The DWmegawad Club plays: NOVA II

OK, my second attempt at finishing a megawad with you guys, let's hope this turns out well. Also, I've never played this one before, so let's see what happens.

Risen3D - UV-fast - continuous - with freelook & saves

MAP01 - Panic Station
100/100/100

A good opening map by cannonball, a little more difficult than I expected because of hitscanners. Secrets are easy, but those rapid firing shotgunners are a pain in the ass.

13 deaths, and curiously all of them was because of hitscanners (I had to rely on infighting with the revs-pinkies, but I didn't die there).

Cool opening.

MAP02 - Rocky Rooftops
100/100/100

Another small map, but that shotgunners are quite dangerous, the Soul Sphere literally saved my ass. Not much more to say here, just that it ends too early... But anyway, I like it.

3 deaths.

MAP03 - Deep Water
81/80/50

A "bad savegame, incosistency" message, or something like that, so it's pistol start from here.

A lot more difficult than the first two, not just because I had to pistol start, but because there are several Revenants, Mancubi, and Hell Knights, not to mention the red key room, with an Arch-Vile and a fucking PE. Honestly I had almost run out of ammo at this point, so I just avoided them all and rushed to the exit.

16 deaths.

Hopefully my savegame won't fuck up again, otherwise I'll be having a really hard time with these maps.

Oh go on then, I haven't tried pistol starting all these maps so I'll see how that goes.

MAP01 - "Panic Station" by cannonball

A good starter map this, it has a very conventional theme and layout, definitely don't think it should be swapped with map02 which is a bit more unusual. For some reason even though I've played this map a number of times I still don't know how to open the secret to the blue armour. I've even got it in the past. However I did manage to get in here:

and I'm not sure I'm supposed to.

MAP02 - "Rocky Rooftops" by Pinchy

An easygoing map, but I like how it has a simple overall structure complicated by the cluttered interior, which makes it a bit unpredictable. That secret soulsphere is hardly even necessary unless you have some bad luck I guess. I don't mind easy maps if they have a story to tell, and there definitely seems to be something going on here with the scenery.

MAP03 - "Deep Water" by KevinHEZ

Very nice craftsmanship in this map, one thing I would say is that it features a lot of steep steps that monsters can't navigate, which may be intentional I dunno. Having a pinky behind a door with some steps it can't get down makes him a bit useless, but I understand if its meant to make things easy for the player, being only map03. The archvile encounter certainly stepped things up a notch, took me by surprise that, even though I played the map before. I did remember the exit trap this time though.

I'll jump in for this one. Just recently registered, been playing doom sine I was a kid in the 90's. I'll be playing this on Ultra Violence, continuous.

Map 1 Panic Station
Quite a hectic opener for a Map 1! Confronted with a multitude of hitscanners, imps and a couple of pinkies with only 4 shells. I let the demons into the starting area and ran past the door. Frantic pistolling of shotgun guns for some much needed shells to grab a foothold, took quite a bit of damage but made it through. Some solid doom action follows, quite an onslaught of imps in the corridors and we even find a chaingunner, his chaingun sitting on top of that inaccessable platform teasing me! I liked the corridor which overlooks the final courtyard, even there there are shotgunners which can snipe at you.

The berserk proved handy in the demon room with the computer screens. Got all the secrets, I quite like it when secret items are there teasing you and you have to figure out how to get it. The blue armour secret was pretty obvious though. The ending fight was well done IMO, good usage of lost souls and demons which can really fuck you up while you are fighting the revs. I enjoyed this map. Harsh for a map 1 for sure, but good solid action. I found there to be more than enough health to get through it, especially at the end.

Map 2 Rocky Rooftops
Shorter and easier than Map 1. Good view of all the zombiemen at the first switch, just screaming for a rocket launcher or BFG lol. Oddly enough, that tiny ledge at the first switch can't be crossed while later on in the map much taller stairs can. A higher barrier would've worked better here. Pretty easy, just mow down a pack of imps near the soulsphere secret followed by zombieman/shotgunner massacre. I ddin't take much damage as I stood off to the side, but rambo-ing the pack could leave you reeling.

I liked the soulpshere secret, a refreshing change from the usual textured wall. Took a few tries to figure out where the sound of the lift was coming from and another few frustrating tries to figure out the best tactic for ledge running and NOT falling down. The switch next to that lift is poorly placed, I expected it to operate the lift but instead opens something somewhere, probably the staircase to the chaingun platform, but I dunno. Another decent exit trap with demons and imps pelting you from the sides. I enjoyed it.

Map 3 Deep Water
Shit starts to get real. Died once in the red key room. Some good infighting opportunities in the water trench room and the water pump room. Had a chaingunner kill a caco in the later and was working on his second when he got hit by a stray revenant missile. Meanwhile, two cacos joined forces to murder a hell knight. In the trench room, we have a berserk AND a soulpshere secret. That counts as poor thing placement in my book. On the way to the outdoor area we meet our first Mancubus in a wide hallway. Avoiding his fireballs by camping is not as effective as it might seem, due to the angle of the walls either side of the entrance.

We finally get the super shotgun in the outdoor area, ready to murder those Mancubi. Noticed I was getting sniped and found two chaingunners in a cubby up high, gave them the rocket treatment because those pricks deserve nothing less. Now we come to the red key room. The first major encounter of the wad. Off to the side we have a nukage room with a few hitscanners and imps, with a green armour in the nukage guarded by demons. To get the armour you basically have to take forced damage. Pointless IMO, a berserk pack or blue armour would've been a better reward.

