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mouldy
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My favourite colour is red (discuss)

Old Post 06-19-13 19:19 #
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Da Werecat
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Red is so 1994. You should move on to purple.

Old Post 06-19-13 19:26 #
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CorSair
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schwerpunk said:
Anyway, some new textures are alright, but 90% of the time I'm sure the stock textures would work just fine.

Like The Eye.

Old Post 06-19-13 19:30 #
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myk
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Feniks said:
My take on this is that people just want to make and play Doom maps, not Quake ones or something completely different.
And if DOOM's gameplay is good, you don't necessarily need to change it to have fun. I'd say that what Wordy says means that the game has good play potential if you modify it, but that its core gameplay sucks. This is shown by the fact that he implies that WADs that deviate toward Boom features, such as Vanguard, tend to be better. Like you need to add features or modify the game to ensure play is good or better, and if you tend to rely on vanilla you will fail.

Old Post 06-19-13 19:35 #
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Antroid
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Actually I think he specified that the gameplay is the only thing that he wants to be kept vanilla or close. I'm pretty sure his wishes were all concerning the aesthetics, and maybe partly layouts?

Old Post 06-19-13 19:49 #
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mouldy
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Da Werecat said:
Red is so 1994. You should move on to purple.


Purple was so much more red before blue came along.

Old Post 06-19-13 19:51 #
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myk
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Antroid said:
Actually I think he specified that the gameplay is the only thing that he wants to be kept vanilla or close.
It's like he uses an advanced engine, like ZDoom or even PrBoom, and thinks Boom is vanilla.


I'm pretty sure his wishes were all concerning the aesthetics, and maybe partly layouts?
He's trying to blame a supposed nostalgia or traditionalism on why he thinks WADs aren't good now, making a wordy mess of his argument by trying too hard.

Old Post 06-19-13 20:05 #
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Antroid
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myk said:
~~making a wordy mess of his argument~~

I get it! :D

Old Post 06-19-13 20:29 #
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Wordy
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Antroid brought to question some of my points rightly, (I was wrong to imply the 'we' when I'd stated it was just my opinion) and in this case is right again on my opinions regarding game-play and aesthetics / layout.

You're misinterpreting left and right Myk, and taking a lot for granted too. You've so far given three posts to an attack-dog style attitude which indicates that I've caused you some form of distress, which was not my intention.

This was at its core a statement of my own personal preferences which hoped to kick start a discussion on what I see as certain mapping trends which favour vanilla aesthetics and layouts (which do to some degree also have effects on gameplay).
I questioned if the focus of mappers within the community should be on emulating these restraints, or instead on producing maps which go beyond these limits while still maintaining, at its core, traditional Doom gameplay.

Moving on from this, I saw the point made that limits like 32x32, vanilla limitations and so on provide 'options for creativity'. While I agree with this to an extent (I really enjoyed Claustrophobia 1 and 2), this goes back to my initial point that I'd rather just see a new wad being made which doesn't choose to limit itself in these ways, and instead just being creative full stop, in all the ways which enhance the experience of Doom as a whole while keeping the core gameplay intact.

In a way this tries to address some concerns raised by other members of the community which listed Speed of Doom as the most recent proper quality megawad. While not disparaging the brilliant efforts of those who do choose to emulate vanilla constraints, textures or whichever limitation they choose, I and others would like to see efforts less on making maps with artificial limitations, and more on the next Scythe, Vanguard, or AV. Something which, rather than providing a novel distraction or nostalgic attraction, gives us the next creative and masterful megawad in Doom's long and illustrious history of wad making.

Old Post 06-19-13 20:41 #
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dobu gabu maru
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mouldy said:
My favourite colour is red (discuss)


Blue is better, much more elegant and sublime. I think, however, we can agree any color beats brown.

Old Post 06-19-13 20:42 #
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Jayextee
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This isn't turning out to be much of a discussion.

You know why I like Vanilla projects in general? Clutter. Or, the lack of it. I'm getting on a bit in years (actually, 32. Not too shabby) and having taken a couple of art and design-related courses, I have a bit of an eye for aesthetics. Well-done visuals please me immensely. Clutter, however, does not.

When the WAD club covered Community Chest 4, I gave it a go. I suffered what they call 'megaWAD fatigue' pretty early on, and I factor this to something the community calls 'sector soup'. Overdetail in places.

