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Mechadon
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This is an interesting project idea, although personally I'd love to see some maps made for Doom 64 (but I digress :P).

Anywho, speaking of dehacked and monster creation and alterations, I've looked towards creating a Motherdemon-style monster before. It's not possible to get a 100% copy of the behavior, but you should probably be able to get fairly close using Rev rockets. The thing I wanted to do is create a new projectile that had a similar behavior to the fire trail thing that she shoots out. But my implementation was super wonky and prone to bugs (I was replacing the BossSpit cube in my test, and then later the Lost Soul). The short of it is, I'm not sure it is really feasible to make a new projectile with that behavior unless some dehacked wizard comes along and figures out a super hacky way to do it.

The Motherdemon's fire trail attack always reminded me of what the Archvile's attack might have been if it were included in D64's beastiary. It's fire, and it flings you up in the air just like the vanilla Archvile attack. So with that in mind, you could possibly just use the Archvile's attack sequence hand-in-hand with a volley of Rev tracing fireballs and you'd have yourself a pretty threatening monster (albeit not quite the same as the D64 behavior, but probably about as close as you can get). A targeted fire+tracer attack all at once sounds like it would be pretty challenging to deal with to me.

Will you guys also be adding the other enhanced monster as well? Like the Nightmare Imp and so on? There are a lot of monsters you can sacrifice since many of them weren't in D64, so that should open up a ton of frames and a few things slots.

Anyways, I guess I don't have a ton to add to the discussion. I just wanted to bring up my experiences with trying to create new projectiles and, in particular, ones that acted like the Motherdemon's fire trail attack.

Good luck with the project :)

Old Post 05-28-13 03:31 #
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Death Egg
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Thanks for stopping by, Mech. Big fan of Vela Pax. :) I was thinking of porting the Nightmare Imp over as well, yes, though I'm thinking of now having him optional, with the chaingunner replacing him if you don't load the wad's necessary for him, for those who would rather play with all of the original bestiary. Though that raises the question of what would happen if we made the Mother Demon also optional...

EDIT: Can anyone with good graphic artist skills perhaps convert this to the Doom pallete without making it look like crap? Or, maybe redraw it to fit id's style more instead, if possible.

http://i.imgur.com/GTC5tDV.png

Last edited by Death Egg on 05-28-13 at 04:26

Old Post 05-28-13 03:53 #
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Fisk
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http://i.imgur.com/yPxvT6d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/smQRPbc.jpg

Here's some new shots. If I could make a request, I would REALLY appreciate a single solid black flat and solid black texture. Otherwise... I really don't think this is working out like I'd wanted.

Old Post 05-28-13 06:16 #
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Death Egg
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Well, if you could, maybe make the sectors outside where the "void" is as dark as possible so that it appears as pitch black. If that won't work I suppose I could think of having those black textures instead, but I was hoping to stick with stock textures.

Old Post 05-28-13 06:34 #
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Vermil
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The first map of HacX does exactly this to achieve a fake night sky.

Old Post 05-28-13 06:50 #
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Fisk
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Death Egg said:
Well, if you could, maybe make the sectors outside where the "void" is as dark as possible so that it appears as pitch black. If that won't work I suppose I could think of having those black textures instead, but I was hoping to stick with stock textures.


It's just that in my opinion, those screenshots are lacking with the regular Doom2 sky1. If you think it's against the point of the project, I will try my damnest, but it would be much less of a pain to just have one black texture.

The way the map is built does not allow me to do anything reasonable with, say, CEIL5_1.

Old Post 05-28-13 07:10 #
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Death Egg
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Well, if you use a dark flat like CEIL5_1 and texture the walls instead of using the sky, darkening the sector should make it appear black anyways.

Old Post 05-28-13 07:12 #
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Fisk
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Edited my post right as soon as you posted, sorry :P Using CEIL5_1 is just out of the question. It plain doesn't work.

Old Post 05-28-13 07:12 #
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Death Egg
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Ah, hm, damn, I suppose see how it goes without using black textures and use them if really necessary. I still feel there may be a map editing trick or something that could be used but we'll see how it ends up.

Old Post 05-28-13 07:15 #
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Fisk
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http://i.imgur.com/Rnlh6zk.jpg

Hot damn does this look a lot better and a lot more atmospheric like In the Void.

Old Post 05-28-13 07:50 #
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Ragnor
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Death Egg said:
I was thinking of porting the Nightmare Imp over as well, yes, though I'm thinking of now having him optional, with the chaingunner replacing him if you don't load the wad's necessary for him, for those who would rather play with all of the original bestiary. Though that raises the question of what would happen if we made the Mother Demon also optional...


