No Imps + No Keys Project - or better not

[40oz]

Captain Toenail said:

Maybe it's just time for a standard boom format community megawad with some cool new textures?

I can do that :)

Any themes in mind?

[Avoozl]

I should mention I do approve of no slaughter maps though. :)

[mouldy]

I'm wondering if the problem with eliminating keys is that mappers will just use alternatives - for example, pressing a switch that unlocks the doors that would previously have needed a key, this would mean the map would have no functional difference other than forcing the player to hunt around to see what the switch did (and if mappers use some kind of marker clue then this is basically the same as having a key). So its only really going to make a worthwhile difference to the gameplay if you have a more fundamental limitation, like "no locked doors".

[Doomkid]

durian said:

The 'locate key, unlock door' objective structure is, for me, somewhat tiresome, and I think it's a shame that it's so ingrained into the way we tend to approach mapping for DOOM.

Glad to hear someone say this, this idea could become something fun and unique. The entire concept of this wad has inspired me!

mouldy said:

So its only really going to make a worthwhile difference to the gameplay if you have a more fundamental limitation, like "no locked doors".

^This.

Maps that "may as well have had keys" is not what scifista is looking for :)

[scifista42]

^I'm actually looking for literally anything that matches the project rules and is fun to play on its own, and I hope for some creative outcomes. :)

[TimeOfDeath]

xnv said:

So basically "Place S1 Door Open Stay where you would normally put a key" project.

Replace a key with a different thing, attach a dummy sector to the locked door with the ceiling height 4 units higher than the floor, put walkover lines around the replacement key, when you pick up replacement key it raises the dummy ceiling, now locked door can be opened exactly as if you used keys.

[mouldy]

I guess if you are going to go to the trouble of recreating the key mechanic in a project that doesn't allow keys, then maybe the purpose of joining in is kind of redundant. A bit like bringing a camera to a painting class.

[joe-ilya]

Here's a demo level.

https://www.mediafire.com/?380u8ixxab2h6ae

And I'm aware of the bugs and the difficulty.

[General Rainbow Bacon]

If you're gonna do it, do it right. No replacing keys with anything. No keys means no keys as in:

no simulating keys.
no drawing keys with your mouse.
no pissing the word "key" on the floor.
no placing items in the shape of keys.
blah blah blah.

yeah you get the point now.

[40oz]

I for one am on board with the idea of making a megawad out of every insignificant little mapping gimmick possible leaving no innovation left for solo projects and killing the doom community once and for all.

A: I'm gonna make a map that uses crushers as the direct threat
B: Ughh, Crusher Community Project did that. It was boring as hell.
A: Well. What if I used Damaging floors instead?
B: Nukage Community Project did that too.
A: Umm well this map is going to have lots of catwalks and stuff--
B: Catwalks Community Project did it.
A: But then there will be Archviles--
B: Hunted Community Project did it.
A: But what if--
B: 6 rooms of Master Levels the way id did with 200 lines 2048 did it.

[General Rainbow Bacon]

What about an Unterryble community project? Where we take all the terrywads, rehash them and make a real megawad out of all of them.

[scifista42]

joe-ilya said:

Here's a demo level.

https://www.mediafire.com/?380u8ixxab2h6ae

And I'm aware of the bugs and the difficulty.

The start amused me, but feel free to keep it in. There are lots of jarring texturing, but well, it seems to be joe-ilya's style - still, if you could improve the aesthetics, I'd be very glad. BFG kind of breaks balance, even as an (unmarked) secret, otherwise the provided weapons are too weak to deal with AVs and mancubi. Lowering floor near the exit is incompatible with -complevel 2 because of monsters stuck inside the ceiling. Also, I don't see the point of getting trapped by bars right in front of the exit. That's it - quite an under-average map, with good and bad stuff in it. The ugliness and imperfect balance being the main problems. But with a little improvement, it would turn to be acceptable.

[Dragonsbrethren]

Captain Toenail said:

Maybe it's just time for a standard boom format community megawad with some cool new textures?

Sounds good to me.

[Reiken]

General Rainbow Bacon said:

If you're gonna do it, do it right. No replacing keys with anything. No keys means no keys as in:
...
no drawing keys with your mouse.
...

Next community project: all maps must be shaped like keys (doom keys, hexen/other game keys, car keys, fancy door keys, dvd/etc decryption keys...)

(Not knocking the project/discussion, just couldn't resist.)

