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Sokoro
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I would like to try TNT map in my own '96 style.
Which textures should I use? TNT:Evilution iwad?
Or do you plan to make some custom textures for us?

Last edited by Sokoro on 02-20-14 at 09:22

Old Post 02-20-14 09:03 #
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Jimmy
doesn't rhyme with MIDI :(


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Doing my two TNT maps has been stupid fun. Here they are:

Hypocaust - André Arsenault style.
Hell Hath Fury - Jimmy Sieben style.

I'm definitely doing a map in the style of Whittaker because CIRCLES, and I'm definitely doing a 1996-era Jimmymap. I was four years old throughout most of '96 (birthday is at the end of November) so that particular venture should prove entertaining. :P

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Last edited by Jimmy on 02-20-14 at 09:17

Old Post 02-20-14 09:07 #
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Ragnor
I do see the humour in a mod sneakily changing my title


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Custom textures!? in a TWID project!??

Old Post 02-20-14 09:07 #
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Sokoro
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TNT: Evilution used some edited textures and even some new ones.
map31 has those egyptian textures, but since secret maps are not supposed to be clones of carribian and pharaoh, then we will need some new textures to fit with needs of whoever will be making map 31.

Old Post 02-20-14 09:20 #
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Ragnor
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It confuses me why egyptian levels are banned from both Devilution and TNTTWID, when every Plutonia levelset to date has had a Cyberden and Go 2 It styled map.

Old Post 02-20-14 09:34 #
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Phobus
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See, I remember mapping in the mid 90's and later with a mid 90's grade computer using DEU 2, so we'd be talking some incredibly restrictive limits if I were to partake in the TNT project. I think Scourge MAP13 was literally the most complex map I could make under those limits, as I kept bumping against my RAM limitation.

However, I have no interest in Evilution and I've had my crack at Plutonia before with PRCP, so I'll just leave the above musings as food for thought when you're trying to make '96 maps.

Old Post 02-20-14 09:43 #
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Avoozl
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I would like to see an Aztec/Mayan pyramid map in this instead of an Egyptian pyramid map for once. :P

Old Post 02-20-14 09:47 #
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Eris Falling
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Ragnor said:
Plutonia levelset to date has had a Cyberden and Go 2 It styled map.


And my favourite thing about this is...

Old Post 02-20-14 10:07 #
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Springy
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I'll have a crack at this I think. May I ask; does this mean that no Egyptian themed maps can be made?

Old Post 02-20-14 10:52 #
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ArmouredBlood
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First draft of a Plutonia map. Little bit of playtesting done, no 'vanilla' testing for render limits, but it shouldn't go over anything. It's lacking a bit of the Plutonia feel, but that's partially my mapping style and the fact I've only played Plutonia through 1.5 times. Difficulties implemented but not tested. I didn't see anything in the OP about midi selection so it's just Plutonia Map01's.

I'm most curious about the armor balance ... I'd remove the first green armor, but that's pretty much a death sentence in the first bit, but once you know what to do you can get to the stairs with full health and a bit of armor left. And then it's no challenge until the big room. It's not that long of an interval though. Probably is fine.

Aaaaaaaand there're a couple bits that look weird because of ceiling levels, I'll have to mess with them later.

Oh yeah, not sure what ep this would be in. Probably 2.

Old Post 02-20-14 11:28 #
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C30N9
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http://speedy.sh/PZxPv/FTWIDc30n9.wad

A couple of maps for Plutonia. It's about time to make a use of these.

Old Post 02-20-14 14:22 #
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Memfis
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Tarnsman said:
Well if it's not released then yeah you can submit them.

Ok, I'm submitting then, what do you think about them?

Old Post 02-20-14 14:24 #
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Sokoro
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Well, I am just going to start the map with tnt.wad as iwad.
Since I will try to keep visplanes under 80, it should be finished somewhere in the next century.

Old Post 02-20-14 15:22 #
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Tarnsman
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@Memfis: I haven't compiled my notes on Plutonia yet but most of Map 01 and all of Map 03 look definitely like with some love and tweaks they'd totally work. It's all about how much you'd be willing to mess with them in the 'TWID'ification process.

@Avoozl: It won't become slaughterish because pure slaughter maps won't be allowed.

