NOVA II - Ver. 1.2 on /idgames (now with no missing keycards!)

Jaxxoon R said:

What needs to be refined in Demon Trench?

Just a few things. This is a reminder to everyone that I don't update the OP until I play the maps, so your map may be in the refining section for a while until I get around to it. Please be patient.

So I liked the things you added—the scarcity of health and ammo compliments the eerie nature of the map (and I think the midi fits like a glove). It's just that ammo can be a little too scarce, especially if you're like me and find 0 secrets and fail to pick up the berserk thanks to the mancs. I had to finish the map with 8% health, 0 ammo, and 3 barons still left running amok on the map, which is a little extreme. I think you should add 2 more shells on the path to get the blue key (ran out of ammo there), and I think you only need one manc to guard the berserk, as its practically necessary to finish the map with. The specters that warp in after the yellow key don't really do much (they serve to drain ammo is all) and might be better complimented having a hitscanner or three mixed in there. Lastly, you should texture the walls of the exit area with something like METAL, as you can see the ZIMMER details and it makes it obvious it's a small square room.

Pinchy said:

This is my current work in progress.

Played your map Pinchy—I thought it was interesting. Usually low tier enemies are a breeze to clean up but I liked how the player was being attacked from every angle in this one. Also due to the scarcity of health it did feel like quite a struggle near the end. Couple things:

The Exit NEEDS an exit sign. I actually wanted to sniff around for a few more secrets before I hit the switch, so I was a bit sad to end the level there. Also, I'd place a medikit in the exit room just for continuous players, since the map can be kinda harsh. I'd recommend changing Linedef 1801's SUPPORT3 texture since I kept running back to it thinking one of the switches would activate it like a lift. And lastly the midi should be changed, since most of us are tired of Doom 2's soundtrack by now. Otherwise good work!

So our opening gambit of maps is looking like:
MAP01 - Panic Station
MAP02 - Rocky Roofops
MAP03 - Deep Water
MAP04 - Andromeda Sun
MAP05 - Broken Outpost
MAP06 - Water Maim
MAP07 - 7hm's map*
MAP08 - Demon Trench
MAP09 - mrthejoshmon's map
MAP10 - Canyon Halls
MAP11 - jmickle's map*

7hm's map is a bit of a mystery until its finished, and Jmickle's map might go in E2 but I'm hesitant to put it there as I think Monument to Thieves is E2's signature long map. Which reminds me to mention, we're going to need a bit more late E2/early E3 maps, as so far we've been getting quite a few E1/E2 maps that aren't that rough, which really doesn't prepare the player for some obscenity awaiting them in E3.

I'm liking that E1 list. Might start an E3 map today, I suppose we do need more of those.

Also, I'll update Water Maim later today.

dobu gabu maru said:

Which reminds me to mention, we're going to need a bit more late E2/early E3 maps.

Agreed, also seems like we're allready overstocked with base/tech themed stuff, would be neat if we could get a few other themes for E2, maybe even some more jungle maps.

dobu gabu maru said:
Played your map Pinchy—I thought it was interesting. Usually low tier enemies are a breeze to clean up but I liked how the player was being attacked from every angle in this one. Also due to the scarcity of health it did feel like quite a struggle near the end. Couple things:

The Exit NEEDS an exit sign. I actually wanted to sniff around for a few more secrets before I hit the switch, so I was a bit sad to end the level there. Also, I'd place a medikit in the exit room just for continuous players, since the map can be kinda harsh. I'd recommend changing Linedef 1801's SUPPORT3 texture since I kept running back to it thinking one of the switches would activate it like a lift. And lastly the midi should be changed, since most of us are tired of Doom 2's soundtrack by now. Otherwise good work!

Great, I'll get to work on these tomorrow.

I tried finding a midi for hours but could not find anything suitable, I'll look into that midi pack to see what I can find.

If you are looking for more jungle maps as per the post below, I'll keep it in mind if I get any new ideas.

(typo in my map name in the list)

tourniquet said:

Agreed, also seems like we're allready overstocked with base/tech themed stuff

The same thing happened with the first NOVA—we actually had some tech-style bases spilling over into E3. Hopefully it won't be bad for this one as long as we address it early, and hopefully people remember to keep the E3 maps somewhat short since the episode is already pretty lengthy (sorry!).

