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Jayextee
Darth Jrrr


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Yeah, there are considerations like that. Isn't there a workaround for the blockmap bug?

Old Post 06-19-13 23:06 #
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Wincarthym
Warming Up


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From what I read this guy is just tired of doom.

Why even play doom now if you don't want "the same old doom"? Why do you play Team Fortress 2? Or Call of Duty? Or even Doom 3? I mean, I've seen the generic toilet water that's been passing through the doom community. For some reason its all about making doom look like Quake <x> and achieving a high linedef count. I mean really? If you want to see "New and innovative", just stop playing Doom. I know that sounds stupid, but there's really only so far you can take Doom before it either doesn't play good or it starts to look ugly. I've seen shit that would actually look great in any other game.

My advice is that you either stop playing doom, or play Doom 64. Doom 64 is architecturally superior to every other doom.

Old Post 06-19-13 23:12 #
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Tarnsman
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you can still make some pretty big ass maps with vanilla's blockmap, I know, I've done it.

Old Post 06-19-13 23:18 #
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esselfortium
A Major Doomworld Concern


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Tarnsman said:
you can still make some pretty big ass maps with vanilla's blockmap, I know, I've done it.

This is true, though I think the blockmap issue being discussed was actually Doom's inability to properly handle hitscan attacks on the boundaries of blockmap blocks, which can in some cases make a vanilla map actually play very differently in modern ports that fix that bug.

Old Post 06-19-13 23:49 #
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BaronOfStuff
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esselfortium said:

This is true, though I think the blockmap issue being discussed was actually Doom's inability to properly handle hitscan attacks on the boundaries of blockmap blocks, which can in some cases make a vanilla map actually play very differently in modern ports that fix that bug.



Yeah, this is exactly what I meant. Personally, I don't go near Vanilla/Choco Doom outside of testing any map submissions for community projects for the purpose of compatibility, because I am sick to the fucking teeth of having my SSG blast pass through some fat Mancubastard and hit the wall behind when I'm just trying to have casual fun.

How the guys at id missed this through nearly three fucking years, I'll never know.

Old Post 06-20-13 00:23 #
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dew
experts


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Wordy said:
In a way this tries to address some concerns raised by other members of the community which listed Speed of Doom as the most recent proper quality megawad. While not disparaging the brilliant efforts of those who do choose to emulate vanilla constraints, textures or whichever limitation they choose, I and others would like to see efforts less on making maps with artificial limitations, and more on the next Scythe, Vanguard, or AV. Something which, rather than providing a novel distraction or nostalgic attraction, gives us the next creative and masterful megawad in Doom's long and illustrious history of wad making.

this doesn't even make sense. scythe is utterly simplistic and vanillish, only the last map VPOs like crazy. AV is a vanilla megawad with a fair share of limit breaks, so more like limit removing. vanguard is straight out boom, as is speed of doom. you're mixing apples and oranges even in your core arguments.

you also make vague reference to "and others" with no citations or links, so i say bullshit, you're just trying to sound more important as a voice of a group. no, it does not count if some other guy pops in and says "i also want more awesome megawads", because who wouldn't?

by the way, why do you keep ignoring PRCP and BtSX? they're both strict vanilla projects with the cream of the crop mappers, gameplay driven approach in the former case and AV-like "complete package" with a whole new set of textures in the latter. i see you jumping all over the place, cherry picking examples that are not even consistent with your arguments. that won't do, it invalidates whatever you're trying to say.

tl;dr you're wrong and your call to arms is hollow.

Old Post 06-20-13 01:34 #
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skillsaw
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Wordy,

I'm jumping in here pretty late so this may have all been said already. Please bear with me.

I'm very glad that you regard Scythe, AV, Speed of Doom, and Vanguard as highly as you do. The first three are easily among my favorites, and obviously I'm the one to blame for the existence of the last. I too would love to see more mapsets akin them that build upon their best aspects. That being said, every mapper has different preferences and they are unlikely to conform to yours or mine. People make what they like to play, not what you or I might want to.

You might want to keep an eye out for Unholy Realms and Revelations of Doom, as they look like the kind of maps you might be interested in. Back to Saturn X also meets your requirements (new textures, modern design, classic styled gameplay) and will have 70 or 80 or some obscene number of maps when finished, so those might be worth a look too.

