The DWmegawad Club plays: NOVA II

MAP05 Broken Outpost:

Holy shit! this map is a huge step up in difficulty. At first glance, it isn't too bad but that red key ambush was unexpectedly brutal. I actually had to resort to my fists on one of the mancubi because the ammo is very tight on this map (At the beginning) and no one in the previous maps were generous enough to give a backpack >=(. Luckily for me there is a berserk secret with an unnecessary Arch-vile in it so punching out the mancubus wasn't too hard. The Yellow key encounter was also ridiculous so many enemies including 4 arachnos, 2 PEs, 4 Cacos, and an archy (along with a handful of hitscanners). This map is freaking hard but I liked it, and the music fit the style as well. This map also gives a plasma but I'm unsure how you trigger the floor being lowered to reveal it (Near the start). Great map, best so far.

MAP05 - "Broken Outpost" by Cyberdemon531

I've played this map before, but forgot all details, including positions of secrets and traps, so it was almost like if I've played it for the first time again. Good difficulty, which also continually increases as the map progresses. Relatively well done usage of monsters, particularly Arachnotrons, Pain Elementals, Archviles and Revenants. I'm indifferent about usage of Barons of High Health, but it wasn't too bad either. I like the way how you get trapped after grabbing the red key and forced to take a new medium-long route to unlock your way back. I wonder if the occasional curving details (like the overhangs in the main yard) were dobu gabu maru's suggestion or even personal addition to the map. I also liked this map's secrets, found all 5. Overally, good.

MAP05 Broken Outpost

the first map in the set that I didn't really like. There's a lot of good combat here, but the layout and design are quite odd. I couldn't really find myself comfortable when playing this one. it goes from outside to base and then there's this weird marble section too. now THIS is what I call a mishmash.

MAP05 - "Broken Outpost" by Cyberdemon531

Good map this, very action orientated with lots to kill and a design that is chaotic but held together by some artistic flourishes that give a sense of method behind the madness (or vice versa). Its as easy or difficult as you want it to be I guess, I found that playing carefully and hugging corners could get you through without too much trouble, as well as some quick reactions for the traps. The archvile in the secret near the start gave me a surprise, I forgot it was in there, and playing pistol start meant taking it on with a shotgun. The berserk reward didn't seem worth the trouble, but it amused me anyway. The courtyard with its surreal wavy ceiling is quite striking. Yeah I like this map, lots of messy fun.

MAP05 - Broken Outpost

Kills: 100% | Items: 91% | Secrets: 100 %

A very good map with a strong emphasis on the action. It's really fun to play, and the Red key trap is well staged. I wish to have found the Plasma Gun before the last big horde of monsters.

Map 5 video, my thoughts on the map are about 10 posts back.

MAP05: Out of all the maps I fiddled with, this one definitely changed the most from its original inception (which you can download here if you’re curious—it needs the TNT texture pack IIRC). I made a post in the NOVA II thread detailing some changes I made and why I did so, hoping that it would at least get some people to think about mapping a little differently. The most important change was the lighting IMO, as it helped to separate the outdoor areas from the undergound green temple section and added some nice visual flourishes here and there. Beyond that I heavily rebalanced ammo, did some cutsey detail in the ceiling (kudos to Scifista for noticing), changed textures in a couple spots and restructured fights to make them more energetic. The AVs are also my implementation—in almost all of the maps I worked on I added additional AVs (03, 05, 09, & 19)—and my ultimate goal for the map was to simply make it more engaging despite being a linear affair. It's still grindy in a lot of spots but I'm at least glad people are having fun with Cyberdemon531's core design.

Thats interesting to know you gave that map a makeover, now it almost seems obvious that there were 2 hands involved. It gives it a schizophrenic quality.

MAP05: Broken Outpost
100% kills, 5/5 secrets

After the vast emptiness of last map, this one is a more typical level, filled to the brim with hellspawn. It makes for much more bloody (and fun) going. Combat is pretty well-thought out for the most part... while the monsters can kick your ass, there's also usually plenty of health/ammo to fill up on afterwards, meaning that the player just needs to survive (which I appreciate). The one exception to this is the ending, which left me with only a few bullets and shells, so taking out the final cacos/PEs going back to the yellow door was a bit tough.