And speaking of lengthy maps, I forgot to mention that I think we should do up cannonball's idea of a Megiddo pt.2 for MAP32, this time with 5 different mappers—any non-NOVA vets are allowed to contribute. I'm not sure what to do for the hub (I was thinking of remixing the old one, but maybe a new one by a new person would be more fitting), but if anyone wants to sign up in advance for it, feel free to do so. We also need a new MAP30 idea, and I'm definitely open to a non-IoS battle for that one.

Pinchy said:

I tried finding a midi for hours but could not find anything suitable, I'll look into that midi pack to see what I can find.

Don't forget that Jimmy made some music that might be cool to use for the project.

So I have some screenshots to show that I'm actually working on a map!









And a comedy reverse shot of the 4th image, because I love love love broken map nonsense. Don't worry, players won't actually be able to view the map from here:



I'd peg layout at being around 90% done, with architecture around 40%, texturing about 20%, lighting and thing placement around 10% and playtesting around 5% (I found a sweet speedrunning trick that's totally staying in), but I've actually got a good chunk of the map done tonight so hey, progress!

EDIT: And though I'm still looking for an apropriate MIDI, I've been doing a lot of building tonight whilst listening to omen1196.midi by KevinHEZ, which has the appropriately atmospheric yet urgent kind of tone I'm looking for.

I like the updates to my map. Looks really nice.

I played through the next set of maps (up to just past Joe's map) and recorded the session. I'll toss it up on YouTube and make some more detailed notes once I rewatch the video.

Quick hit though: in jmickle's map you can trigger the revenant floor pop up room without being fully engaged, and by backing up before the door shuts behind you, you can get locked out of the room. This breaks the map, as far as I can tell.

dobu gabu maru said:

We also need a new MAP30 idea, and I'm definitely open to a non-IoS battle for that one.

You called? Let me know if you need any DeHackEd abominations for the final boss. :)

Also I still kinda wanna submit something for this, it's just that progress has been a bit slow.

Further thoughts:

- I still really like Canyon Halls. It got piss hard for me at the end though (because I'm not that good) and ammo got reeeeally tight. It felt like ammo / HP distribution was kind of messed up through the level. You get far too much in the middle, not enough at the end.

- I just was not in the mood to replay MrJoshtheman's map. Those first couple minutes are atrocious, and I looked at the monster count and said fuck it. I'll give it another kick when I'm in more of a mood for a slaughter-y map.

- I quite like Hop 2 It's setup, but think it would benefit greatly from heavier armaments. Toss a RL or SSG in there, make other adjustments for the difficulty as need be. It's not that killing a baron and a couple mid tier guys with a CG / SG is hard (though ammo on the CG is limited), it's that it's boring.

- Brick Trick Break was good until you get the red key. Very early Doom with the teleporters, the texture choices, and the sunken switch. I didn't think the Archi was well used. Having him up on a piller to get pot shot or kill you because you didn't notice him is a crappy use. He'd have been better wandering around. Still not dangerous, but at least not just pop out and blow him away.

The ending of Brick Trick Break is really not fun. Again with the lack of armaments / ammunition. Also that corridor with the Cacos. And the teleport trap. And the pain elemental you can't see until he fills the room with lost souls.

- I really enjoyed Red Morning Light. Second time playing through it. Not much to say. This and Canyon Halls are probably the best put together maps so far (from the first half at least).

- Monster Dash was also pretty fun.

- Zebetite reminded me of BTSX in terms of looks. Very pretty map. The gameplay was kind of like BTSX too, but more raw. It really felt like the map was going to handle you very roughly if you didn't have foreknowledge of the encounters. A couple in particular bugged me: the arachnatron that met me at the bottom of the stairs, the pop-up arena combat with the archi, mancubi, and revs. The cyber was great though.

I was pretty bad about save / loading in this session vs the first one so other balance comments I'd have are kind of wonky. I'm also not that good, so obviously for real difficulty comments listen to people who are better (I'm thinking stuff like the pop-up arena combat... maybe that's fine? I still think lack of ammo / arms is a problem no matter how good you are, because all it does is prolong the fight).

dobu gabu maru said:

We also need a new MAP30 idea, and I'm definitely open to a non-IoS battle for that one.

As someone who doesn't know DeHackEd editing very well, I have this question: Is it in any way possible to turn the Icon of Sin into an actual enemy?