@Secret Maps: The goal of the secret maps is to take the CONCEPT of the original secret map and do something new with it. The concept of the Evilution secret maps is explorey "location" based maps. So make that. Egypt and "The Caribbean" have been done a billion times before, come up with something new. Like Arabia or some shit. With Plutonia it's the same fashion. DO NOT remake Cyberden or Go 2 It. Take the "idea" and make a new map around that. Also for anyone thinking of submitting a Map 32 for Plutonia please look at just how few monsters Go 2 It actually has and more importantly how despite being the "first slaughter map" the monster density (excluding a few closets) is not that high and there is plenty of space between the monsters.

@Everyone. PLEASE when submitting maps do not submit them all as one lump, break them up and submit them as individual wads and tell me who each map is supposed to be in the style of. "Plutonia" is not a style. Pick Dario or Milo.

Last edited by Tarnsman on 02-20-14 at 15:34

Old Post 02-20-14 15:26 #
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Tarnsman
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Updated the OP to contain this little tidbit of information.

"Plutonia and TNT used increments of 10 for their sector heights and light levels, not the increments of 8 that us modern mappers are used to. Not every sector was some odd increments of 10 height and light level, they did clearly know things like doors were 128 high, but the majority of sectors and light levels in Plutonia and TNT (and really any project made in that era up to and including stuff as recent as Alien Vendetta) used increments of 10 for a lot of their stuff. So manually edit your sector heights and light levels to reflect this do not just use Doombuilder's base 8 for everything."

Well at least now I know why the Plutonia brick textures have such odd brick heights (like 20) instead of 16/32 like most other Doom brick textures.

Old Post 02-20-14 18:27 #
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Phobus
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I remember discovering those Plutonia start teleports were awkward heights compared to what we're used to in modern editors when working on PRCP... Now I know why!

Old Post 02-20-14 18:37 #
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Inkie
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Is it okay if a TNT map uses the special map07 tags? The original tnt didn't as far as I know, but Plutonia did.

Old Post 02-20-14 19:14 #
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Sokoro
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"Bullshit progression and stupid shit that gets the player lost.
Big empty as shit rooms, tiny cramped corridors all in the same map.
Totally pointless optional areas."

Sooo gooood. I am in love already.

What are TNT rules for blood, nukage, lava, slime1-4, slime 5-8 slime 9-12 flats? how should they damage?

Last edited by Sokoro on 02-20-14 at 20:48

Old Post 02-20-14 20:18 #
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purist
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My submission for Evilution:

Battery's Included - Chris Bourke (1996) style.

Started as an attempt on a Tom Mustaine imitation but too much of my own style crept in so I've taken the coward's way. Still requires some touch ups and some divisible by 10 sized sector heights and lighting levels, but is at a playable and ready for comments. I'm shooting for an early E1 slot for this.

I'm pleased that relevant developments, feedback and style guides are going to be posted here. If D2TWID had a failing it was that the DW thread and it's own forum were under utilised so if you were not #DOOMTWID IRC at the right time a lot of important dialogue could be missed. I'd still recommend anyone serious about contributing to this to join the IRC channel.

Old Post 02-20-14 20:53 #
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ArmouredBlood
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2 things.

1) I have no clue which Casali did which map in Plutonia, and 5 minutes of googling is not telling me. Where can I find this out?

2) Do we really have to do things in increments of 10? I understand the exit/entrance ports are built that way, and I did work with the brick textures, but it's going to be a pain in the ass to switch everything over. I'll keep this in mind if I do make another map for this ...

Old Post 02-20-14 21:31 #
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Marcaek
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Milo's maps

Dario's maps

Regarding IRC: It is a lot better for live, on-the-fly feedback and really speeds up the touchup process. Regardless this thread will see a lot more use than the D2WID thread did, so you won't be left out if you don't use irc(but you should, go use it).

Old Post 02-20-14 21:45 #
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TimeOfDeath
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Tarnsman said:
Also, again Evilution the Way TNT Did will be accepting maps that are not emulation but your own style as seen through the lens of 1996 if you'd like to give that a shot.

This sounds extremely awesome! If going that route, how much will the map be subjected to the 'TWID'ification process? Also, what about difficulty - can maps be hard? Or at least, can you make some optional areas in a map be hard/slaughtery? And two more questions that I guess are implied, but this is vanilla compat with tnt iwad?

