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Demon of the Well
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I guess that really does hinge a lot on whether or not the player finds the invulnerability sphere, and has the presence of mind to know how to open the passage back to elevator after it closes off. The secret itself is very easy and getting out of the arena is uncomplicated in interactivity terms, though, kind of like doing that is sort of the marquee strategy for the battle (although I'm sure it's both very possible and a lot tougher to do it without the artifact, especially outside of ports that don't allow for infinitely-tall things to be nixed).

Old Post 04-07-14 02:29 #
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Gez
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Roof Rage: the outside lift's switch (from MAP01) can be activated. It results in a HOM and general uselessness.

Old Post 04-07-14 12:34 #
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mouldy
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Demon of the Well said:
maps 12-32 commentary


hooray, cheers for the fdas and comments, very useful.

map 12 - its quite easy to inadvertently activate several traps at once when you start running around in there so well done surviving that! I originally was going to make the central floor damaging but I didn't want to restrict the player too much as it can get quite busy. The plasma rifle archviles teleporting could get quite nasty so I might keep them as they are for now as well, if it gets too harsh the reward might not make it worth the trouble maybe.

map 13 - that weird bug with the stuck demon seems to be something that happens randomly in prboom and I've not been able to figure out why since it doesn't happen every time. Might be to do with teleporting before the floor as stopped moving... The amount of moving floor stuff going on makes the textures hard to align properly, i'm normally quite a stickler for proper alignment so had to compromise a bit there in places.

map 14 - that key grab is annoying! I was sure i tested that in all source ports... The finale didn't quite work as intended with you as I didn't expect anyone to run back past the descending hellknights, the idea was for that battle to take place around the pillars with the teleporting minions providing complications. I might have to work on that.

map 15 - i did make this one a touch easier after dobu tested it, i think a lot of these maps could be harder to be honest but I wanted to try and keep it fun for less skilled players (like me!) so its a tricky balance to strike. My favourite tactic for this map is to pick up the invul sphere at the start and activate all switches at once, its quite a skirmish. I don't think that early switch pressing is a problem in this map, though i did notice in your demo the red key didn't descend on its platform - I don't know why, but it seems to be a random thing in prboom.

map 31 and 32 worked pretty much as intended, although I might sort out that building on map 32 where the cyber can't hit you.

Excellent bunch of demos, very entertaining cheers!


Gez said:
Roof Rage: the outside lift's switch (from MAP01) can be activated. It results in a HOM and general uselessness.


thanks, I think I fixed that in the latest version but I'll double check

Old Post 04-07-14 15:57 #
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Katamori
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I realised that the surrounded city looks actually damn awesome, and because of this, I will never get bored of watching it as an outside scenery.

You rock BTW.

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Old Post 04-08-14 01:12 #
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Magnusblitz
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I admit that I haven't had the patience to try and actually play through these maps yet, but I really do love seeing the theme of each map and the detail you put into them. And the secret level being staircases was pretty funny.

Old Post 04-08-14 01:47 #
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esselfortium
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Just finished a coop run through this. Awesome stuff! Really challenging and engaging maps, great design, and lots of cool ideas and humor. I hope you're planning on doing a third episode :)

Old Post 04-08-14 04:00 #
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mouldy
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esselfortium said:
Just finished a coop run through this. Awesome stuff! Really challenging and engaging maps, great design, and lots of cool ideas and humor. I hope you're planning on doing a third episode :)


Cheers! I still have to fix co-op and didn't even add multiplayer starts to episode 2 yet so I'm glad to hear it plays ok. I plan to sort that out once I finish episode 3. Which might take a few more months.. but will definitely happen.


Katamori said:
You rock BTW.


Well how can I argue with that :) Enjoying your playthroughs

Old Post 04-08-14 13:09 #
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esselfortium
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mouldy said:


Cheers! I still have to fix co-op and didn't even add multiplayer starts to episode 2 yet so I'm glad to hear it plays ok. I plan to sort that out once I finish episode 3. Which might take a few more months.. but will definitely happen.


Yeah, there were some coop issues -- in a lot of maps we would be locked inside the elevator when respawning, and would have to noclip out. There were some similar issues with blocking bars that were used elsewhere in the maps.