EDIT: Updated Water Maim:

-added a teleporter so players can get back across the lowered bridge
-replaced the exit hell knight (let's see how this works)
-added a MIDI

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/106557511/ad79_watermaim_20150110.zip

Stopping in to:

a: Say that I'm still reworking and expanding my submission.

b: Ask a Doom Builder question that the tutorials don't really cover: How do you tag hidden doors/walls to open after moving over a sector? I'm trying to set up the old "grab a keycard and the walls come down revealing monsters" gag, but it doesn't seem to be triggering on my tests.

NuclearPotato said:

How do you tag hidden doors/walls to open after moving over a sector?

You set the action to a linedef, not a sector: set the linedefs that make up the sector to "W1 Floor Lower to Lowest Floor" and you're set.

AD_79 said:

As someone who doesn't know DeHackEd editing very well, I have this question: Is it in any way possible to turn the Icon of Sin into an actual enemy?

You can have a monster that fires spawn cubes very easily, but it has to be on MAP30 and you have to make sure it can't reach the Monster Destinations otherwise it'll telefrag itself.

Ok, I played through Mrthejoshman's map.

I like the Odessa series and what I've played of Eternal Doom. I like puzzles. But this is some horrific obfuscation puzzle shit.

The whole map is very scatterbrained. The outdoor area is cool and refills several times with various baddies. You've even got the cyberdemon encounter to liven things up (pitched at a not very difficult level because of space and infighting). That part seems like an ok intro slaughter map style thing. A change of pace. But then you've got this entire indoor corridor shooter area where it's basically just "enter room, mow down monsters all standing in a row, go to next room". And then you get to the end and realize that in fact this must be some kind of absurd puzzle map, so you wander around a bit through an empty map trying to figure it out, and then when that doesn't work you open doom builder and see that "oh, of course, I needed to activate that one random linedef hidden in the ceiling".

One problem is that the outdoors area is totally disconnected from the indoors area. As far as I know, you don't need to do anything outdoors other than get onto the teleport pad. It feels like this map is wasting my time with pointless monster spam.

The puzzle exit is of course another problem. It's actually fine and good, but not as mandatory progression. It should be a secret.

One solution to both issues: put a key at the end of the base down there with the mancubus. Put a great big key door outdoors, and have it laid out in such a way that it will basically require you to deal with the outdoors fights in order to access the key door. Put the normal exit there. Leave your insane tunnel puzzle as a secret exit.

e: Also, seriously, 450 monsters. Gimme a SSG dammit.

7hm said:

Quick hit though: in jmickle's map you can trigger the revenant floor pop up room without being fully engaged, and by backing up before the door shuts behind you, you can get locked out of the room. This breaks the map, as far as I can tell.

Technically it doesn't break the map, but it's a pretty awful oversight on my part. I'll fix it when I can.

dobu gabu maru said:

And speaking of lengthy maps, I forgot to mention that I think we should do up cannonball's idea of a Megiddo pt.2 for MAP32,

Yeah sure i think we should stick to that idea, the old hub was great and personally i don't mind if we would remix it, though i could also try to create a new one unless it's not required to be shaped like a pentagram.

We also need a new MAP30 idea, and I'm definitely open to a non-IoS battle for that one.

I like the idea of a boss fight and with Obsidian aboard we're definitly able to create something fancy.

7hm said:

Stuff regarding Zebetite

Cheers for playing, most of the points you've mentioned have allready been modified.

I'd love to feedback on people's maps (I have played some of them) but am too bloody busy :P

* Currently I'm converting the techbase into hell.

* I have started building a proper hell section which the player teleports into.

* Light levels in the technbase have been generally darkened.

* There will be more secrets around the start area.

* There will be more and larger teleport traps, especially when you get into hell.

These are shots from the alpha of the map that I uploaded last week:

i have a wip if you are interested.

^ Always interested in new maps! And an Obsidian custom boss sounds like a great idea. Whoever claims the MAP30 spot should consider discussing it with him. Or perhaps we could just have him take the MAP30 slot.

I sort of heavily promoted this project on my stream just now for a little while; hope that brings in an extra mapper or two on board!

After the first update: Rocky Rooftops Version 2

I decided to add the chaingun as a non secret late in the map so the player can clean up with the chaingun if they want to.

I've changed the wad files to set it to MAP02 as well.