Sadface about the lack of a deadline, though.

Old Post 02-20-14 21:50 #
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Tarnsman
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List of Authors for Plutonia and TNT:

TNT
    Map 01: Tom Mustaine
    Map 02: John Wakelin
    Map 03: Robin Patenall and John Minadeo
    Map 04: Ty Halderman
    Map 05: Jim Dethlefsen
    Map 06: Jimmy Sieben and Ty Halderman
    Map 07: Andrew Dowswell
    Map 08: John Minadeo
    Map 09: Jimmy Sieben and Ty Halderman
    Map 10: Tom Mustaine
    Map 11: Dean Johnson
    Map 12: Jim Lowell
    Map 13: Brian Kidby and Ty Halderman
    Map 14: Robin Patenall
    Map 15: William Whitaker
    Map 16: Andre Arsenault
    Map 17: Tom Mustaine
    Map 18: Dario Casali and Ty Halderman
    Map 19: Jimmy Sieben and Ty Halderman
    Map 20: Drake O'Brien
    Map 21: Drake O'Brien
    Map 22: Christopher Buteau
    Map 23: Paul Turnbull
    Map 24: Dean Johnson
    Map 25: David "Mentzer" Hill
    Map 26: Mark Snell and Jim Lowell
    Map 27: Drake O'Brien
    Map 28: Milo Casali
    Map 29: Jimmy Sieben
    Map 30: Jimmy Sieben
    Map 31: Dario Casali
    Map 32: Dario Casali


======================================================================
Plutonia

    Milo Casali: Maps - 01, 03, 05, 08, 09, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27 ,29, 30, 32

    Dario Casali Maps - 02, 04, 06, 07, 10, 11, 14, 17, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 31

Old Post 02-20-14 21:52 #
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Alfonzo
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Alfonzo's Writeups #1:
Things About Plutonia You Just Found Out: The Great Doom Robbery

When investigating the design of The Plutonia Experiment, there are some things you simply can't ignore. The Casali's decision to take inspiration (or outright transplant areas) from maps in Doom and Doom 2 is one of them. But how obvious is this fact for most of Plutonia? Until a couple of months ago, it seemed to me that there were only a handful of levels that could suggest it was a loosely jungle themed Doom 2, of sorts, and it wasn't until Tarnsman stepped in and started pointing out the similarities that the penny finally dropped: Roughly 90% of Plutonia's maps are built on stolen concepts. Orphans that wound up in handwoven baskets on the doorstep of House Casali, and who were lovingly raised into the maps we know and love (or loathe) today.

Of course, there are the obvious ones. In Map32: Go 2 It, there's no mystery to the total, unabashed transformation of Entryway. Map18: Neurosphere simply is The Inmost Dens. Map21: Slayer is Circle of Death. The central hubspoke arrangement in map04: Caged is hard to overlook as a rip-off of The Abandoned Mines, and the stone6 theme of map24: The Final Frontier and map27: Anti-Christ, combined with extreme verticality and the complete lack of sky, is also plainly inspired by the The Living End.

But there are more. And they are being discovered all the time. Here's a decisive list of each corresponding Doom map/area in Plutonia, as well as a list of instances in which the Casalis ripped themlseves off (ROS - Ripped Off Self). Please bear in mind that while your maps will mostly require theivery of some sort, it'll be concepts stolen from DTWiD and D2TWiD instead of the actual games. They don't even exist.

NOTE:8 maps per post! Check out the OP for the other parts once they've all been created.

MAP01: Congo
  • [E2M2] The entire south area with the revenant reveal and the medikit on a pillar is a carbon copy of the northeast "lower by shortest texture" tri-pillar area in Containment Area. The crate room in the nearby area is directly inspired, and crates appear nowhere else in Plutonia. What's more, the wooden beams that you pass through at the very start are the same as the metal variants that can be found in Containment Area.
  • [E4M8] The start room could be seen as the spiderdemon room from Unto The Cruel. You start on the very portal you jump into to exit the episode.

MAP02: Well of Souls
  • [ROS] This appears to be an original map, although Dario appears to have ripped off other parts of Plutonia. The lowering water is replayed in MAP08: Realm, and the YK bridge is similar to the ones found in MAP14: Genesis. Well played, Dario!