Old Post 04-08-14 13:30 #
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mouldy
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esselfortium said:

Yeah, there were some coop issues -- in a lot of maps we would be locked inside the elevator when respawning, and would have to noclip out. There were some similar issues with blocking bars that were used elsewhere in the maps.



Yeah i realised after making the first episode that the maps would take a bit of work to adapt for multiplayer without changing the single player game, so I figured I would concentrate on single player for now and fix multiplayer later on. Its definitely on the list of things to do though.

Old Post 04-08-14 14:10 #
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Tarnsman
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That's funny because I think this probably plays a lot better in coop than single player primarily due to the maps slowly becoming very homogenized in terms of gameplay (enter smallish map -> acquire something -> fight teleporting monsters -> rinse repeat till end of map -> start process again for next map) with of course some key exceptions. 7-11 were probably the biggest offenders of this if only because E2 manages to expand beyond the limits of the building's interior and the ability to diversify the scope of the layout helps reduce gameplay monotony despite still following the same (do X -> fight teleporting monsters -> do Y -> fight teleporting monsters) trope that exists from map 6ish onward.

Anyway I think this a really cool mapset and there are a lot of good ideas, particularly those that show off the correct way to do a small constricted layout with lots of view-able, inaccessible "scenery", while not having the gameplay feel overly stringy or cramped. Map 3 is probably the best example of "tight" done well I've seen in a long time. Also the general goofy almost Kama Sutra level "realism" really helps the mapset feel enjoyable to move around in and gives it that unique vibe.

However, I am really disappointed by the execution of the concept (especially the destruction of the elevator in map 20) and the fact that of course you go down into hell. I feel like the concept of the elevator could have been used for a far better thematic progression than manmade structure -> underground -> hell. Something like Map 1-6 - Building interiors, 7-11 sewers and building foundation shit, 12-20 underground ruins, alien shit, Earth's mantle, 21-30 the elevator literally becomes a Tardis and the theme becomes totally random. Floor G23? Atlantis? Fuck yeah. Floor G26? Kansas? Okay! Floor G29? Taco Bell? Now we're talking! (I did however love the "mouth" in map 20)

P.S. Dear Doom Community, It's 2014. STOP REMAKING DEAD SIMPLE! Or at the very least, use dehacked give mancubi and/or arachnotrons A_KEENDIE and use some boom conveyor trickery to put it on a map other than map 7.

Old Post 04-08-14 16:41 #
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mouldy
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Tarnsman said:
stuff


Cheers man, glad you liked it. Don't worry, map 20 won't be the last you see of the elevator, it will return like Gandalf after fighting the balrog

Old Post 04-08-14 19:43 #
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Gez
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I hope we'll get to see the epic battle of the elevator and the balrog sometime.

Also, I forgot, but I found a HOM in the ceiling on Secrets & Lies.
http://i.imgur.com/LxSELxxs.png http://i.imgur.com/Cmh84jRs.png

Old Post 04-08-14 21:46 #
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mouldy
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Gez said:

Also, I forgot, but I found a HOM in the ceiling on Secrets & Lies.



ha! i'm guessing thats where I forgot to remove the raise-ceiling action from the edge of the switch, so you can press it twice. Nice find, I'll definitely have to check all my switches for that now.

Old Post 04-08-14 22:28 #
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Melon
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This wad looks really interesting. You said you wanted to know about lower difficulties, I usually play on HNTR and still can't beat a lot of stuff on that difficulty so I thought I'd give this a go and see how it fared. Played the first 5 maps in PrBoom+ cl 9 as that's all I have time for right now. Used the April 6th version.

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/attachm...?postid=1256883

I'll try not too many comments, I'm sure the demos will speak for themselves about how badly I play and how I fare with the difficulty. Died a couple of times throughout, some deaths were pretty dumb, particularly dying to the same thing twice in a row on map 04. There seems to be a chaingunner and shotgunner stuck together on that map by the way.

MAP02 felt like the most difficult of what I played, but that's probably just me being bad with hitscanners and getting trapped the hell knight, in hindsight I don't think it was actually all that tough.

In MAP05 I thought the secret was easier to figure out than the main way to progress haha, although it made me feel pretty smart. Nice variety of themes so far.