And here's the second draft of my map, now titled "Halls of Chgota" (Even though I haven't figured out how to get the title to show up in game). Still tentatively labeled MAP02, even though it's likely going to be in a later episode, if approved.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1bX8V5Yr798Nk9kbkNKV2N1Qnc/view?usp=sharing

Similar layout to the last upload, but I revamped the red key room and added something resembling a final encounter. Also added a less bland overall texture to the level, though there's still plenty of details left to add, along with lighting, which I have some ideas for. I'm thinking of adding one final encounter area to the map, to give things a little more punch. Should I, or is it okay as is?

A Shrine to Madness

^ Good title!

Played "Halls of Chgota". Soooo it's basically the same map but with some traps after every key now, which still isn't giving me a good impression. Texture and lighting is missing and though you say it'll be included in the next rendition, you really shouldn't be updating your map without it at this stage. All you really leave me to discuss is the gameplay, and despite the traps it's a wholly linear affair with very direct gameplay outside of the first scuffle. Even with new texturing and an additional final battle, it's still going not going to be an exciting map to play, and it's likely something you may have to abandon. That doesn't mean to stop mapping, but now that you got your feet wet, try another layout and see if you can make the encounters more interesting.

NuclearPotato said:

And here's the second draft of my map, now titled "Halls of Chgota" (Even though I haven't figured out how to get the title to show up in game). Still tentatively labeled MAP02, even though it's likely going to be in a later episode, if approved.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1bX8V5Yr798Nk9kbkNKV2N1Qnc/view?usp=sharing

Similar layout to the last upload, but I revamped the red key room and added something resembling a final encounter. Also added a less bland overall texture to the level, though there's still plenty of details left to add, along with lighting, which I have some ideas for. I'm thinking of adding one final encounter area to the map, to give things a little more punch. Should I, or is it okay as is?

Here are some tips:

- Beat your map on a pistol start before submitting it - It took many tries to beat this from a pistol start and required infighting with the hell knight.

- Play some iwad maps and observe the architecture and how lighting/traps and items are done.

- If you are designing traps, put the monsters so they come out or appear behind/surround the player and use W1 Door Open Stay (fast) to reduce escape time. Teleports are fast but more complex.

- Add various lighting that is caused naturally by things such as indoor lighting objects, sunlight or lava. You can put light textures on the ceiling in some places to make them bright and make the other areas without lights dark.

- Add some height variation to the rooms and give them a shape that could be seen as an abstract version of a real room, like a barracks having bunks or a storage room having shelves.

Pinchy said:

- Beat your map on a pistol start before submitting it - It took many tries to beat this from a pistol start and required infighting with the hell knight.

So most of this is good shit for me to keep in mind, and I've already started sketching out a new map to work on, per dobu's reccomendation. That said, I actually can pistol start Halls of Chgota. This is mostly because, being the author, I was well aware of the plasma gun secret in the Hell Knight room, which I hid behind an unmarked section of wall. I think the takeaway I'm getting from this is "Make sure you can pistol start your map without having to rely on obscure, unmarked secrets." Also, "Give people a chance to find your secrets without having to run around the whole level mashing the use key."

NuclearPotato said:

"Make sure you can pistol start your map without having to rely on obscure, unmarked secrets."

A good rule of thumb is to make sure you can beat your map finding NO secrets. I'm a player that rarely hunts out secrets I don't find along the way, and if I miss integral secrets I will gripe about it.

Indeed. I (along with many other people, I would think) tend to give the resources you need to beat the map to the player as they progress normally, so while it might be a bit tight it's in every way doable.

Pinchy said:

After the first update: Rocky Rooftops

I decided to add the chaingun as a non secret late in the map so the player can clean up with the chaingun if they want to.

I've changed the wad files to set it to MAP02 as well.

Played this, and liked this, I can't really offer many suggests here as this was a solid map. Certainly enough threat considering there isn't much health and there are plenty of angles of attack.

Shrine to Madness looks amazing.

NuclearPotato, as someone who has also left lighting til last, and am in the middle of re-detailing an entire map to change its theme, I would strongly recommend stopping all other work and fixing the lighting now if you haven't already. Good lighting is crucial to a map's realism, it's one of the best ways to break up any potential monotony and can be used to striking effect.

Consolidate what you've got before building more. Trust me on this, it is frustrating but in the long run will remove a source of stress.