MAP03: Aztec
  • [ROS] Another seemingly original map, although there may be some similarities drawn with TNT. The pillar segments with the mancubus and revenants could be seen to draw inspiration from Steel Works, and the spindly hallways from Baron's Den. Long shot? You decide.

MAP04: Caged
  • [MAP26] So Abandoned Mines it hurts. The cage hubspoke is only the half of it. Outside of this shameless rip-off of an intersection we can see L shaped walkways that hug the perimeter and the northern room that is geometrically and conceptually similar to the RK pickup area. It isn't so much inspired as it is surgically removed and retextured.
  • [ROS] The switch featured across the gap in east area is repeated in MAP08: Realm

MAP05: Ghost Town
  • [E1M3/E1M6] The spiderdemon BK collection closet lights switch off when you pick up the key. The teckwall texturing combined with the monster reveal is also reminiscent of Central Processing's RK collection point.
  • [MAP28] The end of the map is similar to the end of The Spirit World in theme, texture selection and monster setup.

MAP06: Baron's Lair
  • [MASTER] What's this? A rip-off of a Master Level's map? The voodoo doll skull cube hovering in the central area is similarly constructed to the hovering switch in Subspace by Christen Klie. Later maps that also appear to borrow from the Master Levels support this idea, particlarly MAP10: Onslaught.
  • [ROS] The berserk fountain, combined with the gemometry of that area, is repeated at the end of MAP13: The Crypt.
  • [ROS]The barrel room concept is repeated in MAP14: Genesis.

MAP07: Caughtyard
  • [MAP07] Is Dead Simple. Simples.

MAP08: Realm
  • [E4M3] Similarities can be drawn around the center-west of the map, with the support3 textured stairs in combination with the triple lift and monotextured hallway.
  • [MAP11]The BK setup might correspond to the twin turrets at the end of Circle of Death.


More later! What fun!

Last edited by Alfonzo on 02-21-14 at 05:22

Old Post 02-21-14 04:19 #
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Marcaek
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I'm gonna do a Dean Johnson map I think.

Old Post 02-21-14 04:21 #
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crate
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I played Armored Blood's Blitz map, and it misses the mark in some very important gameplay ways. Instead of critiquing the map per se, I think a post explaining what I see as some of the key elements of Plutonia's gameplay might be more relevant and helpful. Not everything I say here will be relevant to this map, and some of it might even be wrong (let me know if that's the case!) but I'll provide examples as I go.

A first note is that Plutonia's maps often have quite low monster counts. 2/3 of the maps have under 100 monsters, and only map 32 goes over 200 (and even then just barely). On the whole the monster count is very similar to Doom 2. Plutonia's difficulty doesn't come from throwing more shit at you. Instead you get a lot of intelligently-placed monsters and layouts that force good decisions. Caged uses lots of open line-of-fire and a small number of free-roaming monsters (all Cacodemons) to force the player to find a safe spot quickly if he chooses to kill things. Anti-Christ is like Caged but mostly without the free-roaming monsters. Tombstone has lots of individually not-that-hard, almost-connected-but-not-actually fights but makes it difficult by having Revenants in all of them along with just-constrained-enough layouts, so if the player slips up in just one of the fights that could be death since everything in Doom hits so hard. There are a few giant-monster-teleport encounters like in Sewers and NME and Omen, but they are not the norm (and incidentally you can actually avoid triggering the monster teleports at the start of NME and the first one in Sewers entirely).

This should be obvious but Plutonia has a ton of chaingunners and revenants. In particular, most of the chaingunners are placed in locations that have some distance away from where the player will first discover said chaingunner. It does not have, relative to Doom 2, lots of the other low-tier monsters. It doesn't have many boss monsters (outside of Cyberdemons in the secret levels). In particular cyberdemons are used basically exclusively as snipers: there is only one cyberdemon outside of the secret maps that can even walk around in any meaningful way! A relevant note is that the text for entering Cyberden claims it is the second-hardest level in the WAD, despite it being rather pedestrian outside of simply having four Cyberdemons. I think Plutonia's Baron of Hell placement is also reasonably consistent (and good): most of them are placed to kind-of block the player, except they're put in places that are obviously large enough that the player could instead slip around the barons just fine. See Caged's rocket launcher room, Ghost Town's beginning, Realm's beginning, the baron on the bridge in Impossible Mission. They're almost universally easy to get around, but not something you can ignore completely. There are a few exceptions like the baron on the Final Frontier pathway, but, again, these are exceptions.