Detail is good, but used sparingly is even better. To litter a tech-base with lights on every ceiling and seams on every floor and computers on every wall and crates in every corner, is taking the idea to ridiculous extremes. And of course, with ceiling+floor heights being the limiting variables, there's a limit to what can be done with them.

Of course, you can break these limits with your own textures. Shit, let's have ninety different types of crate so the idea of placing them idly in corridors doesn't get old. Except it does.

Keeping down to the Vanilla limitations, for me at least, forces you to pick and choose your visual elements whilst mapping. So no crates in MAP01, let's save them for later and just focus on more organic structures. By MAP03, we can't use those either so let's... I don't know. A computer panel hanging off the wall? Yeah, can do. By MAP06 computers are well and truly out of fashion, let's play more with lights. Et cetera.

I know, I'm just using the base trope as an example but it applies elsewhere.

With textures, limiting your palette makes the end result richer and more interesting. I actually did the computer panel thing in one map recently, using stock textures. I won't use that trick again, but will see what else is possible. Mix it up. Use familiar things in unfamiliar ways.

Why I love Vanilla projects is that the authors tend to surprise in new ways. It's often subtle, but even something created in tribute like D2TWiD can bring forth fresh experience that no thickness of sector soup nor any amount of custom textures can be a substitute for. Wordy here claims not to like the generic, but all I see is him clamouring desperately for it.

Old Post 06-19-13 20:44 #
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Capellan
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A good looking map is a good thing, but you can make good looking maps with stock textures.

As for custom textures, they are great and all, but they're definitely no guarantee of quality maps.

I also think that many texture packs tend to become so large and diverse that they make mapping more time consuming. CC4-tex boosts the texture count to something like 1600, which is rather unwieldy.

But fundamentally, I think it comes down to "make the maps you like". A lot of people like stock texture maps. I'm one of them. A lot of people like maps with custom textures. I'm one of them, too :)

Old Post 06-19-13 20:53 #
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Phml
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Edit: nvm.

Old Post 06-19-13 20:53 #
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Wordy
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I enjoyed reading your post Jayextee, and this type of discussion on what constitutes well-done detailing and so on is exactly what I wanted to see.

It's a shame you chose to use derogatory language like 'clamouring desperately' which indicates a lack of respect which isn't too helpful in stimulating discussion or in shedding light on a subject which should simply bring out people's opinions on some fundamental aspects of design in Doom wads.

I don't consider vanilla textures generic, nor do I see them as this awful thing that needs to be destroyed in order for Doom to progress. It's about more than that. Obviously at its root this is about good design and quality of product more than anything else and I do hope this thread discusses these aspects of design more than if I'm arrogant or desperate or whichever tag people find it necessary to use in order to back up their point or lack of.

Old Post 06-19-13 20:56 #
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Jayextee
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So you were playing Devil's advocate? In which case I take it back. ;)

Old Post 06-19-13 20:58 #
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Antroid
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dobugabumaru said:
Blue is better, much more elegant and sublime. I think, however, we can agree any color beats brown.

You take that back, brown is the shit!


Also, I think a big part of why some people prefer vanilla wads and stock textures is the old idea that the more limitations an author had, the more impressive a creative work becomes. Like, if a mapper chooses to use scripting, or new textures, or whatever else, even just the lack of linedef/floor limits, it's much harder to impress me, because the potential with these abilities is so much higher and no map ever reaches it. With limits though, it becomes much more interesting and inspiring to see what people can squeeze out of them. So, subconsciously, if a good megawad is vanilla, I'm going to like it that much more than if it was zdoom-only or limit-removing, but was otherwise largely the same (with a couple of things to justify it's unvanilla-ness). Which is pretty bizarre honestly considering I'm playing it all in zdoom anyways, and my only big project is precisely like that: zdoom-only and it doesn't use scripting, the majority of textures are the stock ones and the level of detail and size of the levels are pretty vanilla-y for the most part. But to be fair that's all concerning some perfect spherical megawad in empty space or whatever, the enjoyment I get out of any one of them is not really very dependent on these factors.
I think I wrote this exact post before already :/

A small addition about levels of detail and such, honestly I think pretty much only the vanilla or just-about-vanilla visual busyness fits the engine and looks good in it. I genuinely never liked the visuals of any map that tried to busy up every flat surface.