So we hit the red key room. Took the lift to the right and got the Arachnotron to murder the Hell Knight. Grabbing the key, the real fun starts. Archvile and goddamn Pain Elemental with a few lost souls for good measure. While the Archvile revives all the meat, I get trolled by that damn PE. Died here the first time because I rocketed a fuckign lost soul in the face not once, but twice. Was down to 1% health, frantically killed a caco and a Hell Knight only to be finished off by a spider while my back was turned. Took a different approach the second time. Went back to grab the soulsphere and this time I'd sneak up on the PE and stun it with the chaingun, then rocket the archvile. Gotta be careful, because of the architecture of the room, you gotta watch his every move because he can see you from almost anywhere. Much more successful this time, went in with 190 health, left with 162.

The exit trap was a tricky bastard. Open the door, confront a revenant, but that pillar behind you also releases a revenant. Yeah, I got hit! Good to see these exit traps being more creative than the usual demon or achvile in the exit room.

To think I believed I would be first, what with playing the map so early in the morning and all. Shows what I know!

MAP04: Andromeda Sun by Getsu Fune

Oh wow, now that's a unique style. Well, the vast, sparsely populated outdoors and dark underground tunnels do remind me of Evilution, but still this has a different character to it. The main dangers here are hitscanners and the stingy ammmo placement. Without those two factors, this map would basically have no gameplay to speak of, but the funny thing is that this doesn't particularly hurt it. It seems to want to try and be some kind of alien, eerie mood piece before all else, a feeling to which the solemn and soothing soundtrack certainly contributes, sounding like a late dungeon theme in some console-style RPG. Overall, I think it works very well.

However, things change once you go through the blue door (whichever one). You are greeted with an elaborately crafted puzzle sequence which I enjoyed quite a bit. I don't quite understand the red door house though. "S", "M", "P" ? Is there some kind of puzzle sequence which I just happened to solve on the first try or what ? How mysterious. That final fight was a cool moment, but again too forgiving. I did this map with a pistol start, on UV, and exited it with 156% health on my first try. Side note, I love how elaborate the exit portal is even though its weird structure serves no purpose. It's always good to see mappers give that kind of attention to the world building aspect of their work (I'm not going to call it "detail" because then some people might misunderstand my point).

Definitely the most interesting map yet.

MAP04:

What a strange journey this was. Enjoyable, but strange. Don't really know what else to say, so I'll just list some bugs I encountered:

-Visual Glitch
-Got stuck in red key thing by jumping into it from stairs
-Berserk secret sector is hard to register
-SSG secret is visible on map (maybe intentional?)

So far, this is looking to be a pretty fun megawad :^) By the way, is there any chance we can get a list of the first time mappers from the project?

MAP03 Deep Water:

A pretty good map but it's feels a bit large for a map 3 and I'm not a fan of large maps. There is a pretty good feel of progression because the heavy hitters don't come up till later. That first Arch-vile (Not sure if there was another or not, I don't remember) got me because I went straight for the PE not knowing that an Arch-vile was near at the time and he managed to revive enough enemies to kick my ass. Good map, challenging but too big for my taste.

MAP04: Andromeda Sun

Like MAP02 this is a nontraditional map with a somewhat experimental feel to it, in this case taking advantage of the Doom engine's ability to draw vast spaces to send the player on an epic journey across a harsh and barren wilderness dotted with ruins. The sparse detail of those wilderness sections helps to create a sense of scale, and of isolation; it also makes the more detailed and obviously 'constructed' sections of the map all the more noticeable. All of it is very abstract and I was left wondering just what sort of place I'd just traversed; was the blue key section a laboratory or shelter of some kind? Was the green stone structure at the end some kind of ancient shrine or temple? The comparison that springs to mind is to 5till L1 Complex, albeit more straightforward; it's got that same creeping, haunting atmosphere to it.

So at the beginning of my video I ask myself has Getsu Fune improved his mapping since the first Nova, after playing through this map I can quickly say no not really. This map suffers from several issues, the biggest of which is that the map it is just overly large. Problems that arise because of the large size are, very boring visuals & game play, the map is too damn empty to be fun with nothing interesting to look at. It seems Getsu was trying for an atmospheric map, which I think he fails at, I had no sense of dread or worry at any time during the map, I was just bored. There are some puzzles in this map, the first one I sort of bumbled my way through & the second one I get by only hitting the green switch, which seemed logical to me. I suggest putting in a better visual cue that a step has raised so that you can enter the central marble structure, perhaps a noticeable set of steps, or a step facing the doorway that holds the switches. Also I don't get what the P M & S stand for, I hit the P which raised a step, what's up with that. So far Nova 2 started off great, but each passing map gets a little bit worse.

Not to derail the thread, but I'd like to suggest the notion that "atmosphere" doesn't have to mean "scary" just because it's Doom. Look at stuff like A.L.T, or, in a different flavor, Scythe 2's fifth episode, the later maps in Resurgence, Vanguard's first episode (especially MAP02), or even Lunatic as a whole. None of these are horror-themed in the slightest, yet the moods they all carry are very strong. I personally find "Andromeda Sun" very contemplative.

MAP04 - "Andromeda Sun" by Getsu Fune

Hmm.. i'd be more forgiving of this map if it really was a new author, but thats not really the case any more. I do get that it is going for a melancholic kind of vibe with the large empty spaces, but with the very sparse detailing and bland basic geometry it just comes across as a rough sketch of a map. The layout itself has potential in that it is kind of exploratory, but despite some random islands of scenery and moments of mild peril the journey doesn't really lead anywhere interesting. The gameplay is a bit weak and sporadic, mostly thats the fault of the overly spacious design, but it wouldn't be such a problem if the visuals were more engaging. Its a limit removing project, so if this was my map I'd spend more time making the rocky landscape look more organic.

I seem to suck at this commitment thing but here we go again... I thought I'd record something for every map and seeing as FDAs are already covered by Demon of the Well & others, I'll do the most half-assed UV-maxes you will ever see and provide comments from that point of view. Setup is prboom+ 2.5.1.4 test -cl2 and playing with nova2_D2_1.wad.

Demos for maps 01-03.