EDIT: I decided to quickly watch my MAP02 demo and maybe it's not the toughest? When writing this post I was thinking back at the levels and remembered feeling under a lot of pressure in MAP02 but maybe that's due to getting heavily damaged by the hell knight? Or because the later maps had more powerful secrets? Interesting that I thought that way. Could be because I sent a fair chunk of time at low health. Stupid psychology.

Last edited by Melon on 04-08-14 at 23:17

Old Post 04-08-14 22:43 #
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Demon of the Well
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E2 FDAs #2, maps 16-20. Onwards!

Map 16 -- I remember this from the screenshots thread. Looks rad, although I think it'd probably be even better with some more pronounced lighting contrasts. Anyway, I wasn't playing so well this time around, and I die here once when my reflexes just seem to momentarily quit on me, but like map 15 before it I think this is one of the easier E2 maps (not that this is necessarily a criticism, mind, I don't feel that each map needs to be incrementally more difficult than the one before it). The reason for this is that the player has a lot more control over the rate at which the various monsters are released, so things are less likely to snowball out of control, and a methodical/cautious player is able to handle the battle in stages and collect his/her wits and comfortably stock up between combats. I technically find both secrets but don't make very good use of either of them; if I had timed the use of the V-sphere more wisely on the exit run the whole thing would've been a snap.

Map 17 -- For the record, this is my favorite from this new batch of levels, not unlike the library from E1 in tone and style. It really had me on the ropes, too...I die twice here, and am hanging on by a thread at one point during the third attempt, as well. This is the polar opposite of the steady pace of map 16; seemed like the early waves can be triggered/managed at the player's discretion, but at about the halfway point mechanisms behind the scenes just start releasing wave after wave of monsters into all of the different points of the layout, and at this point it's not a question of trying to keep control over the situation--you just can't, full stop--but in just scrambling nonstop to survive, fighting for every second of safety until you finally start to turn the tide again. The unorthodox rockets-first weapon progression (not that said progression is terribly pronounced given the size of the map) and the nonlinear/unfolding layout make this very replayable as well. This is brilliant stuff, probably the most fun map in a set full of them. Shit, I even love the setting. I'm all about crypts and tombs and whatnot.

An end to the gushing, though. There is one thing I noticed that may be an issue; by the time I finally won and was ready to leave, I could hear a cyberdemon and some other monsters stomping around in a closet somewhere, but they never arrived to the party. Now, I didn't get 100% secrets, so I know it may just be that their appearance is tied to one, but I thought I'd mention it anyway, since it occurred to me that the monster teleportation space in this one gets pretty congested pretty quickly, and maybe they just missed the bus somehow.

Map 18 -- Man, aliens sure are shitty pilots, aren't they? Apart from the UFO this is naturally less visually interesting than many of the other maps (and I'm going to make usual broken record suggestion that it might look a bit sharper if it were slightly darker), but effective enough on a thematic level. I appreciate what it does with the gameplay, though--this is sort of a 'defend the stronghold' map of sorts, which makes a nice change from the corner-to-corner scrambling of the previous few maps. Avoids being too one-note by gradually cutting down on the number of safe spots the player has over time; very classy. The cyberdemons that appear at one point will unfortunately be pretty easy to cheese for players that want to do that, but I think trying to preclude this to a really pronounced degree would require you to make layout changes that would hamper other aspects of play, so it's probably not something to worry about. Maybe for UV skill at least you could have an additional wave of arch-viles or the like that teleport in at some point near the end in an attempt to flush the player away from the safety of the area around the elevator, dunno....I still wasn't playing very well but I make it through this one on the first shot, largely because I was able to control when/how I made certain moves almost entirely. Still fun, regardless.

Map 19 -- Heh.

Map 20 -- Not a lot to say about this one, it's thematically very cool (although not unprecedented), and I can't help but like the endless torrent of imps and pinkies (thankfully they weren't nobles, that would've taken a while). The sloppy play continues, but again I make it out on the first go, just because the sheer amount of running room finally expands somewhat, although it's still informally restricted by all of the molten lava (which is fine). Revenants and arch-viles are conspicuous in their absence here, but I don't think most players will miss them, as the nature of their attacks would tend to make the situation exponentially more stressful than it currently is. Maybe there's a little too much health on the central rock formation, I feel like I got away with very poor play (even by the day's generally low standards) in this one. Still enjoyable anyway, again.