Old Post 06-19-13 21:06 #
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Pure Hellspawn
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I see three solutions to this:

1: Take the vanilla megawads, open an editor and put the custom monsters in as you see fit. Don't distribute the map - it's NOT YOURS.

2: Make your own megawad with custom monsters/textures.

3: Enjoy the vanilla megawads that are there.

Old Post 06-19-13 21:10 #
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Not Jabba
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There's no mention of new monsters in the OP.

Anyway, I enjoy a megawad as long as it has *something* to set it apart. My favorite thing about playing Doom is the exploration, not the combat (though the reverse view is equally valid). If it doesn't have detail, I like it to have new textures. If it doesn't have new textures, I'd like it to have detail. If it has neither, it may still be able to do something unique, although I find it's unlikely to satisfy my personal tastes, and I like wads with both a unique visual theme and good detailing best of all.

Old Post 06-19-13 21:19 #
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Jayextee
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edit, never mind

Old Post 06-19-13 21:22 #
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Bucket
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This thread inspired me to delete the megawad I was working on. I will never do anything unless it hasn't been done before.

Old Post 06-19-13 21:28 #
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Jayextee
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This thread has inspired the name of my MAP08 -- in which I play around with the idea of platforming instead of the usual run 'n' gun stuff.

I've called it 'Processing'. :3

Old Post 06-19-13 21:41 #
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Antroid
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God damn it, map04 of my megawad is "Processing". >:0 Map02 is also "Maintenance".

Old Post 06-19-13 21:44 #
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Jayextee
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You wore the same dress as me to this party? You bitch!

*cough*

Given that I've such names as 'Inversion Duality', 'Jade Tumult' and 'Conquietus Explicitus', I think a non-pretentious title such as 'Processing' breaks the mould a bit. I didn't really have a name for it until this thread.

Call it a nod, a tribute or homage, whatever. Nobody will 'get' it except those who were HERE AND NOW. How cool and 'with it' will you feel, huh?

Old Post 06-19-13 21:51 #
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Wordy
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Try Computer Maintenance and Computer Processing respectively. Don't forget to add terminals!

This is the bleeding edge of community, and I'm ready for whatever comes

Old Post 06-19-13 21:52 #
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Antroid
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I have a ton of terminals, but I'm not changing my names ("Computer" variants completely don't fit also). The theme of my first episode is really dry and to-the-point map names: "Portal labs", "Maintenance", "Research compound", "Processing", "Mainframe". Later episodes get the slightly more pretentious and ambiguous names. It's the author's vision!

Old Post 06-19-13 22:02 #
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myk
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Wordy said:
You're misinterpreting left and right Myk, and taking a lot for granted too.
My interpretations about what you say aren't less legit than what you think of yourself.


You've so far given three posts to an attack-dog style attitude which indicates that I've caused you some form of distress, which was not my intention.
If you don't like me reading and interpreting intentions maybe you shouldn't do it yourself... unless perhaps I've caused some form of distress? Were I to feel distress perhaps I'd go around trying to tell people to make more vanilla WADs, insinuating they aren't doing so because they are sheeple, instead of encouraging they follow their tastes even if they differ from mine and feeling comfortable with the level of variety and the large amounts of decent or better WADs the community offers.

So much for expressing generic demands for quality in the community when that really comes gradually and out of enjoyment of a hobby or playing the game and not with something that sounds like the harangue at the development department in a commercial company that needs to meet customer and investor expectations.


While I agree with this to an extent (I really enjoyed Claustrophobia 1 and 2), this goes back to my initial point that I'd rather just see a new wad being made which doesn't choose to limit itself in these ways, and instead just being creative full stop,
These abstract concepts of "going free" entail limitations that are simply different than sticking deliberately to technical or design strictures. This sticking to strictures deliberately is something rather intrinsic in "creative" activity, as art mainly starts when tech gets old and familiar.

I've generally stuck to vanilla (and plain limit-raising) for this main reason: To avoid the limitation of not having a consistent and familiar technical gaming field, in the abstract sense (the specs) or not having historically playable game recordings. I also made a post recently pointing out how all the additions to Zandronum had become an impediment form me, making me download large useless files that added nothing to my enjoyment, and have said more than once how extra features and settings in engines can get in the way, cluttering menus or screwing up map mechanics or game physics. All because of that obsession people have with "freedom" which itself can be a prison, because freedom is about people choosing to do things and not about doing everything at once or doing more.