Map01: Panic Station by cannonball

A surprisingly quick and fast-paced opener for Nova II. Not your usual map01 nor your usual cannonball map but the latter is not so surprising considering it wasn't originally his map in the first place. It was an alright map to max, can't really think of much that really needs changing. Secrets serve their purpose and can be accessed easily enough. I guess you could move the RL closer to the entrance of the cave to speed things up; the "secret" part of that secret is the lift anyway so I'm not sure if it adds anything to the sequence to have it all the way back there. Weapon progression is fine and depends quite a lot on the route I guess. SG-CG-zerk-RL was my route and it worked pretty good considering zerk isn't really needed until after I went for the RL and RL is needed mostly in the final Rev ambush (with a few strategically placed rockets among the smaller hordes earlier perhaps). CG is pretty powerful in this map so I thought it was good that ammo for it was somewhat sparse and I had to change to SG once in a while too. Regarding the BK and whether it should be trapped; I'd rather it be like this since the map flows reall well as it is.

Map02: Rocky Rooftops by Pinchy

Hmm, well this was different for sure. Interesting style definitely and works well enough for casual playing but for uv-maxing purposes it's another story. The soulsphere secret is really annoying to reach, breaks whatever flow there might have been in the map and to reach it you're better off having everybody on ground floor dead, essentially rendering the soulsphere itself quite useless. The Imps (things 95 & 96) in the health potion alcove seem to serve little purpose as well and could be removed completely if you ask me. The Demon on top of the northern building (thing 138) should really be some other type of enemy, like a Sarge or a Chaingunner perhaps. Also agree with dobu that adding a third Demon to the final trap would do wonders. Sector 14 right at the start has the glowing light on the ceiling as well which looks pretty dumb.

Map03: Deep Water by KevinHEZ

Definitely a quality map this one, really enjoyed playing both casually and while recording. The map does feel a bit like two maps in one, with the blue door being the dividing point between the two. It is highlighted further by the the layouts and different combat dynamics in both "sides" of the map. First part is CG/SG action mostly and the second part is all SSG and RL. I don't really mind this two-maps-in-one -thing since the first part is pretty much what you expect for an early mapslot and the second part can be blitzed through with reckless abandon even though the enemies are mostly mid-tier.

Nothing too fancy is required here speedrunning-wise. No reason to rush to the SSG as you don't get to visit the first part of the map again unless you backtrack so working with what you're given is the logical option in the first part of the map. The big area beyond the YK door requires provoking some infights for maximum efficiency but it's not that difficult to do so it shouldn't be much of a pain in the ass in legit maxrun attemps. Second part is really straightforward kill what you encounter -action. The RK room has a lot of rockets and making most of them requiresd some strategizing. I certainly did not make the most of them in my demo. I really loved how my ammo situation developed in the RK room though. However accidental it was that I had so few shells upon entering, the way things unfolded was pretty great. Take out the HK and resort to CG against the Arachs or skip the HK and go for the Arachs to make some room in order to grab more shells? I chose the latter and prevailed. I love these kind of surprising situations that require quick decision making when I record.

As for improvements, the switch that reveals the first green armor should be repeatable for sure. Not an issue really in maxruns but could be when casually playing the map for the first time. The Mega-armor is kind of redundant since it's so close to the second green armor and there's hardly need for extra protection in the final few fights so I'd probably change the Mega with some other reward. What that other reward could be is a good question though. A soulsphere would probably be excessive, PG or extra rockets would change how you approach the RK battle a bit I would guess so some testing would be required I suppose. The room in which the first RL is located is a little underwhelming imo. I'd lose the door and make it some kind of a large alcove instead. You could even keep the Zombiemen and have them assault from the alcove when you engage in combat with the Rev.

MAP04: Andromeda Sun - Getsu Fune
| Kills: 167/168 | Items: 130/133 | Secrets: 3/3 | Time: 16:48 | Deaths: 0 |

Oh dear.
Sometimes I wonder if it ever comes across that I only care about visuals and atmosphere in maps. My favourite maps do tend to have those elements in common (e.g. Jenesis MAP10, Resurgence MAP31, Valiant MAP09 and 10, etc. etc.) Well, if for some reason I have to dispel that suggestion, this map is high on my list of examples.

Despite a relatively strong sense of atmosphere, even if it visually pretty weak, this map is made up almost entirely of huge areas that lack the gameplay you need to keep said areas interesting. Granted, it tries to invoke difficulty by sparse health placement, but lets face it, just about every monster here is next to useless when they're only encountered in small groups in areas that are thousands of map units wide. In fact the only combat here that could be considered interesting is that last fight with the soulsphere temple, and even that was very trivial to deal with.

The secrets seem poorly designed. The first one I found was the chaingun secret, and wasn't even remotely hidden. The second one I seemed to trigger just by pressing use on a bookcase (wtf). The third one was fine, though it should maybe be hidden on automap, if you have the normal "odd texturing" thing going on (I forgot already).

The red key room. Oh shit. I don't know if I'm just stupid, but it took me a while to even work out what the switches actually even did in that room, then when I finally figured it out, I jumped from the stairs into the red key (because there was no indication as to what you were supposed to do, so I went with my instincts), then couldn't get back out, so noclip came in handy there. Personally I'd scrap that gimmick entirely and just have the traditional key ambush, since monsters are already set up to teleport in to that area.

Weakest map in the set so far, and sadly, by quite a significant distance. Really hope the mapset doesn't get worse than this D:
Sorry Getsu :/

I had completely forgot to mention that Andromeda Sun is actually a very old map, which explains the primitive design. in fact, I made it around the time I finished MAP32 of the first NOVA, although I was not sure what I was gonna do with it, so I gave it away here. in a way, it is STILL TOTALLY a newb map, but my presence in the previous NOVA seems to overshadow that thought. since no one apparently reads my posts in the other thread or on my twitter.

the red key puzzle, there are four fixtures with two buttons each. Whatever color the fixture is is the button you should press. so if it was red you push the red button, if green then the green one.

