Let's talk ZDoom wads from 1998-2001

This was the golden age of ZDoom, with classics like Tei Tenga, KZDoom1, ZanZan, Trust and stuff like that.

Before all the slopes and decorate weapons and monsters and extreme levels of detail and 3d floors all that dumb shit instead we had unskippable cutscenes, ACS text everywhere, ambient sounds, particle effects and coloured sectors and THAT WAS IT (probably).

So what are your favourite oldschool ZDoom wads? What are some underrated classics you think slipped underneath the radar? Anyone remember CSDoom? etc.

I can mention a couple of them:

Runaway Train - Timed level, not very difficult but fun. By Enjay.
Temple of the Ancients - By ReX, 5-level hub. Very good, can't wait for the sequel.
The Zort Series - by Cyb (a couple of them were released after 2001), I was pleasantly surprised when they came out a long time ago, and I still find myself having fun with them.
Flames of Revenge - by Berserker79, this is what Hunted should have been.

There are a couple more I haven't been able to finish (one day...):

Trust
Assault on Tei Tenga
The Lost Seraphim
The Hell Factory

All of them run great with ZDoom 1.22.

Just remembered these two.

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?file=levels/doom2/Ports/s-u/secur.zip
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?file=levels/doom2/Ports/s-u/secur2.zip

Securitron!!

PstLevM by PichuSofT 99.

This level is probably one of the biggest reasons why I design my levels' layout the way I do! I remember being blown away over the 3d feel and connectivity of it when I first played this level back in 1999 or 2000. Even all these years, there are still ideas from this level lingering in the back of my head when I design a level.

Despite a few odd things or minor mistakes, I still think it holds up well against time and it is still well worth playing through. It is after all almost 15 years old!

Zed said:

Trust

Yep, highly recommended, not sure why you didn't mention the equally impressive Doom: Resurrection (another PWAD by Fatal) which might I add was released in 2001. I am still waiting for episode 2, I can't remember if Fatal said he abandoned it or not I'll have to check the message again.

Mmmhh, I don't know how I could forget that one.

By the way, one thing that bugs me a little is that, in some cases, it's not clear if jumping/freelook is allowed. Is there a way to know in case the author forgot to mention it?

EDIT: @Chris Hansen: I just took a quick glance at that level and it looks great.

Zed said:

Mmmhh, I don't know how I could forget that one.

By the way, one thing that bugs me a little is that, in some cases, it's not clear if jumping/freelook is allowed. Is there a way to know in case the author forgot to mention it?

Could always ask him, he goes on twitter every now and then but yes I agree with that, I often assume not if they don't mention it but in some cases for example: Trust, you do need it after the train and it becomes apparent that the author wants you to jump.

Maybe I'm just drunk, but man everything back in the 1998-2001(-2003) era or whatever seemed so much more magical than anything today. Can't quite put my finger on why that is but I guess it's just biased nostalgia more than anything I suppose. For example Massmouth 2 seemed like the pinnacle of Doom development back in the day. It seems somewhat dated now but back then it was just like.... wow... (.wad)

Chris Hansen said:

PstLevM by PichuSofT 99.

This level is probably one of the biggest reasons why I design my levels' layout the way I do! I remember being blown away over the 3d feel and connectivity of it when I first played this level back in 1999 or 2000. Even all these years, there are still ideas from this level lingering in the back of my head when I design a level.

Thanks for the tip, Chris. You're right, this map is outstanding. Oddly, the exit didn't work when I played this on GZDoom. I was there, I had killed everything, and I faced a blank wall and could not proceed. Oh, well! Aside from the surprise DNF, I see what you mean about this map. I love the detail level, too. Just enough and not too much.

Heh, it's slightly-post-2001 but Massmouth 2 was the shiz when I first showed up on the doom scene. I ought to play/stream it sometime soon to see how it's aged... though I'm somewhat fearful of the prospect. :P

SteveD said:

Thanks for the tip, Chris. You're right, this map is outstanding. Oddly, the exit didn't work when I played this on GZDoom. I was there, I had killed everything, and I faced a blank wall and could not proceed. Oh, well! Aside from the surprise DNF, I see what you mean about this map. I love the detail level, too. Just enough and not too much.

Glad you liked it! It deserves some attention. I'm pretty sure it didn't get much of it 15 years ago, as far as I remember.

I played it GzDoom too yesterday and I could use the exit.... weird. It's a slimewall inside a small cave. You just have to walk into it. Weird that yours is bugged. But perhaps versions of zDoom back then was very different from now and the level isn't compatible with the new versions.

Hmm, well, I'm pushing the envelope as far as literally adhering to the date range given in the OP goes, but one of my favorite old ZDooM WADs that comes to mind is Claustrophobia: The Walls Close In, by Virgil the DooM Poet (same guy who authored 'The Lost Seraphim' from Zed's post above, incidentally).