This WAD's something special, man, and I mean that. Very much looking forward to the finale.

Old Post 04-08-14 23:25 #
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mouldy
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Melon said:
This wad looks really interesting. You said you wanted to know about lower difficulties, I usually play on HNTR and still can't beat a lot of stuff on that difficulty so I thought I'd give this a go and see how it fared. Played the first 5 maps in PrBoom+ cl 9 as that's all I have time for right now. Used the April 6th version.



Excellent, cheers for the demos. Map 2 was a nail-biter at one point. It looks like I pitched that difficulty just about right for you so far, although i have a feeling you might have trouble with some of the later maps where I might not have spent as much time implementing HNTR.

Nice find with the stuck chaingunner on map 4, looks like he is gatecrashing from a higher difficulty.

Old Post 04-09-14 00:05 #
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mouldy
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Demon of the Well said:
E2 FDAs #2, maps 16-20. Onwards!




haha fantastic set of demos, thanks. You really make such short work of some of these maps I feel a sense of accomplishment when I manage to kill you on one. I'll admit a lot of them ended up easier than they have any right to be with the amount of shit flying around, though its more about having fun with the senseless killing in the end so I can live with that (and i have 10 more maps to be a bastard). I might take your advice and dock a few medkits on map 20 though.

Glad you enjoyed these ones, I didn't notice any problems other than one bit of startan i missed. There are indeed a few more enemies on map 17 tied to a secret. Interesting you suggested reducing the lighting on a couple of maps, I do try lower lighting but usually end up having to knock it up again so i can see all my lovely work in software mode.

good stuff

Old Post 04-09-14 01:56 #
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scifista42
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So I've completed E2 on HMP, with an older version. Bugs I've encountered were a missing keycard on MAP32 (I know it's already fixed) and the end of MAP18 sometimes refusing to exit the map.

I really dig the compact map design, highly-developed detailing and the plenty of ideas you've implemented. With gameplay, it's not that kind of stuff I'd play every day, but I liked how it seemed to be skillfully crafted out in regards to challenging and entertaining combat. Taking down large hordes wasn't enjoyable for me all the time, but I could stand that (with my patience). I've been dying A LOT, mind you. MAP32 chaingunning down zombies and imps was one of the worse fights, as the optimal strategy appeared to be sitting in a corner and waiting for them to come. MAP14 was frustrating at times due to hard-to-notice "mandatory secrets", but managable. In maps 19 and 20, I didn't bother with attempting to kill all the monsters.

I liked the episode, although less than E1, because the short and sweet simple concepts like "Time Warp" win it for me. I'm already curious what the final episode will be like. You're doing a great job.

Old Post 04-10-14 21:20 #
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mouldy
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scifista42 said:
So I've completed E2 on HMP, with an older version. Bugs I've encountered were a missing keycard on MAP32 (I know it's already fixed) and the end of MAP18 sometimes refusing to exit the map.




Cheers man, i will look into that map 18 exit - which source port were you using?

Its certainly not going to be everyone's cup of tea but thanks for soldiering through. I've died many a death myself on some of your maps, so i guess that makes us even ;)

The best strategy I found for map 32 is to grab the bfg without firing a shot, nuke the mastermind and the distant cyberdemon and escape to the outer rooftops asap.

Old Post 04-10-14 22:27 #
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scifista42
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mouldy said:
which source port were you using?
Zandronum.

On the note of strategy, I tend to be careful on maps when I don't have foreknowledge. Whether a map pleases this playing strategy or not is an important criterion for me to rate the map. Maps that let me quickly blast through after a little trial and error and without killing all monsters (like your MAP20) can be okay with me too, but then I don't wanna see the map ever more. ;)

EDIT: What actually happened to me on MAP18 was that the final floor lowered but the map didn't end.

Last edited by scifista42 on 04-10-14 at 22:41

Old Post 04-10-14 22:34 #
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mouldy
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scifista42 said:
Zandronum.

What actually happened to me on MAP18 was that the final floor lowered but the map didn't end.



That is very strange... if that floor lowers then a voodoo doll is already heading towards the same exit trigger that all the other maps use. I don't see how that could possibly fail...