'P' causes a step to arise so you can do the soulsphere battle.
'M' teleports a monsters (caco or hellknight)
'S' shotgun guys teleport around you.

for an extra hint, the CORRECT switch in that room has a green light on it.

Not to derail the thread, but I'd like to suggest the notion that "atmosphere" doesn't have to mean "scary" just because it's Doom.

Right, and that's practically the same for at least one half of MTJ's map later on.

Veinen said:

I'll do the most half-assed UV-maxes you will ever see and provide comments from that point of view.

Cool looking forward to that, also good luck with map32. On a sidenote Maps 15/17/29 & 32 can either be played on CL2 or 9 since they contain some cosmetic boom stuff.

Map 4 Andromeda Sun

Did not like this at all. Too big, very bland and nothing in the way of engaging gameplay. You start out facing a huge stepped green area (the steps nearly as tall as Doomguy himself) with some spread out zombiemen and ammo clips placed at the very edges, so for pistol starters its a pointless slog to gather some ammo.

Going under that bridge thing, there are more sparsely placed imps and zombiemen and a Pestov Structure with more Imps. There are TWO shell boxes right next to each other, a bit generous IMO, as in the berserk secret building there are more than enough shotgun guys to replenish your shells. Heading back out into the vast green expanse of boredom, there is a building with imps patrolling the roof and what appears to be a door, but it doesn't do anything and is not even a secret. The underground area is far too big and plain, with boring gameplay.

The red key puzzle was unnecessary. A pain in the ass to work out for first time players. Even the obvious clues didn't seem to make it straightforward. The blue key appeared to be misplaced, I gather it was supposed to be at the pinnacle of that circular pyramid structure, but here it was off to the side on one of the steps.

The finale bought some more intense gameplay finally, with a Pain Elemental, Shotgunners, Imps and Lost souls to kill before entering the building with the M S P puzzle. I flipped the switches in alphabetical order and that apparently solved the puzzle, teleporting in a bunch of Shotgunners and a couple Cacos. The final fight was fun, a mass of imps of shotgunners teleporting into the marble structure upon grabbing the soulsphere. I had some fun berserking those imps, rage gibbing them to shit.

A let down after the last 3 fun maps, both for gameplay and architecture. It would've worked better if it was scaled down IMO.

ZDoom - HMP - Pistol Starts

MAP04: Andromeda Sun

Thematically there's some potentional here, but in it's present state this map requires a lot of work. Both the visuals and gameplay are too sparse and sketchy to really engage the player.

Map04 : Andromena Sun
Played on HNTR, HMP, and UV. Completed each with 100% kills and secrets with an average time of 13 minutes, just like the last map. Died seven times(!) To be fair, I was playing rather recklessly a lot of the time. Running through large open spaces with hitscanners and little to no armor is usually not the smartest idea.

I feel basically the same way about this map that the majority of people before me have felt about it, though there a few things to mention. I say these points directly to the map's author, Getsu:

1) I actually really like the Chaingun secret. It's a nice surprise that benefits players who take the time to explore. I found it completely on accident, and was quite intrigued.

2) The atmosphere is this map is quite good. It is not trying to be scary, but rather lonely. That said, the map needs some major detailing added.

Let's start with the opening room. I understand that the map's intention is to feel sprawling and almost empty, but this area needs something more. My suggestion: add a twisting dirt road down the middle. This would help divide the area so it isn't all just grass, and the room would still be wide enough that the sprawling atmosphere would remain.

My interpretation of this map is that it is exploring the ruins of what may have been a sprawling town, correct? If so, my suggestion for helping the map feel more alive while still maintaining the sense of abandonment: add high ledges along some of the outside walls, and put more buildings and other structures on top of them.

This would help make the map more interesting visually, and help feed the player's sense that this place really is abandoned. Think about it: the player is only a small ant traversing large, open fields of what used to be civilization. All above him, in plain view, are husks of a city. He wants to reach these buildings, explore them, see them up close. But alas, the bridges and stairs that once made them accessible have long since rotted away.

I got this idea from the bridge with the imps and sergeants on it near the beginning. Looking up towards it, I could not help but feel a hint of somberness knowing that I could never reach it. At least not without cheats, anyways :p

3) I enjoy the puzzle room. I got a little confused at first, but after a minute, I figured out the order needed. Really, it isn't too hard.

4) I believe a light-amp visor somewhere within the dark corridors would REALLY help. They could even be included in one of the secrets.

5) Don't be discouraged by the map's reception. I had fun playing it despite its faults, and I know with some detailing and tweaking, it can be made better. The map already has a sense of atmosphere, it just needs a little work visually and gameplay wise to reach its potential.

Edit: One last point: I also like the Berserk secret, too. It is obtained weirdly, but I like it. In fact, perhaps it's Doomguy reading about the berserk that gives him the powerup!

MAP04 - Andromeda Sun

91/99/66

I don't know what to say about this one. Architecture is certainly not impressive, but the gameplay is there. Yeah, very few monsters given the ammount of space available, but it's not boring. The red key puzzle was simple and cool, but I think I didn't completely get the one behind the red door, I mean, it's obvious what should be done, but I don't get what those letters on the floor stand for.

7 deaths.

Tactical Stiffy said:

A pretty good map but it's feels a bit large for a map 3 and I'm not a fan of large maps.

Just warning you, there are some massive ones in this set.

MAP04: A love it or hate it exploration map (there’s a couple maps in NOVA II that are quite niche). Getsu is likely my polar opposite—I work on cramped spaces and excessive detail, while Getsu focuses more on free-range spaces with the occasional landmarks here ‘n there. This map takes that idea to its extreme, giving the player a sense of loneliness and desolation despite the abundant amount of hitscanners loitering around. The combat here feels like it merely “exists” rather than being specifically designed (despite a handful of trappy encounters), and thus I don’t think it holds up too well on a replay unless you enjoy the atmospheric austerity. It’s good to have variation in a 32 level mapset though, so the occasional stroll through a vast landscape is a welcome change. Also, due to my general incompetence of fighting hitscanners from afar, it's one of the most dangerous E1 maps for me.