Dude, that will throw all balance out the window, the chaingunner and an imp with a fireball thats twice as fast are VERY different monsters.

If your going to have two modes, might I suggest the original cast mode ie pure vanilla, and version thats truer to D64 with the nightmare imp and mother demon, and Unmaker? You'd need to use an enhanced port for the second mode, but its better than half-assing mode 2.

Ive been playing the original game dead seriously for a while now, instead of the usual dicking around with stuff. Theres a lot to live up to.

EDIT:
The void sky thing reminds me, your not going to use the default skies are you? D64's E1 (Map 1 to 8 + 29) is a techbase in space, with a starry sky, and the rest of the game is in Hell. Hell levels with a city in the background are going to look really weird otherwise.

Old Post 05-28-13 10:27 #
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Avoozl
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I'm not so sure how I'm going to go about my map due to the original using a stary sky with the light projecting through the windows.

Old Post 05-28-13 10:31 #
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Z86
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I started MAP05 yesterday, basing it on Doom64 TC's map.

I'll get rid of sky tricks (fake 3d stuff), and will only slightly deviate from the vertex layout.

Also I wonder,
Nightmare Imp = 1 Chaingunner or Nightmare Imp = 2 Normal Imps?

(ofc this is assuming that if there is no DEH)

Old Post 05-28-13 11:02 #
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Da Werecat
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It would be really weird to not include any new skies with a project like that. So I think the situation with the void level should be easily solvable. You'll just need a seamless sky that will fit both hellish maps and the void map.

Old Post 05-28-13 11:53 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Da Werecat said:
It would be really weird to not include any new skies with a project like that. So I think the situation with the void level should be easily solvable. You'll just need a seamless sky that will fit both hellish maps and the void map.


Plutonia's SKY3 should work for that, with or without recolouring.

What the fuck is that sky supposed to be anyway? Lumps of raw meat?

Old Post 05-28-13 12:15 #
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Alfonzo
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BaronOfStuff said:
What the fuck is that sky supposed to be anyway? Lumps of raw meat?
Rose petals. The demons are celebrating the sanctity of your marriage with Hell.

Old Post 05-28-13 12:23 #
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Da Werecat
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http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae293/da_werecat/Doom/64PIC1.png


BaronOfStuff said:
What the fuck is that sky supposed to be anyway? Lumps of raw meat?

Manual was describing it as "fleshy", if I'm not confusing anything.

Old Post 05-28-13 12:44 #
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_bruce_
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After scanning through the maps, I would like to re/create

Map20/Breakdown.

@Werecat: logo's looking great - like it's made of bronze.

Old Post 05-28-13 13:30 #
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Ragnor
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That's the interpic right?

Anyway, heres what E1's sky should be like:

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o181/Ekerezan/2013-05-29_00001_zps4cd3c8c6.jpg

(Sorry if its too dark, D64 is like that even on max brightness. Let me know if its too big)
It's a moonbase, a starry sy like in the Master Levels, with rocky mountains at the bottom.

The hell levels use all kinds of skies, what ones would be preferred out of the ones that would be usable? I quite like the one in The Lair (purple sky, with mountains)

Old Post 05-28-13 13:56 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Wait, are you going to just rip and convert the skies? Or recreate them somewhat with the PC resources?

Old Post 05-28-13 14:14 #
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Da Werecat
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_bruce_ said:
@Werecat: logo's looking great - like it's made of bronze.

Thanks, but I think that it will look worse in the game, because it will be stretched vertically.

This, on the other hand, was resized specifically for Doom's proportions:

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae293/da_werecat/Doom/64TITLE0.png

Old Post 05-28-13 14:23 #
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Gez
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Da Werecat said:
Thanks, but I think that it will look worse in the game, because it will be stretched vertically.

This, on the other hand, was resized specifically for Doom's proportions:



I'm gonna pimp out SLADE 3 which, in its SVN builds, lets you apply aspect ratio correction in its picture viewer, so you can look at how a graphic will look in the game.
http://i.imgur.com/mmzTe1f.gif

Old Post 05-28-13 14:44 #
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Da Werecat
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I'm using Photoshop to apply correction, but thanks anyway. Should be useful.

Old Post 05-28-13 14:59 #
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Death Egg
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BaronOfStuff said:
Wait, are you going to just rip and convert the skies? Or recreate them somewhat with the PC resources?