For the most part Plutonia's hallways are conspicuously empty. Good examples: Congo, Aztec, Caged, Sewers. Hallways that do contain enemies are often not terribly crowded: see Impossible Mission's chaingunner maze, you can squeeze past everything in the hallway in Realm leading to the switch in the east (though you might get blocked on the way back depending on how enemies move!), you can fit past everything in Genesis, etc. You generally do not have to kill enemies in Plutonia to get around them. So placing monster spawns so they block a hallway is not a very Plutonia-thing to do. Instead, if you want to make players kill things in your map, make it so it's necessary to do so to avoid dying.

This freedom of movement generally extends to the traps Plutonia uses also. Congo's red key room does not lock the player in. The chaingunners in Onslaught aren't even close to the triggers to open the doors. The Tombstone blue key room lets you get away if you back up right away. The chaingunner/archvile trap in the Crypt leaves plenty of space for the player to run between the enemies. Even the Impossible Mission teleport to the red key lets you slip outside of the baron ambush if you're quick. There are rare instances where the player gets blocked completely--Compound's two hell knights near the red key, for example--but these should be rare, not common.

Plutonia also has a crap ton of ammo, especially rockets. Plutonia has realistically about 2-3 times as many rocket boxes as Doom 2, twice as many shell boxes, at least as many cell packs, about as many bullet boxes (I'm trying to ignore the secret maps here; there are a ridiculous number of rockets in both of them as well). Obviously this is somewhat compensated for because there are fewer shotgunners and more enemy HP in general in Plutonia than in Doom 2, but you still have a ton of rockets to use and more ammo of all types. Going along with the rockets theme, the only maps without a rocket launcher are map 02, map 11 and map 18.

edit: Particular notes on Blitz: It has too many monsters especially for such a small map, the beginning room is obviously based on Onslaught but harder and with very limited ammo, the imps in the hallway after the beginning room are terribly un-Plutonia, I don't like the trap when you open the door to the large blue-key room (especially the spectre behind you), the red key trap also feels too limiting and difficult for Plutonia (compare to the teleport in NME that puts you in the Archvile + zombies room), the cyberdemon feels very wrong.

Last edited by crate on 02-21-14 at 07:01

Old Post 02-21-14 06:50 #
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ArmouredBlood
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Well I worked on it a bit, try this.

Old Post 02-21-14 07:54 #
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pcorf
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I might consider making a TNT level in my own style for this project. I will imagine I am back in 1995 as one of the designers for the project.

Old Post 02-21-14 12:16 #
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T-Rex
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Tarnsman said:
======================================================================
Plutonia

    Milo Casali: Maps - 01, 03, 05, 08, 09, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27 ,29, 30, 32

    Dario Casali Maps - 02, 04, 06, 07, 10, 11, 14, 17, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 31
[/B]


Sorry to nitpick, but I'd like to point out that even though that's what Dario Casali have concluded, I felt it was slightly inaccurate, maybe because he must have probably forgotten a bit on who did the levels between himself and Milo. Now don't me get wrong, I ain't doubting Dario cause he's one of the greatest mappers back in the day, but I've played through Plutonia plenty of times and couldn't help but realised who did the maps.

Milo - 01, 03, 05, 09, 12, 15, 16, 18, 19, 21, 23, 27, 28, 29, 30, 32

Dario - 02, 04, 06, 07, 08, 10, 11, 13, 14, 17, 20, 22, 24, 25, 26, 31

While it's practically the same as listed, I felt that was the actual credits, because first of, Dario confirmed when he was interviewed in the 5 years of Doom section of Doomworld that both he and Milo did 16 maps each for Plutonia. Secondly, the design styles. Maps 08, 13 and 25 look very much like any of Dario's maps. In fact, they, along with some of the other maps, seem to be inspiration for his Requiem Map 23. Map 28 seems more like a Milo map to me, cause like the rest of his levels, it had curved passages and even the large circular area in the centre.

Last edited by T-Rex on 02-21-14 at 15:51

Old Post 02-21-14 14:21 #
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obake
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I'm joining this. Expect a TNT style map soon!

Old Post 02-21-14 16:40 #
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