EDIT: Like Jaws brought up, I think it's important to signify better to the player that the steps to the final arena have raised after hitting the "P" switch

obake said:

1) I actually really like the Chaingun secret. It's a nice surprise that benefits players who take the time to explore. I found it completely on accident, and was quite intrigued.

very much cheers, my thoughts on the map reflect why I put it there. although I can't remember if I put a non-secret one in the map anywherr.

2) The atmosphere is this map is quite good. It is not trying to be scary, but rather lonely. That said, the map needs some major detailing added.

Let's start with the opening room. I understand that the map's intention is to feel sprawling and almost empty, but this area needs something more. My suggestion: add a twisting dirt road down the middle. This would help divide the area so it isn't all just grass, and the room would still be wide enough that the sprawling atmosphere would remain.

My interpretation of this map is that it is exploring the ruins of what may have been a sprawling town, correct? If so, my suggestion for helping the map feel more alive while still maintaining the sense of abandonment: add high ledges along some of the outside walls, and put more buildings and other structures on top of them.

This would help make the map more interesting visually, and help feed the player's sense that this place really is abandoned. Think about it: the player is only a small ant traversing large, open fields of what used to be civilization. All above him, in plain view, are husks of a city. He wants to reach these buildings, explore them, see them up close. But alas, the bridges and stairs that once made them accessible have long since rotted away.

I got this idea from the bridge with the imps and sergeants on it near the beginning. Looking up towards it, I could not help but feel a hint of somberness knowing that I could never reach it. At least not without cheats, anyways :p

the thought of further detailing it was considered. however, when I attempted to do it, I sulked at the design decision and deleted it. It's really hard to make it right because you just can't. there's two types of Doom map designs and no one can say otherwise: the ones who like simplistic detailing and the ones who like modern detailing. I fit in the former category with EXTREME prejudice.

4) I believe a light-amp visor somewhere within the dark corridors would REALLY help. They could even be included in one of the secrets.

huh, it would help. the SSG secret could use it, definitely.

5) Don't be discouraged by the map's reception. I had fun playing it despite its faults, and I know with some detailing and tweaking, it can be made better. The map already has a sense of atmosphere, it just needs a little work visually and gameplay wise to reach its potential.

that's ok. I actually reacted (and will do so again) a bit negatively about some of the later maps myself in the other thread, notable MAP05 and the two cannonball maps past MAP01. also, I played MAP12 again and didn't like it the second time playing either. all these thoughts will come soon, brace yourselves.

Zed said:

but I don't get what those letters on the floor stand for.

did you not read my post earlier on this page.

oh, and as for the blue key that was mentioned earlier, this was a bug that even tourniquet couldn't fix, so he misplaced the key as a loophole, blame him.

Getsu Fune said:

did you not read my post earlier on this page.

Oh, I see. It seems I missed a few posts.

MAP04: Andromeda Sun
100% kills, 2/3 secrets

Definitely the weakest map so far, though apparently it's an older map so maybe that's why. At the heart of it, it's basically spaghetti mapping (singular big rooms connected by thin hallways) writ large, both aspects I don't like. The large rooms mean that monsters are either useless (anything that throws a fireball) or frustrating (hitscanners hitting you from across the map) especially given the lack of armor. Aside from the teleport ambushes on the red key and soulsphere, there doesn't seem to be much thought in the placement of enemies, rather it all seems to be a "eh, I might as well put a cacodemon here, and a few imps here, and a lost soul here..." The lone cacodemons in low-ceiling areas are especially dumb, might as well just be hell knights.

The puzzles are a little awkward too, I figured out the red key one quickly enough, but didn't give any thought to the one behind the red door, just hit all the buttons ("I can't help it, I'm a born lever puller!") Aesthetics-wise, it starts out well, but kinda turns into a bit of a mess as the textures start varying wildly from place to place... there's some dilapidated buildings, then metal, then the rock textures change, then a marble temple, etc... and the mixing of red and blue just looks really bad. The blue key "fountain" is just weird, and the red key room is a cacophony of colors.

Been a hectic start to the month for me, but here I am again, ready to accost all who'll listen (and surely some unfortunates who'll try not to) with my tawdry opinions about Doom maps; I've also got some FDAs this time (which all use beta D2 until further notice), for whatever they're worth. I found the first NOVA to contain an above-average degree of enjoyment for being a 'newbie' project (esp. in its latter half), so my outlook for NOVA II is pretty positive. Without further ado, then, let's get to it:

Map 01 -- Panic Station - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets - FDA
Right, it was remarked by someone early on that this doesn't seem like it's a Cannonball map, and in comparison to the most well-known parts of his body of work (e.g. ConCERNed and Thy Flesh Turned Into a Draft Excluder) I can certainly see how someone might come to that conclusion; the fairly airy spatial sense is definitely OG Doom Cannonball, the layout and pacing perhaps not quite so much, fielding almost entirely incidental and almost wholly unstructured room-clearing combat, save for the little revenant blockade at the end. To those in doubt, it probably makes more sense if you consider that the map actually grew out of a kernel created by a different mapper, and I was also reminded of some of the newer bits in Cannonball's recent Hadron episode (a remake/remastering of CBSpeed/E1 of ConCERNed) in terms of the way paths through/between rooms are laid out. Perhaps this sort of thing is not liable to be first on one's mind when thinking of Cannonball's mapping, but it's a good thing, really--shows he can work well with more than one general pitch in gameplay, which can only be a feather in the cap of a so-called 'newbie' mapper. ;)