Also, I just want to clarify that Vanguard is not tragically unfinished. It's SUPER FINISHED, despite being shorter than I wanted it to be.

Old Post 06-20-13 02:13 #
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40oz
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My attraction to "vanilla" (and i use that quoted term loosely) stems a lot from my attraction do Doom the Way Id Did, where it became apparent to me that very minimalist details can lend a lot to the imagination, and with a vivid imagination, a very plain area can tell an entire story. Sometimes an otherwise completely plain brick room with a single nukagefall texture in it can trigger a thought in the brain that this is "the nukage processing room," giving many individual areas in an entire map a strong sense of identity, where a highly detailed room with computer panels, exposed wiring, borders, supports, pipes, UAC signs and ceiling lights don't really offer any description towards what the level is at all other than being just a techbase.

This is what lends the most into why I tend to describe highly detailed wads like Back to Saturn X (I'm sorry to use this wad as my target but I can't think of any similar wads at the moment) to be too samey and lacking in character. Sure the styles of each individual author shines in their own maps, but for the player, there's no sense of adventure, or hints that you've gotten from point A to point B or to point C. It just feels like an extremely long point A.

Old Post 06-20-13 02:34 #
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Antroid
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You know what 40oz, I completely agree with pretty much every single word of your post. I also thought before of the "less detail shown -> more freedom for the imagination" thing with videogame graphics, and it's actually why I prefer old game engines to the modern ones. The imagination can create images that no game technology and artists will ever be able to, but their attempts at a complete picture rob me of any space to subconsciously imagine what the places I'm in are and look like. I always compared it to the difference between reading a book and watching a movie (I get leagues more immersed in books), only less pronounced, because that kind of thinking leads to text adventures and ascII graphics, which are a bit much for me.

And I fully agree with you about btsx, too.

Old Post 06-20-13 10:33 #
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TheCupboard
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Jinkies, I'm really going to detest the new arrivals due to Doom 4 hype aren't I.

Old Post 06-20-13 10:40 #
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Jayextee
Darth Jrrr


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Just wondering: what Vanilla-and-stock-texture projects are being worked on right now?

Off the top of my head (or rather, the first five pages of Wads & Mods) there's my own Nex Credo, collaborative projects Doom 2 in Name Only (although this barely counts because of custom textures in the secret level/s) and Doom 64 for Doom 2, Jimi's excellent-looking DooM 2 MooD, Katamori's Somewhere in Time (which I'm pretty hyped for).

I don't know, is ConC.E.R.Ned by Cannonball a stock-texture project?

These hardly outnumber the port-specific, gimmick or replacement (usually partial) projects, not by a long shot. I go back to my previous stance that; if you don't like these things, there are other things out there for you.

Old Post 06-20-13 13:23 #
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cannonball
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My wad does use the stock textures with a few doom 2 textures. Also there is a level called Administration so I've failed at life and the only option is to now shoot myself.

Old Post 06-20-13 13:40 #
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Jayextee
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That counts. You still mah bro. :)

Old Post 06-20-13 13:43 #
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cannonball
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Jayextee said:
That counts. You still mah bro. :)

Wordy left me lost for words (pardon the pun) so abstained from participating in this discussion :P

Old Post 06-20-13 13:47 #
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kmxexii
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I wanted to say something but I basically agree with Myk and he says it more eloquently.

Old Post 06-20-13 16:26 #
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Wordy
Green Marine


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A few guys here have understood my general meaning and I thank them for their participation, whether they have agreed (Skillsaw, NotJabba) or disagreed (Antroid in particular).

Some have chosen to take this thread the wrong way and either feel it necessary to interpret this as an attack on stock textures or mapping (it isn't) or feel it necessary to defend / declare their vanilla cred; or be like Dew and Myk and treat my OP as if its some academic argument that must be picked apart at an atomic level. It's not as serious as that, it's not a 'call to arms' and its nothing to get worked up over. I sought opinions and community discussion and happily I got that - to some extent. If you think that invalidates my argument or that i'm just plain 'wrong' well, good for you I guess - but its neither here nor there.

I'm happy to have seen some of the opinions generated which was the overall point of the thread, I was interested in the communities response and views on the topic or else I'd have just mapped my own maps and not felt it necessary to share my personal view on the topic.