Old Post 04-10-14 23:10 #
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In fact - a two or three times, really rarely, I've been a witness of Zandronum failing to perform a walkover line action of map exit. It was simply skipped, like in the infamous vanilla bug. And since these actions are W1, it was impossible to activate it again - unless you loaded a previous save. So it's probably not a thing you can do anything with.

Old Post 04-10-14 23:23 #
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Melon
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HNTR FDAs, maps 6-10

I must say, I'm really enjoying this so far. Bad news though, map09 broke for some reason, as you'll see in the demo. Don't really know why.

See if you can spot the moment in MAP10 when I put my head in my hand and realise that I'm really bad at Doom.

Haven't spoke about the music yet. It's really weird, but I found myself humming one of the tunes later on. Well... trying to. It's not really hummable music. I like it, although I thought MAP10's music was pretty bad though sorry.

Old Post 04-10-14 23:38 #
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Ah, I forgot mentioning the music when I had commented. MAP04/MAP15 melody is the best and catchy one for me, and MAP08/MAP14 track is specially great in its own way too. ;) All the music is good.

Old Post 04-10-14 23:51 #
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mouldy
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Melon said:
HNTR FDAs, maps 6-10

I must say, I'm really enjoying this so far. Bad news though, map09 broke for some reason, as you'll see in the demo. Don't really know why.




Cheers! Very interesting watching low difficulty demos, you certainly gave yourself an extra challenge on map 10 with that rocket launcher :)

I believe map09 broke because of the weird way I set it up, if you run too quickly from the starting room then the imp who is meant to see you through the wall doesn't see you and then teleport somewhere else to activate a door opening... its a bit needlessly complicated and can be fixed very easily so I'm glad you managed to break that. There are some other broken things in that map as well.

Nice to hear some good comments about the music, its a bit unconventional here and there I'll admit


scifista42 said:
In fact - a two or three times, really rarely, I've been a witness of Zandronum failing to perform a walkover line action of map exit. It was simply skipped, like in the infamous vanilla bug. And since these actions are W1, it was impossible to activate it again - unless you loaded a previous save. So it's probably not a thing you can do anything with.



If it is a rare linedef skip then I can maybe make it even rarer by adding another one straight after it on all the maps

Old Post 04-11-14 01:09 #
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scifista42 said:
In fact - a two or three times, really rarely, I've been a witness of Zandronum failing to perform a walkover line action of map exit. It was simply skipped, like in the infamous vanilla bug. And since these actions are W1, it was impossible to activate it again - unless you loaded a previous save. So it's probably not a thing you can do anything with.


If it's a linedef skip, then the linedef shouldn't be activated though, and could still be triggered even if it's one-use-only. It might be that the sector is busy doing something else when you cross the linedef, which is a different case.

Old Post 04-11-14 01:33 #
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plums said:
If it's a linedef skip, then the linedef shouldn't be activated though, and could still be triggered even if it's one-use-only. It might be that the sector is busy doing something else when you cross the linedef, which is a different case.
Hardly. I'm talking about a MAP EXIT linedef special!

Also the vanilla bug (referred to as a Noclip bug) works that way that a skipped W1 linedef will never be activated again.

Old Post 04-11-14 13:02 #
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mouldy
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scifista42 said:
Hardly. I'm talking about a MAP EXIT linedef special!

Also the vanilla bug (referred to as a Noclip bug) works that way that a skipped W1 linedef will never be activated again.



If that bug is caused by fast movement, could it be that the scrolling floor moving the voodoo doll is going too fast?

Old Post 04-11-14 13:15 #
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scifista42 said:
Also the vanilla bug (referred to as a Noclip bug) works that way that a skipped W1 linedef will never be activated again.


I'm reasonably certain that if you skip a linedef this way and it doesn't get triggered at all, it also doesn't use up the linedef. The same code that checks for crossing the linedef applies to both cases. I can try to make a proof-of-concept demo tomorrow if you want...

Old Post 04-11-14 13:15 #
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I don't know if it's actually anything like this bug. I'm just saying that on a couple maps, I've been unable to ever exit because of failed walkover exit action, until I've tried again after loading the game to a moment before I've first tried to cross the exit line.

Old Post 04-11-14 13:39 #
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