat
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I'd like to reserve MAP07. If no one else wants it.

Old Post May 25 2013 19:16 #
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Obsidian
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Ragnor said:
Double post: I just IDCLEVed to 28 to see her in D64EX

She only has two attacks, four revenant-like homing rockets that are fired two on each side that travel for a short distance then home in you extremely fast, and a three way firetrail attack that will indeed throw you like an arch-vile explosion. I didnt see any further fireballs from the revenant rocket explosions unless thats a D64EX bug. Her attack speed is ludicrous too.

If she could resurrect things, that'd be overkill, she already feels like the ultimate boss

Nightmare Imp's fireballs are purple btw

If I remember correctly, the Motherdemon was altered for D64EX to be more difficult. I looked at the map Kaiser made with the Motherdemon as the boss, but that one just belched Mancubus fireballs. :D A shame it can't reanimate, I've always dug that ability.

Old Post May 26 2013 00:52 #
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Ragnor
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Just did Map 25,26 and 27, ie the normally unaccessible "fun" maps. These will need to be retooled quite a bit, maybe into full boss maps?

By default two wont work, and even then would be too small and bland.

Cat and Mouse is fine and can work as an E1 boss map, only problem would be how many weapons the player might have at that point. It took me forever to beat the cyberdemon with the provided rocket launcher, and I must have died about 50 times, really felt like a true boss fight, even more so than E2M8. Hardcore is pretty much "fight loads of mancubi, pick up megasphere to summon arachnotrons, kill them to fight cyberdemon" all in a very bland metal arena thats kind of like a figure 8. Playground is a lot like Dead Simple, you fight Arachnotrons on pillars in a small arena, then a cyberdemon, then mancubi.

Old Post May 27 2013 04:16 #
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Death Egg
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Either one of the latter two sound like they could make a good MAP08 (EDIT: Sorry, I meant MAP07), unless they're too difficult for a map slot that early.

Last edited by Death Egg on May 27 2013 at 04:32

Old Post May 27 2013 04:24 #
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Ragnor
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Before anything else in this post, I played your Staging Area, Death Egg, and its pretty great, the opening screenshot didn't really do it justice. Lighting is a bit too high for me, but its not the oppressive Doom 64, so its alright. Without Hectic and its bizarre access method, some of those barrels should probably be moved around or removed though

Map 8 is the final map of D64's E1. If you dont mind, I can pull stuff up from doomwiki and ingame to help with the mapset. As a "Doom 64 in Doom 2", lot of reinterpretation will need to happen, along with edits.

I feel a little like im stepping on toes here, but I think its best if this kind of stuff gets sorted out quickly

WALL OF TEXT INCOMING

Heres a possible rough mapset:
Episode 1: Techbase (originally Map 1 to 8, with one secret level)
Map 1: Staging Area
Map 2: The Terraformer
Map 3: Main Engineering (introduces Cacodemon, Lost Soul and Nightmare Imp)
Map 4: Holding Area (introduces Hell Knight, orignially had secret exit to Outpost Omega
(order needs to be determined from here)
Outpost Omega (Introduces mancubi and pain elementals, originally had a "demon key" for the Unmaker
Tech Centre (originally map 5)
Alpha Quadrant (originally map 6, introduces Barons, and outside of Outpost Omega, introduces Pain Elementals)
Research Lab (originally map 7)
Final Outpost (originally map 8 and the final tech base level, maybe it should fit Map 10? End fight is a baron/knight battle that will raise a staircase after killing them all)
Map 7: Even Simpler (If this works exactly like (Dead Simple, it has to be in this slot. It was the first Hell map and originally map 9, also introduced the mancubus outside of Outpost Omega)
Map 11: Cat and Mouse (Seems like a fitting E1 end, might need a bit of an expansion or editing. Originally Map 25)

Episode 2 and 3: Hell
Map 12: The Bleeding (originally map 10)
Map 13: Terror Core (originally map 11)
Map 14: The Lair (originally a secret level accessed from Altar of Pain, Introduces Arachnotrons, and like all secret levels, had a demon key. Originally map 30)
Map 15: Altar of Pain (Lets bump it down a slot to make use of its existing secret exit for Map 31. Originally map 12
Map 16: Dark citadel (originally map 13)
Map 17: Eye of the Storm (originally map 14)
Map 18: Dark Entries (orignally map 15)
Map 19: Hardcore (Would need extensive editing to be hellish instead of metal staircases, Originally map 26)
Map 20: Blood Keep (To provide a gap between cybers. Originally map 16)

Map 21: Watch Your Step (originally map 17, iirc introduced cyberdemons in D64)
Map 22: Spawned Fear (originally map 18, has a secret exit that will need to be repurposed)
Map 23: The Spiral (originally map 19)
Map 24: Breakdown (originally map 20)
Map 25: Playground (Might as well get this one out of the way, originally map 27)
Map 26: Pitfalls (originally map 21)
Map 27: Burnt Offerings (originally map 22)
Map 28: Unholy Temple (Originally map 23, had an interesting code sequence thing that will need a workaround)
Map 29: No Escape (Originally map 24. This was the second to last map, the map ended upon the deaths of two cyberdemons, that will need editing)
Map 30: The Absolution (Death Egg's claimed this, the fight originally revolved around waves of enemies and the ability to block the spawns by using the demon keys. Killing everything lowered a box with the Mother Demon)

Map 31: Hectic (The "fuck you" map of Doom 64, originally a tiny map that threw traps and devious assholery at you, with the option to be a baby and quit the level via a normal exit, completing the level and using the hard exit would unlock special features, with its two exits and secret levle status, its ideal for level 31, the hard exit can be used to access level 32. Originally map 32
Map 32: In the Void (Probably the most unique of the secret levels, stil, I feel it might not be enough for the amount of effort Hectic requires, unless Hectic is simplified or this level expanded. Originally map 31)

Let me know what you guys think of this

Old Post May 27 2013 05:57 #
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Death Egg
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Yeah, I do agree that the first room isn't exactly impressive since the things that make it notable in Doom 64 aren't in it. (the ambient lighting and the "3D floors") I did think I might be making it a bit too light.