Feel free to continue making vanilla maps, call them administration, work within whatever creative limits make you feel good, it's your hobby! My own tastes aren't static and perhaps at some point I'll take a different position from the one given here. Any further discussion on the topic is welcome, though there's enough here for me to think on and move on from satisfied. Likewise if people want to spend time refuting an argument that doesn't exist or make puns out of my (brilliant) name knock yourselves out.

Old Post 06-20-13 17:08 #
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Jayextee
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Bit hard not to get defensive when your opening post is so negative.


Wordy said:

It drives me up the wall to see talented mappers invest their time into making maps with limited detail and the textures that, honestly, I'm sick and tired of seeing over and over again.




Wordy said:

If I see a level called 'Administration' 'Computer Complex' 'Nukage storage' or something else so mind-numbingly tedious that I've seen over and over again then I will simply skip the level.




Wordy said:

Limit shit like that to novelty wads, or at least lets ensure that, as a community, these releases are rare enough to appreciate and are not just a sign of lazy thinking and abandoning originality for nostalgia.



Three examples which just disparage what a fair few mappers here do. If you genuinely are 'sick and tired', and you genuinely skip levels because of the names, then these things are not for you.

For folk to put a lot of work into Vanilla maps (and it can be a lot of work, take a look at what we're up against) just to see you deride it as 'lazy thinking' like you do, there's no wonder some of the more passionate users have their defenses up. THAT WAS YOUR FAULT, WORDY.

Don't leap in with an inflammatory attack from the get-go and not expect such a reaction. Calling it 'discussion' either after the fact or as a bracketed afterthought in your topic title does not change the fact that you came in shouting.

The responses you've had have been rather civil, considering.

Last edited by Jayextee on 06-20-13 at 17:26

Old Post 06-20-13 17:16 #
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skillsaw
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Please don't ignore nuance of my opinion, Wordy - I only half agree with you in that I'd like to see more mapsets that have similarities to AV, Scythe 2, and SoD. I still feel that mappers should and will make whatever they like best or whatever they feel like making.

Old Post 06-20-13 17:21 #
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cannonball
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There is no right or wrong way to make doom maps, apart the obvious things. Also as you have also now said Wordy what you would like to play changes. Personally I enjoy both classic vanilla wads and more contemporary stuff like Vanguard.
As a mapper just chooses to make whatever the heck I want, as long as it's fun to play myself and works then that's all I'm worried about. Hey I've made maps for ultimate doom, stuff on a par with Doom 2 difficulty and also made a load of maps for Slaughterfest. I don't exactly have one area I stick too because I get bored of one style after playing wads and making maps in a certain way and need to change it up now and again.
Anyway hope cannonball's post hasn't destroyed this thread any more.
....I will leave now :P

Old Post 06-20-13 17:31 #
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hex11
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Antroid said:

The imagination can create images that no game technology and artists will ever be able to, but their attempts at a complete picture rob me of any space to subconsciously imagine what the places I'm in are and look like. I always compared it to the difference between reading a book and watching a movie (I get leagues more immersed in books), only less pronounced, because that kind of thinking leads to text adventures and ascII graphics, which are a bit much for me.



Try some of the text adventures that have very basic graphics. In particular, I'd recommend the Level 9 stuff, especially the Silicon Dreams trilogy. Just grab the ZX Spectrum roms and play them in an emulator, or via a modern interpreter like this one:
http://ccxvii.net/gargoyle/

Old Post 06-20-13 19:54 #
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Jayextee
Darth Jrrr


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In listing currently-developed Vanilla megaWADs, I totally forgot the awesomely-themed 100 Lines project. Like the old 10 sectors contest, it's this kind of thinking that really brings out an author's creativity -- to shine within seemingly-unreasonable limitations is to truly excel.

Maybe that's the artist in me speaking, of course. Some people think "why?" when it comes to people working with self-imposed limitations. And this is a legitimate objection, since we live in a world where an incredible amount of things are possible.

But the way I see it is, as a mapper of the 100 Lines project, it was like a game in itself; could I make a reasonable level in so few lines? I think I did. And of course, I will be eager to see the final megaWAD and see how the other players did (since I've not sampled any other entries, nor will I until the project is properly released).

When I think about it like this, there's actually more reasons to map for Vanilla/stock resources than not. You can either knock up some new textures to make your nuclear reactor in a level, or you can rise to the challenge of building it with the pieces already there. Are you up to it?