So, yes, I think it plays fine, I've no real complaints. It's unthreatening and only fields one real surprise (that being the ambushing pinkies/souls near the aforementioned revenant blockade, who make you move around and just might get you to Good at Doom (TM) yourself with the RL if you get too cocky), with very direct monster placement and a surprisingly low degree of monster mobility given the open layout (probably because so much of the traversal happens around sharp corners and via lifts/drops), but its relative spaciousness and high degree of interconnectivity mean that a player can aggressively blaze through it in any number of different ways, which keeps anything from feeling too static. Lots of visual interconnectivity as well via various windows, ports, overlooks and such, so a more methodically-inclined player should have a pretty good run at thoroughly clearing out the infestation from any number of superior firing positions. Secrets were satisfying as well (is the TNT logo in one of them a reference to a specific map or just to Evilution in general?), with the RL probably being the trickiest--I more or less stumbled across it via dumb luck early on, but if you stop and look at the environment you get a clever inductive clue as to the approximate location of its entrance if you happen to notice that darkened opening up on the cliffside as you first make your way through the little canyon towards the station. If I had to carp about something I reckon I'd personally like for the berserk pack not to be so deep in (harder to get much screentime with it that way unless you know the map and are willing to soak a lot of incidental damage en route in order to use it), but that's a very minor complaint, I really don't think the gameplay is in need of any real change.

From an aesthetic standpoint, if I wanted to be nitpicky I might say the texture scheme comes off as just a mite noisy between all the different types of masonry and paneling and lights and computery stuff used in close proximity (the planetary readouts set into the Plutonia brick wall in the eastern computer station and the brushed silver facade of the central yard's bounding wall being the most noticeably odd), but again, this is a rather minor complaint, since the overall grey/earth-tone color scheme is pretty coherent, and I do like the lush blue-velvet highlights here and there. The neutral-dim lighting probably helps it out quite a bit, as well (and matches the brooding overcast sky outside), smooths over any real visual clashes fairly well (whereas the kind of neutral-bright scheme I so often bitch and moan about would only call them to attention). Like the music selection as well, a good choice for the look and feel of the level.

Map 02 -- Rocky Rooftops - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets - FDA
I don't recall playing any maps by Pinchy before, so I've no preconceptions or the like to wrestle with here.

Kind of cute that the map opens with something of a 'my first serious map' trope in the form of a rather impractical helipad that would have any OSHA assessor worth his/her salt screaming like a banshee, but as you move on into the main event you'll see that from a structural/flow standpoint it's quite a bit more mature, essentially a tiny sandbox (so no 'spaghetti syndrome') that emphasizes traversal along the vertical axis nearly as much as along flat planes. In progression terms its apparent openness is somewhat of an illusion--buildings have to be visited in a set order, and though they are technically open to the rest of the map their universally high, thin walls mean that they play more or less like a standard room-corridor-room sequence--but don't let anyone ever tell you that illusions don't count for anything, as they certainly do; seeing essentially the whole map from the first overlook is a nice treat that compensates somewhat for the rather dry combat at the core of the experience. For being so compact it also integrates optional content very smoothly and naturally in the form of its two secrets; I particularly liked the soulsphere parkour bit, very playful.

There's not much to talk about in terms of gameplay; it's inoffensive but doesn't really have much flavor, and again the high walls and narrow/single entrances of the different buildings along with incidental obstacles to monster pathing in the terrain (e.g. the deep, narrow depressions in the ground in the central yard) mean that actual battles tend to play out in a very segmented way, with little in the way of crossfire or attrition interplay or anything like that between them, and there's apparently not much the player can do to really mix things up, either--seeing all of the undead soldiers and other miscreants facing away from me at the outset, I tried being a smartass and totally ignoring the very transparent first 'signal zombie' to see if I could get anything interesting to develop in so doing, but...no dice. The issue's not really that the map's easy, mind, it's just that the actual gunplay seems a bit stilted, especially vs. some of the snipers and other largely immobile monster-clusters--shotgunning/chaingunning them away feels a mite flat. Given the terrain and early mapslot, I don't think adding more monsters or having tougher monsters is really a good solution, so my humble suggestion is to put a rocket launcher and maybe a case of rockets or so in the map, perhaps in place of the secret chaingun, since you get that weapon later (or maybe the first shotgun could be swapped for a chaingun to preserve that aspect of progression). This lets you brutally multikill most of the big pockets (esp. the snipers, and maybe the last little trap if you save some ammo) in the blink of an eye, adding some totally optional flash/flair to the proceedings without really impacting the overall difficulty or pacing in any significant way.

About the progression, I didn't find it problematic or confusing myself, but for the sake of argument I can see why some folks might not like the placement of that first switch--being right next to a lift like it is it's only natural to think it's going to work said lift, and perhaps to think the map is broken or something when flipping it fails to do so. Not a gamebreaking issue (or shouldn't be for anyone with any modicum of patience/problem-solving ability, anyway), but for the sake of formality it might do better if it were to replace the little computer screen by the entrance of that same building or the like.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and as to the discussion on whether or not this map ought to switch slots with 'Panic Station', I'll just be patently unhelpful and say that I think either map could make a good case for being map 01. Panic Station is more lively from an action standpoint and so serves as a better calisthenic/aerobic warmup to get the juices flowing and get the player into the game, but Rocky Rooftops has a little bit more of an eccentric flavor, which can help to make a memorable first impression, especially if you consider how its opening sequence could be taken as kicking the game off on something of a cinematic note. In sum, I think that if the switch is made it's not going to hurt the overall mapset....and if it's not made, it's also not going to hurt the overall mapset.

And moving right along...

Map 03 -- Deep Water - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets - FDA
KevinHEZ is another mapper whose work I've had no prior experience with, though I have seen some pleasantly clean/classy screenshots from his more current projects in the WADs & Mods picture thread from time to time. This map is presumably some of his earliest output.