There is no such thing as "full stop creativeness" because you have to set out a design focus in any case. Creativeness doesn't get better because you have more "freedom and options", that's just a matter of taste, aims and design principles. Technical restrictions, design strictures and the choice of specs are tools that help shape the result, while the talent is in the designer against that.

As for the Claustrophobias, I think some maps were fun, but many WADs that just aim to be for vanilla are much more fun to play. They kind of show the flaws of novelty for novelty's sake.


in all the ways which enhance the experience of Doom as a whole while keeping the core gameplay intact.
What's so "core" about it, that you like it? Here's the importance of pointing out the sloppiness of using Boom WADs as an example of why vanilla editing is the problem or pretending that Boom WADs show "core gameplay" which is using tech that's different than the core game's, or that not using new textures isn't really going to be essential in delivering "game play".

Personally I think new textures tend to make WADs somewhat uglier unless a lot of work is done, because most don't fit in too well. AV, for instance, has sloppy resource additions. Some new packs are great (like Darkening II and Saturn X, but the list isn't that big) and some modifications fit in smoothly, but many WADs with new textures just look a bit worse. Same goes for new music. I'm not against it as it's up to the designers and part of their experimentation and creative fun, but it's an argument in favor of using stock textures regularly.


Not Jabba said:
Anyway, I enjoy a megawad as long as it has *something* to set it apart.
This type of stance makes me feel I "like DOOM more" or something. Generally, I can play many rather similar WADs, especially at least a very first time, as it's all about what's around the corner. If I didn't enjoy that routine monster hunting that much, perhaps I'd look for something else to satisfy me in levels. This doesn't stop me from preferring some levels and stopping to say "this is great" or "this is meh", but I tend to have fun in either case.

Old Post 06-19-13 22:16 #
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schwerpunk
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I wish I could pull off pretentious. Maybe I should dust off my Bible and have a look in there. The most interesting name I've come up is "The Dreaded Word" which I stole from the similarly named thread...


dobugabumaru said:
Blue is better, much more elegant and sublime. I think, however, we can agree any color beats brown.
I find colours in general overrated. :p

Anyway, I'm seeing a bit of misrepresentation of Wordy's sentiments, vague as they are, and I'm going to try and avoid doing the same. Not that I even agree with the sentiments - I love vanilla limits and stock textures, even if I can also appreciate ZDoom-y, Boom-y, or off-vanilla features. I disagree mainly with the idea that limits on creativity are a bad thing.

As Antroid said, you get a lot more subtly appreciable variation when you stick in a hard limit like natural vanilla. It's the same reason why oil painting isn't dead as an artform, even though we have much more capable tools available to us on these very computers.

Old Post 06-19-13 22:39 #
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BaronOfStuff
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schwerpunk said:
I wish I could pull off pretentious. Maybe I should dust off my Bible and have a look in there. The most interesting name I've come up is "The Dreaded Word" which I stole from the similarly named thread...



If it's pretentious you're after, then that thread was a fucking goldmine.

But back on topic... has OP tried Ultimate Simplicity?

Old Post 06-19-13 22:51 #
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Jayextee
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myk said:

I've generally stuck to vanilla for this main reason: To avoid the limitation of not having a consistent and familiar technical gaming field, in the abstract sense (the specs) or not having historically playable game recordings.



This is a very strong argument for being pro-Vanilla as far as I'm concerned. A shifting spec will in time deteriorate the crux of the experience. If I make a Vanilla WAD, it is as-is and is as intended; I can guarantee a certain level of gameplay, balance and aesthetics within the same Doom paramaters that all sourceports share (being as they are, all based from the same original code). If anyone brings an element that disrupts that balance (let's say for argument's sake, jumping) and the experience is 'fucked up', then that user is the one who fucked it up.

Old Post 06-19-13 23:00 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Jayextee said:
This is a very strong argument for being pro-Vanilla as far as I'm concerned. A shifting spec will in time deteriorate the crux of the experience. If I make a Vanilla WAD, it is as-is and is as intended.


Okay, except for any instances of that blockmap shit. Carmack fucked that one up. /pedantic

Old Post 06-19-13 23:04 #
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