Though it came out very early in 2004 (presumably in development for a fair bit of time before that), I think it fits the broadly defined model of oldschool ZDooMiness pretty well--it has the text-based cutscenes used to tell some semblance of a story, some particle effects, skybox tricks, a stilted mix of abstract and representationalist architecture (e.g. office furniture), ripped music, stuff that like that. At the time of its release it was a pretty unique WAD--fairly challenging by the general standard of the time, and Virgil took the 'little room to move' concept pretty seriously, as space restriction is used in a number of different ways to make the fights pressing.....I guess you could also say it was very 'choreographed' in terms of encounters, as well. Of course, the WAD's real claim to fame is its boss fights; most of the game uses the default arsenal and the regular DooM II monsters, but there's a number of crazy-ass bullet-hell style boss fights against new foes (mostly tweaked cybs/spiders, spritewise, with a surprise at the end) with some novel scripting, e.g. some of the bosses' attacks display their names on screen as they begin, JRPG-style.

As you can probably tell from the idgames comments if nothing else, it tends to be a love it/hate it WAD, which is quite understandable. I think it's great fun, myself, as I love the boss fights (in fact, this was one of the things I liked about the recent Winter's Fury, a new-wave ZDooM mapset if ever there was one).....the capability to do these wacky multi-stage boss fights is one of ZDooM's best features, I think, and this WAD's a great proof-of-concept in that regard. Definitely worth a look if you've never seen it before, even if you end up despising the gameplay.

I would want to say Void but since it is a 2003 wad it doesn't count.

Edit: Only now I decided to check the replies only to see Void was already mentioned lol. :P

I remember liking the first episode of Doom Resurrection a lot. Looking back on it I'm not sure I'd ever replay it, but yeah 1998-2001 zdoom wads looked like Doom's future to me. ACS scripts, timed events, onscreen messages, dialogue, particle effects, slopes, colored lighting, and quake textures really looked like enhancements for Doom. Anything ZDoom today just has to be an over-achieving TC that ends up way to far back in development hell, abandoned, or being half-assed all the way through.

There is some pretty good looking stuff but TC's don't really appeal to me, and the interest in simply making Doom a better game has pretty much vanished completely in favor of making total overhauls to it's gameplay and structure.

Well put, 40oz! I for one completely agree and I think you pretty much nailed it. It's hard not to get lost in all the possibilities. You still have to manage to stay true to the core of the game(play) and the essence of the game.

I will second that emotion. I'm pretty much relentlessly oldschool when it comes to Doom. My favorite TC, Osiris, dates all the way back to '95. This probably says more about me than it does about any individual TC, and what it says is that I'm basically a bit hostile to new monsters and wildass crazy features. Yet paradoxically, I do look forward to Jayextee's Slave game, so it's not as if I'm entirely consistent. ;D Still, one reason I like working so much in Ultimate Doom is the purity of the original monster set and the challenge of making fun, reasonably difficult maps with those monsters. It's not very hard, really, unless you try to make an E1M8 slaughtermap like I did. Damn, that was pure shit. ;D Doesn't mean it's impossible, though . . .

SteveD said:

I will second that emotion. I'm pretty much relentlessly oldschool when it comes to Doom. My favorite TC, Osiris, dates all the way back to '95. This probably says more about me than it does about any individual TC, and what it says is that I'm basically a bit hostile to new monsters and wildass crazy features. Yet paradoxically, I do look forward to Jayextee's Slave game, so it's not as if I'm entirely consistent. ;D Still, one reason I like working so much in Ultimate Doom is the purity of the original monster set and the challenge of making fun, reasonably difficult maps with those monsters. It's not very hard, really, unless you try to make an E1M8 slaughtermap like I did. Damn, that was pure shit. ;D Doesn't mean it's impossible, though . . .

Yeah, uh, Osiris is great and all, sure, but did you actually read any of the thread?

Oh and I'm going to post the later revision of The Hell Factory for the sake of it

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?file=levels/doom2/Ports/g-i/hellfact.zip

doctorno said:

Yeah, uh, Osiris is great and all, sure, but did you actually read any of the thread?

Absolutely not! I never pay any attention to any thread I participate in, preferring to spout extemporaneous nonsense apropos of nothing. For example, I completely missed this;

40oz said:

Anything ZDoom today just has to be an over-achieving TC

And this one snuck right past me;

40oz said:

There is some pretty good looking stuff but TC's don't really appeal to me

Now I know what yer gonna say . . . these comments are about ZDoom TCs, not TCs in general. Maybe so, maybe not. Perhaps I arrogated to myself the right to make a general comment of agreement about TCs, noting that Osiris -- not a ZDoom TC -- is the only one that really sends me. At least so far. ;)

If we can push up to 2002, I'd like to mention Dark7.