Despite the larger spatial expanse and somewhat longer runtime relative to the first two maps, the layout here is again very compact, or that is to say, it has little in the way of empty space (null space!?) between its different chambers, with different areas interlocking neatly. In the core of the map there is some visual interconnectivity used to create a sense of structural unity and thus a sense of place; despite the generally abstract architecture one does get the sense of being in some kind of largely subterranean industrial base, most pronounced via the starting room's trio of windows into the filtration sampling area, and the largely superfluous (which does not necessarily make something seem artificial or unbelievable, mind) high windows into the large servo room to the west. This sense of unity breaks down the farther you go from that core kernel of the layout, though, where sealed one-off rooms jutting off of hallways that exist purely out of the need to have something to facilitate travel around the map begin to predominate. As such, despite having a design that appears somewhat integrated if you look at it on the overhead map, actual moment-to-moment play is definitely marked by a sense of a sterile hubspoke + room/corridor/room slog, where the aspects of optionality/exploration seem tacked-on rather than genuine (e.g. the rocket launcher room, that's very....underwhelming). In some places this could theoretically be addressed by knocking out bounding walls and having rooms/areas flow into each other with fewer inhibitions (e.g. it's not a stretch to imagine the ooze/armor secret cistern joined with the nearby red key room); in others the room-by-room layout could probably work okay with some monster placement changes.

Yes, monster placement! As is, the map certainly has a functional thing balance, but it's pretty light on exciting/interesting combat. The general issue here, IMO, is that there's too much of a slant towards basic fights against groups of mid-tier monsters, usually in areas where there's more than enough room to move to trivialize them as threats, meaning that their primary contribution to the gameplay is simply as a time-killer. Again, bearing in mind that it's still very early days in terms of the mapset's overall progression, I don't mean to suggest that it ought to be ruthlessly hard or anything like that; quite the contrary in fact. Many of the rooms/traps seem like they'd be snappier if they were staffed with healthy doses of weak monsters (former humans, sergeants, imps, demons, etc.) while allowing the mid-tier fellows to act as accents or highlight encounters rather than the main event; I do agree with others that the arch-vile is well-placed, for instance, and I liked the cheeky revenant tagteam trap at the end as well. Again, I think playing with the general flavor of the monster composition would amount to a more elegantly-paced map without greatly affecting the overall difficulty (although if hitscanners are to be the rule of the day some tweaking of the armor/health balance may be in order, naturally). As a random/specific aside, I also suggest teleporting in specter or two or something to keep the player from instantly backing out of one (not both!) of the identical closet-traps in the yellow key annex.

I was neither particularly wowed nor particularly put off by the aesthetics. There is a nice variation in scale between areas (particularly as regards ceiling heights) and some of the rooms have pleasing shapes, but I did notice the bits of anomalous micro-detailing that Magnusblitz (I think it was him anyway) mentioned that don't seem to quite jibe with the generally clean, chunky look of the map (striplights into the yellow key area, the rather ugly slime-fountain in the courtyard, etc.). I also didn't care for some of the texture selection, especially the prominence of the dirt/soil texture throughout. In some areas you can kinda argue it makes some sense (e.g. in the big servo room, which comes off as being dug out from under a nearby hill or the like), but I started frowning at it when it began to be used as a structural texture (e.g. the windows and braces in and around the courtyard). I also can't accuse the map of ignoring lighting, but some of its larger areas seemed like they'd come off better with more shadowing or a lower default light level, again the servo room is a pretty good example (especially since the servos themselves glow!). Granted, a lot of this last bit of rambling pertains to almost entirely subjective stuff, but I guess it's worth mentioning it anyway.

Left me a bit cold, this map.

Edit: Oh, again I forgot to comment, but I actually thought at first until reading other comments here that the one-time green armor thing was a bug, not a feature, which I guess tells you what I think of the idea as seen here. It's not big enough an issue to ruin the map or anything (hardly), I guess if it stays it's just one of those things we'll come to accept as an odd but largely ineffectual little eccentricity in time.

.....aaaand caught up.

(for now.)

Map 04 -- Andromeda Sun - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets - FDA
Quite like the BGM here, what's the source? Kudos if it's the work of a community member, it does have that ephemeral TNT vibe that some others have mentioned. I don't hesitate to say that it was my favorite thing about this map.

The rest of it just doesn't seem to work much at all, frankly, it's not hard to believe that this was a very early/embryonic effort by the author. It's a map at war with itself, and odd as it may sound to say I think I probably would have enjoyed it more if I'd played it on the "Hey, Not Too Rough" setting. It's clear as daylight that what Getsu Fune was shooting for here was a pensive, meandering affair intended to be more about contemplation than about shooting demons; the map hangs its hat almost entirely on establishing setting/mood, and it doesn't surprise me one bit to hear the author say that he'd hoped it would be given the map 01 slot, to help make a play on the narrative angle. Unfortunately, map 01 slot or no, it falls flat on its face because any sense of serenity it might've established is blotted out by very poor gameplay; it is so patently ineffective as an action piece that I found it impossible to will myself to sustain any real sense of immersion (doing so is always a cooperative effort between the player and the mapper on some level, after all--don't let anybody ever tell you it's the mapper's responsibility alone).

Initially I was going to call the action 'nonexistent', but it occurred to me that this is both inaccurate and probably ironically short-sighted, since this map is arguably more appealing with -nomonsters enabled than under any other circumstance. There are monsters scattered around the map, and you can kill them if you want (or if you compulsively insist, as in my case). A few of them are hitscanners, so you probably should shoot those guys, the rest don't really mean anything other than that you can't stand around indefinitely. And that, dear readers, is the rub--even though the combat aspect of the map is entirely ineffectual, and painfully dull to see through, you still kind of have to do it if you're really going to be comfortable in lingering around and staring at things, wondering what the buildings are, what the story of the area might be while listening to that cool music track, etc., which is the whole damn point of the map! The only way to not deal with the combat is to ignore it (or to hide in an empty part of the map I guess) and run through everything, which is much less dull moment-to-moment, but also a case of 'missing the forest for the trees', as it were. There are a couple of puzzle bits that make you stop and hang around in the setting for a bit, but these are either highly trivial (the tacky letter-marked switch choice in the haunted woodshed) or take place in a completely unscenic area closed off from the rest of the map (the color-matching switch puzzle in the haunted tin genny shed); the puzzles are pretty straightforward, in the demo I tried the 'wrong' switches too just to see what would happen, and was soundly punished by more totally unfulfilling combat. Ouch. I really get a sense of Doomy self-loathing from this, a map where action in the traditional sense has no place, yet one that insists on having it anyway, perhaps for the sake of 'normalcy.'