It's very meta of course, to see level-designing as a game in itself. And maybe pretentious, but I schooled in art and that kinda comes with the territory.

Old Post 06-20-13 20:45 #
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Capellan
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Note that 100 lines is Boom + stock textures, rather than pure 'vanilla'.

I made the choice not to use custom textures as an additional element of challenge; the more textures you have to work with, the easier it should be to be visually interesting. I didn't want to use that as a crutch against the linedef restriction.

Old Post 06-20-13 21:26 #
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Jayextee
Darth Jrrr


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Oh, it is? My bad. Made my map within the vanilla restrictions though, is that still cool?

Old Post 06-20-13 21:28 #
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Ribbiks
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no, you must have at least 3 boom effects or you receive a swift kick in the groin

Old Post 06-20-13 21:34 #
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Capellan
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And you have to pay for me to travel to your place to deliver said kicks.

Alternatively, it's fine to stick within vanilla limits. You just aren't forced to :)

Old Post 06-20-13 22:13 #
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valkiriforce
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Maybe I was going for the '94gasms of Reverie out of masochistic WAD searching through Maximum Doom or any other collective WADs from the 90's. It's what I do. But hey, everyone's entitled theirs.

Ribbiks said:
peace, love, and rainbows.
Custom title for sure.

Antroid said:
You take that back, brown is the shit!
You are correct, it is usually brown.

Jayextee said:
Just wondering: what Vanilla-and-stock-texture projects are being worked on right now?
I'm currently working on something I like to call Vispire; I have no idea was goin' on.

To this day I still think a secret level megawad would be awesome; because secret levels tend to have that strange creative nature behind them (Killer Colours, Prestidigitation, Doorway To Quake, etc.).

Old Post 06-21-13 20:37 #
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Antroid
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By the way, it has come to my attention (don't ask me how, I have eyes and ears everywhere, it actually gets quite awkward) that some people didn't understand what 40oz meant earlier by some maps being "A journey from point a to b to c" and some being "one big point A". I think I understood that sufficiently, so allow me to clarify, please - at least what I thought he meant when I was agreeing with him.

I think the second variant is the sort of totally interconnected maps that you constantly run through in all directions, slowly opening them up more and more and aquiring keys and such. In the end no matter how many "distinct setpieces" or "varying environment types" they have, they feel like this one big sandbox (not in the genre of maps sort of meaning), one big set which was crafted precisely for the player, one big place, call it like you want. Often they don't feel like there's anything beyond their boundaries in the game world. The "Journey" maps, as I understand, are such maps where the progression between the "points" is somewhat linear and you only make the "A->B" and "B->C" trek once, only in one direction, don't have a reason to return to the previous "points", and the places are far and distinct enough that they feel like separate areas between which you have to traverse. I guess if you get technical (or pedantic), the main distinction is the lack of the nigh absolute interconnectivity and desire to cramp the whole layout into some rectangular shape like the original maps were, and a bit of absolute linearity in the global progression. Because technically even about the most interconnected maps you can say that a lot of their areas you only go through once and in one direction... But I hope the point is more understandable now.

As an example, let's say we have a map about some techbase structure and surrounding caves and cliffs. The player runs around this area to and fro, but you would still think of the whole place as "that base". Maybe the exit door was locked but very close to the start, in which case even if you had to traverse the entire techbase for the key it still doesn't end up feeling like a journey, but rather like a continuous stumble in this random, completely outlandishly structured building (and surroundings). On the other hand, we might have a map that has two completely separate techbases, which are connected by, say, a long canyon, with caves, maybe some fields, a swamp, a wooded area, a river or whatnot. But this connection part is at least as long to complete as each of the bases, and obviously you can't see one of them from the other. The player can run around the first one for a bit, maybe to find a key which opens the exit from it, THEN get through the sufficiently long trek to the second base, and THEN either end the level before entering that one or maybe spend some time searching for a key to the entrance and then whatever objective he needed to complete in that second base.

I know that the "one big point A" maps were pretty much all the original Dooms had, but even in this case I think I much prefer the "journey" ones, or at least when there's a healthy dose of them in a set, like at least every third or second one. Funnily enough, MAP01 almost seems like a "journey" map, and MAP02 is quite clearly a "one big point" map. MAP29 also could be viewed as more of a "Journey" map.

Old Post 06-21-13 23:09 #
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