I think the list you posted seems to be fairly good, but maybe someone more knowledgeable in Doom 64 would really offer better advice. (I must admit, before starting this, I had not played much of Doom 64)

Old Post May 27 2013 07:26 #
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Z86
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Damn I want to do this!

Hellbound had some Doom64 inspired maps, though they were mixed with other inspiration sources, but I want to create something very much alike. I'll take MAP05 (Tech Center), MAP10 (The Bleeding) and MAP14 (Eye of the Storm)

Old Post May 27 2013 09:08 #
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Obsidian
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Slightly bad news: I need three projectiles in order to make the 2 new monsters and I only have 2, 1 of which is the Spawn Cube and therefore kind ofextremely iffy to work with. Anyone got a workaround? I'm thinking of giving the Nightmare Imp the HeadAttack parameter, but that still leaves the Motherdemon. Meh. :/

Old Post May 27 2013 10:18 #
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Ragnor
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Death Egg said:
Yeah, I do agree that the first room isn't exactly impressive since the things that make it notable in Doom 64 aren't in it. (the ambient lighting and the "3D floors") I did think I might be making it a bit too light.

I think the list you posted seems to be fairly good, but maybe someone more knowledgeable in Doom 64 would really offer better advice. (I must admit, before starting this, I had not played much of Doom 64)

Ouch :p I've been playing it almost nonstop recently to research this stuff to help out!

But yeah, where's Kaiser when you need him? Haven't seem him around since Timegate was killed off.

Old Post May 27 2013 10:24 #
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Da Werecat
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So it seems that "Even Simpler" should be retextured to fit the first episode's theme. Interesting.

Old Post May 27 2013 11:47 #
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_bruce_
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Nice!!!

Would love to provide a map for this - will have to scan through the originals.

Old Post May 27 2013 12:03 #
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Fisk
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I feel required to port In the Void. It's one of my favorite maps of all time and I'd love to port it over to Doom2.exe if nobody else minds

Old Post May 27 2013 18:26 #
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Death Egg
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Slightly updated Staging Area in the OP to be a tad darker, removed three of the more useless barrels, and made line 992 impassible so the player can't walk on it like in Rayzik's FDA.

Old Post May 27 2013 22:27 #
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BaronOfStuff
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While I appreciate Obsidian's attempts at recreating some of the D64 stuff via DEH work, wouldn't this feel more 'vanilla'/'official' and also give the whole experience an even fresher feel if it was using the stock Doom II bestiary (well that almost sounds like a contradiction) in its entirety as opposed to sacrificing chunks for the sake of trying to cram as much of the D64 experience in as possible under such a limited capacity? It's already been decided that only the stock textures/flats should be used, so why mess with enemies?

For example, as much as I loathe the incessant use of Revenants in so many PWADs, they could still be used pretty well in maps like Hectic or The Spiral, instead of all that wall-launched projectile bullshit in the former or just completely worthless, easily-dodged straight attacks in the latter. Arch-Viles would also be another element that would change the regular ol' D64 map flow into something 'new'. Hell, even something as basic as the Chaingunner could liven up some of the early early maps.

Of course going down this route would mean that the endboss would (probably) be yet ANOTHER IoS fight... but I just think that hacking out bits and pieces of the Doom II content for the sake of one boss and a monster that's barely an improvement over the basic Imp just doesn't really seem right. Maybe I am in the minority here though, I don't know.

Old Post May 27 2013 23:21 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Yeah, I definitely agree with Baron.

Old Post May 27 2013 23:26 #
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Death Egg
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Maybe the Nightmare Imps placement could be a Chaingunner normally, and the Dehacked patch could be optional to replace them with the Nightmare Imps?

EDIT: On a side note, I'll probably give up MAP28, never was good at Doom II boss maps so I'm unsure why I chose it in the first place. Here's what I did so far.

Last edited by Death Egg on May 28 2013 at 00:15

Old Post May 27 2013 23:47 #
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Fisk
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Death Egg said:
Maybe the Nightmare Imps placement could be a Chaingunner normally, and the Dehacked patch could be optional to replace them with the Nightmare Imps?

EDIT: On a side note, I'll probably give up MAP28, never was good at Doom II boss maps so I'm unsure why I chose it in the first place. Here's what I did so far.

I would gladly pick up MAP28 for you. Can you upload it to Sendspace for me? My ISP will not allow me to access Mediafire.

Old Post May 28 2013 01:17 #
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Death Egg
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Sure thing.

Old Post May 28 2013 01:19 #
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Fisk
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Here's my version. It's beatable after you close all the Demon Gates.

Instead of requiring the Demon Keys, you must sacrifice your health to close the gates.

Old Post May 28 2013 03:00 #
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Death Egg
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Pretty damn good interpretation, if on the short side. Then again, not much that can be really done about that I suppose. Maybe removing/replacing the Invulnerability sphere will make it more difficult?

Old Post May 28 2013 03:19 #
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