I firmly believe that Doom can be successful both when it emphasizes detailed/nuanced action and when it eschews that kind of play in favor of building atmosphere (you've all seen my persistently favorable assessment of sundry Russian stuffs in these DWMC threads, after all), but there' so little merit to the action aspect in this map that it drags down and despoils any atmosphere the setting and sparse visuals might have concocted. The elephant in the room here might be that there probably wasn't a way to thing-place the map that would've been much more sensible than what we see here, which begs the question of whether or not the whole thing should just be given up as stillborn. If it's kept, I'd recommend taking most of the monsters out of it (on all difficulty settings), and focusing on touching up the visuals and general presentation (which is NOT the same as insisting that it try to implement modern-style sector-laden detail--different lighting choices alone could go a long way), perhaps elaborating on the puzzles. No matter what is done with it it's the sort of thing that's always going to be highly divisive, I suspect, so best of luck to you lot with whatever tack you decide to take.

Other issues:
* There's some kind of sector fuckery going on around/beneath the stalactites in the small southeastern tunnel (visible in the demo). More or less functionally harmless, but a rather noticeable blemish from an aesthetic/immersion perspective.
* There are various HOM/bleeding errors amidst the shading on the ceiling above the rows of torches and such that line the descending passage towards the pool with the blue key 'spring.' Also a large HOM on the ground near the southernmost mouth of the darkened cave system; you can see it along the right if you walk straight north from the green gazebo.
* The horizon effect if you look out at the sea near the start point is very sloppily implemented. Never going to be perfect in Doom, of course, but there's definitely room for improvement here--as it is you can see that the 'sea' is an irregular polygon that doesn't actually meet with the bounding cliffs in a consistent way.
* As others have mentioned, getting the berserk pack's secret to officially register is more than a little sketchy.

Edit: Woah, apparently I was very nearly killed SEVERAL times in this map (2% health at one point!). I had no idea....guess that tells you how engaging I found the janitorial work, looks like I just went on autopilot there for a while (and that my autopilot module is apparently garbage...).

*Video coming in a few hours, Youtube is being crap right now*

Things seem to get back on track with this map from Cyberdemon531, it's a very old school feeling wad that I would expect to fit right in with Evilution or Memento Mori. This is the first non joke map I've played from cyberdemon & I'm almost tempted to see some of his other maps. I only have one thing to complain about, a Baron is not a suitable replacement for an Arch-Vile, on the lower difficulty settings, in the Berserk secret near the start. Make it a Revenant or anything that's not a baron. Other than that great map.

MAP05: Broken Outpost by Cyberdemon531

The MM1 is strong with this one, not that it should surprise anybody. Anyway, this is a very well-made map, be it the architecture, the lighting, or the gameplay flow. I wasn't sure what to expect from a spastic speedrun freak trained on GZDoom, but I guess I will doubt the heretic no more. Although the encounters are broken in chunks (agin, very Memento Mori), every single one works, and I think that Superchage/Archvile secret deserves special mention for excellent enemy placement. Speaking generally, Cyberdemon seems to know how to use Archviles and Pain Elementals to maximum effect.

Of course, out of all those skirmishes, the one that stands out the most is the final one after grabbing the yellow key, in which the entire map slowly awakes into pure, unrestrained chaos. I found three more secrets: the Plasma Gun, the automap and the Berserk. In spite of which, it took me quite a few tries to get it right, and even then I just rushed to the exit... although I suppose that's what Cyb himself would do in most cases. Makes me think this map could be a very interesting one to try and UV-Max.

I'm not playing this month due to other commitments, but I am watching Demon's FDAs. Though clearly some "newbie" mappers are not quite as newbie as others, there's been some interesting innovation - often a sign of someone who's still in the experimental phase of mapping. It doesn't always work of course (but then, neither did all of my experiments, many years ago!), but it does mean a broad variety of levels.

MAP04 Andromeda Sun:

Interesting map and even bigger than the last map lol. I thought it was good. For some reason it took me a while to figure out how to get into the marble gazebo area. The rest of the map was pretty easy in example: cacodemons and a Pain Elemental are the biggest threats here. (Besides the Chaingunners hitting you in open space.) This map was fun but confusing at times I like the abstract blood/water blue key fountain thing that was cool I don't know how I did it on my first run through, but I managed to figure out the red key puzzle. And the berserk secret was weird I got it at the beginning of the map but I had to go back and tag it because it didn't tag before. Overall this map is a breather from MAP03 it never was annoying so yeah fun map.

MAP05: Broken Outpost

Could this map be any more different from the previous one if it tried?

On the heels of MAP04's haunting atmosphere and relatively sedate exploration of a vast and barren wilderness, the player is now presented with a level that in layout, gameplay, music, and visuals just screams "evil funhouse." There isn't much of a sense that you're exploring a real and functional place, but what this level serves up in generous helpings is fun. Individual encounters are well-designed and while the pacing can be a bit stop-start, I found that I quickly settled into the rhythm of "do the thing, all Hell breaks loose, emerge triumphant and see the next thing to do." The map plays fair with its secrets, they've all got visual and/or map cues though you kind of have to take a second look at some places after dealing with the latest batch of monsters before you have the luxury of looking for those clues.

So, yeah, good times were had!