I was thinking of using the Doom 64 resources to create the skies, myself. Here's the space texture and mountain range used for that specific sky Ragnor showed:

http://i.imgur.com/PkZ0sfH.png
http://i.imgur.com/77J6kxk.png

I'll grab the cloud texture and the other two mountain ranges in a sec.

EDIT: Here:

http://i.imgur.com/B4V1fPl.png
http://i.imgur.com/iQwZc8d.png
http://i.imgur.com/tQ6F3Ql.png

Last edited by Death Egg on 05-28-13 at 20:40

Old Post 05-28-13 20:30 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Death Egg said:


I was thinking of using the Doom 64 resources to create the skies, myself.


Don't. The styles completely clash.

Old Post 05-28-13 20:47 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Dragonsbrethren said:

Don't. The styles completely clash.



In that case:
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1382/dosday.pnghttp://imageshack.us/a/img854/9631/doeday.pnghttp://imageshack.us/a/img545/4652/donday.pnghttp://imageshack.us/a/img832/2637/dowday.png

Have this crud I just threw together.

Old Post 05-28-13 21:04 #
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Da Werecat
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Well, at least the night sky can be used as a placeholder.

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae293/da_werecat/Doom/DOOM03.png

Old Post 05-28-13 21:10 #
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Mechadon
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Just throwing in a few more of my pennies into this discussion, heh.

I agree that using ripped Doom 64 resources is probably not the way to go. Well it really depends on the actual goals of the project, which seem to be a bit wishy-washy at the moment. But I will say that Doom 64 resources mixed with vanilla Doom resources are going to create some awkward clashes.

First I think you guys should decide on how this project is going to reinterpret Doom 64. Are you going to go pure vanilla both in terms of port compatibility and resources? If you do that, there's going to have to be a lot of room for reinterpretations because the vanilla resources don't really match up to the same settings found in Doom 64. Personally I think it would be more interesting to fudge the strict interpretation mindset and allow for a few custom textures and stuff - mostly in regards to recreating certain key resources found in Doom 64, but in vanilla Doom's style. If your going to add in some of the extra enhanced monsters, it follows that adding some extra resources would make sense.

For example, someone can make a new sky texture that is the "space sky with mountains", but have it match the vanilla style. There may be some existing custom resources out there that already fill in this need. Or, alternatively, it might be possible to edit the Doom 64 resources to the point where they don't clash as bad.

Although to a point, this approach is a bit unfeasible. For example, I'm not sure it is going to be easy to find someone willing to remake the Motherdemon sprites to better match vanilla Doom's style. In that case, your probably better off ripping the sprite...it's not perfect, but it is definitely waaaay less work.

Also in regards to the dehacked, I think you should decide to either go one way or the other. Setting up the project to work both with and without a patch for enhanced/new monsters will be a really big pain to balance. Having a "special edition" version which adds things like the Unmaker in ZDoom is probably an ok thing to do so long as the maps aren't made to rely on the inclusion of said Unmaker. If you want to bump up to MBF, you could possibly get away with adding an Unmaker-ish weapon to the stock weapons using the beta BFG codepointers and projectiles. That probably goes outside the bounds of your goals though :P

Those are just my thoughts. If I were running this project, I would probably do this - recreate the enhanced monsters using the extra frames from the unused monsters, add in the new sky textures in the vanilla style, probably rip the Motherdemon sprites (unless someone is willing to come forward and make new sprites), and either make new textures/sprites as needed using stock resources or new resources in the vanilla style. From there the maps could just be vanilla-ized versions of the layouts from Doom 64, possibly with new bits and some reinterpreted versions of some areas (which is probably going to be mandatory since vanilla can't do some of the things that Doom 64 can). I'd probably also go Boom compatibility just for the easier dehacked editing and inclusion of extra map editing features...buuut that's more of a personal preference than anything. Most of you guys will probably prefer pure vanilla, which is probably better for creativity in the long run :)

Old Post 05-28-13 21:27 #
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Da Werecat
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Personally, I wouldn't add anything at all, except skies and usual artwork such as TITLEPIC.

And DEHACKED patch for level names and story progression.

And Nightmare Imp, ok. Maybe. But I would think twice.

Old Post 05-28-13 21:54 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Not really on-side for DEH'ing things up excessively to include the exclusive monsters.


I mean, if I wanted that experience, I'd just play Doom64. Adding them here just seems somewhat redundant.

Old Post 05-28-13 21:59 #
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