[joe-ilya]

scifista42 said:

The start amused me, but feel free to keep it in. There are lots of jarring texturing, but well, it seems to be joe-ilya's style - still, if you could improve the aesthetics, I'd be very glad. BFG kind of breaks balance, even as an (unmarked) secret, otherwise the provided weapons are too weak to deal with AVs and mancubi. Lowering floor near the exit is incompatible with -complevel 2 because of monsters stuck inside the ceiling. Also, I don't see the point of getting trapped by bars right in front of the exit. That's it - quite an under-average map, with good and bad stuff in it. The ugliness and imperfect balance being the main problems. But with a little improvement, it would turn to be acceptable.

It's a demo, you know... unfinished and stuff.

[DeathevokatioN]

These limitation gimmick megawads are getting out of hand...

Captain Toenail said:

Maybe it's just time for a standard boom format community megawad with some cool new textures?

PLEASE

[scifista42]

DeathevokatioN said:

These limitation gimmick megawads are getting out of hand...

This is a different kind of gimmick than for example 1024 or 100lines or 5 rooms. In the past, there have been real good maps that happened to not have keys, and real good maps without featuring any imps, even if there was no artificial limit set to the mapper. Here, it's more like guidelines, setting a direction, while most of the freedom is left to the mapper.

[Reisal]

How about No Imps, No Arch-Viles instead?

[Breezeep]

What about only revenants, Mancubi, Arch Viles, Caingunners, Arachnotrons, Spider Masterminds and Cyberdemons?

[pcorf]

Pain Elementals and Shotgunners.

[Clonehunter]

No Keys doesn't so much make it linear as it does possible make things really confusing. Usually locked doors tell you where to go. If every door is unlocked, you might just run around in circles. I haven't mapped in ages. But if this takes off, I'll try something.

Breezeep said:

What about only revenants, Mancubi, Arch Viles, Caingunners, Arachnotrons, Spider Masterminds and Cyberdemons?

Heh, this too

[yakfak]

now starting a competing megawad project where you can't use SUPPORT3 or the skull on a pole

[40oz]

Now that's much more intuitive

[xnv]

yakfak said:

now starting a competing megawad project where you can't use SUPPORT3 or the skull on a pole

Literally Hitler.

[Pure Hellspawn]

40oz said:

I for one am on board with the idea of making a megawad out of every insignificant little mapping gimmick possible leaving no innovation left for solo projects and killing the doom community once and for all.

A: I'm gonna make a map that uses crushers as the direct threat
B: Ughh, Crusher Community Project did that. It was boring as hell.
A: Well. What if I used Damaging floors instead?
B: Nukage Community Project did that too.
A: Umm well this map is going to have lots of catwalks and stuff--
B: Catwalks Community Project did it.
A: But then there will be Archviles--
B: Hunted Community Project did it.
A: But what if--
B: 6 rooms of Master Levels the way id did with 200 lines 2048 did it.

ironically, there is one with arch-viles as the direct threat:

Arch-Vile Jump

[Guest Unregistered account]

Hi, I'm looking to contribute to this project and have started a map! Unfortunately, Imgur isn't working for me at the moment, so no indev screenshots yet. :(

But my level will be called Tomb of Unsanctuity.
Now that I'm actually making the level, I can fully appreciate how hard it is to make a level that isn't MAP01/30/31/32 without using keys. No Imps? That's slightly easier.

[joe-ilya]

What about "Clichatless doom"?
No imps, viles. No traps, no keys, no doors, nothing. Just make a fast paced map where you just reach the exit without any bullshit; just monsters, weapons, ammunition, health and powerups.
EDIT:Or just make a deathmatch map and fill it with monsters.

[Doomkid]

40oz said:

I for one am on board with the idea of making a megawad out of every insignificant little mapping gimmick possible leaving no innovation left for solo projects and killing the doom community once and for all.

A: I'm gonna make a map that uses crushers as the direct threat
B: Ughh, Crusher Community Project did that. It was boring as hell.
A: Well. What if I used Damaging floors instead?
B: Nukage Community Project did that too.
A: Umm well this map is going to have lots of catwalks and stuff--
B: Catwalks Community Project did it.
A: But then there will be Archviles--
B: Hunted Community Project did it.
A: But what if--
B: 6 rooms of Master Levels the way id did with 200 lines 2048 did it.

This is an excellent point. Perhaps it IS time for a classic, no limitations, no gimmick megawad.

"Create maps in boom format. Make them fun. Here is a texture pack!"

Hell, people could still make maps that don't simulate keys if they wanted to.

[DeathevokatioN]

Doomkid said:

Hell, people could still make maps that don't simulate keys if they wanted to.

Exactly, these limitations might be okay with a single level or so.... but an entire 32 levels dedicated to something like this and the limitation will start wearing thin.

[joe-ilya]

Doomkid said:

This is an excellent point. Perhaps it IS time for a classic, no limitations, no gimmick megawad.

NOVA is a limitationless megawad(at least in mapping)