40oz said:

Anything ZDoom today just has to be an over-achieving TC that ends up way to far back in development hell, abandoned, or being half-assed all the way through.

Let's see...
ZDCMP2: overachieving and development hell, I can see that, but it's not a TC. It's also not abandoned. (Not commenting on the half-assed thing since I did work on it so I'm biased.)
Pirate Doom!: TC (or rather, PC) but I don't see how it's overachieving, development helled, or half-assed.

Those were the two Cacowards for ZDoom of 2013 (not counting runners-up and misc categories). From 2012, we've got Absolute Order, Putrefier, Reelism, and Winter's Fury. 2011 had Mandrill Ass Project.

Gez said:

Pirate Doom!: TC (or rather, PC) but I don't see how it's overachieving, development helled, or half-assed.

Now that you mention it, this is one TC I'm very eager to make time for, as it looks utterly awesome.

See, if a wad melded the new (without overdoing it) and the old, you could probably have a pretty good product. Been a good long while though since I've seen any ambient sound, colored sectors, or hell, any decent (z)doom tc's in a while. The only one I've seen lately is the Adventures of Square, and that's the only one I can think of.
I WANT MY URBAN BRAWL BACK.
Edit: Forgot Pirate Doom lol

Yeah, The Adventures Of Square and Pirate Doom do have that oldschool sensibility which I can get behind. Another one I'd add to that list is Temple Of The Lizardmen 1-3 which whilst not perfect still have a nice charm in terms of inventiveness.

Enjay ZDoom. That was a good megawad. I remember being all "omg wow" at the Quake E1M1 conversion. There weren't many full ZDoom megawads were there? Oh right, yeah, there was Super Sonic Doom. (And ZPack I guess...)

Oh yeah, Daedalus. I was hyped up for that when it came out. Never had the patience to complete it mind. Kinda underwhelming for me in the end.

I remember eagerly anticipating the release of FragFest Initialized. Rick 'Wildman' Clark, Kurt Kessler, and Cyb all being some sort of demi-gods figure in the zdoom editing scene. We had a lot of fun on Doomserv - There was so much influence from UT-99 in a lot of the zdoom maps from that time.

A sizable majority of the zdoom maps from that time feel even more antiquated than their vanilla/Boom predecessors due to the overuse of really cliched effects. The quality of projects have gone up in recent times, but around then, it felt like anything could happen with the Doom source.

40oz said:

There is some pretty good looking stuff but TC's don't really appeal to me, and the interest in simply making Doom a better game has pretty much vanished completely in favor of making total overhauls to it's gameplay and structure.

This, this, this. It really is terribly frustrating. Doom seems to be getting hijacked as being a jumping-off point for making completely new games, rather than using the enhanced tech to...well, enhance Doom.

Because of this, I tend to avoid a lot of ZDoom WADs, but Ultimate Simplicity seemed like a good way of using ZDoom features to make classic Doom gameplay better. The map design was still plagued by the overt symmetry and strict adherence to right angles seen in a lot of modern WADs, but you were clearly still playing Doom. That's too new to fit under this thread's classification, but some of the spirit is there.

Megamur said:

Doom seems to be getting hijacked as being a jumping-off point for making completely new games, rather than using the enhanced tech to...well, enhance Doom.

..Hijacked.

You can look in any direction in the Doom modding universe and find the tech used in current source ports being used to 'enhance Doom'. More violence, smooth animations, or more akin to the original DOS version. It's all out there, still happening.

And secondly, why is idtech1 being used to make basement games bad for Doom? Are they too subversive? Why does that make you so uncomfortable?

Ed said:

And secondly, why is idtech1 being used to make basement games bad for Doom? Are they too subversive? Why does that make you so uncomfortable?

Well, don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's bad for Doom. I'm just saying I'm not always a fan of it. I love Doom as Doom. You can change all the levels, add new textures or music, maybe even add some new monsters and weapons, but at the core, I still want to be playing Doom. I want to explore, hunt for supplies, maybe solve a few puzzles, shoot lots of things and try not to get eaten alive. Change around the formula or the theme too much and I start losing interest.

But that's just my personal take on the matter, and is not reflective of anyone else's feelings.

Barista? (It comes from the same year as Claustrophobia, so I guess it counts.) I liked it back when I played it for the first time, though ultimately it's a bit disappointing in its shortness and the ridiculous MS Paint monsters.

Okay, I thought the KZdoom series was around 2002, but they weren't (they were before), so I might as well add them to the list. Sorry if they've been mentioned but it has to be said that the series is a fine example of ZDoom editing.