The map does make a bit more sense after reading dobu's comments about his changes to it - the heavy amount of ceiling detail and lighting detail do stand out, almost too much, as it starts to edge into the "overdetailed" territory like MAP03 did. There's also quite the cacophony of textures, as we go from metal and wood to techbase to green marble (and the middle tower holding the yellow key sticks out a bit of a sore thumb, in addition to having a texture misalignment). There's also the dick move of placing an Arch-Vile in a secret at the start of the map when the player has limited supplies, also seems very dobu.

I will say that knowing how much dobu had a hand in this map makes it difficult to really say what Cyberdemon531 contributed... the parts that stand out to me seem very dobu, without playing the original it's hard to say what this map would've been like without his work. While it's probably a good idea from a "help improve mapmakers" perspective, from the reviewer perspective I find it a bit annoying, actually. Pretty good map though in the end, the positives (such as the design of the red key trap/area) outweigh the negatives (visual schizophrenia).

Magnusblitz said:

While it's probably a good idea from a "help improve mapmakers" perspective, from the reviewer perspective I find it a bit annoying, actually.

I do agree it makes things more complicated than it should be, though this is the only map I touched up visually. I felt bad for having gut many of Cyberdemon531's choices, but I tried to keep the same layout, visual themes, and monster composition in order to preserve his original intentions. I actually had a lot of internal debate whether to slap my name on the end of the credits but decided against it as it I did more "adjusting" than "collaborating" here.

And yeah, the AV in the berserk closet is very much my style—the original version had 6 stimpacks, blue armor, and not a single enemy guarding it :P

ZDoom - HMP - Pistol Starts

MAP05: Broken Outpost



An early chaingun and green armour. I think I'm going to like this map.



Quite a mixed bag of textures in this level, but it works due to a combination of good lighting, colour choice, and surreal design.

Infact, the visuals, music and gameplay are all compelling. Best map so far.

MAP05 - Broken Outpost

101/95/100

This is a good one. I like the flow of the map, and gameplay is very nice. Difficulty is considerably higher than previous maps, but it's made a lot easier with the secrets, which is my only complain: the Computer Map gives away every secret, it should be harder to find. But really, I like it.

9 deaths.

Demos for 04-06.

Map04: Andromeda Sun by Getsu Fune

Not really my cup of tea or that fun to max either for that matter. Getsu clearly goes for the atmosphere here and in terms of architecture and the "feel" of the map he does succeed decently well. It really did feel like a sombre journey through a desolate and mysterious landscape when I first played this. Gameplay is just a little too mild and straightforward for my tastes, for casual playing and especially for UV-maxing. There is very little challenge here even though health is supplied pretty sparsely so playing becomes a bit boring pretty fast. Obvious gameplay standouts are the two notable ambushes at the RK and in the Soulspher circle. Both are really easy when it comes to traps but at least they offer something else than the standard action in this map. At least nearly all monsters are small fry so they're quickly dealt with and you can keep your feet moving.

Not sure if there's much you can do about the map to make it a more enjoyable experience for maxing as it's not really designed for that kind of thing. It is what it is.

Map05: Broken Outpost by Cyberdemon531 (featuring dobu gabu maru)

This is pretty much the polar opposite of map04 on the other hand. Super fun to play fast and pretty damn great for maxing. The map flows along really nicely and there aren't really any slower moments to speak of. The chaos that is unleashed after the YK pickup is beautiful and the absolute highlight of the map combat-wise, I really liked the AV and PE placement there as well as the hitscanner hordes among the barrels down below. The logical route for maxing means skipping the hitscanners early and dealing with them only after the YK pickup which leads to even more chaos. Ammo balance in regards to rockets (and cells too actually) is very good in my opinion since you can't just spam RL in YK battle but rather try to make most of the twenty or so you're given. Shells can be a little tight depending on how much you pick up before descending to the crypts where the RK is located but later they are abundant it seemed.

Secrets here were well designed and the rewards felt like actual rewards too. Apart from the zerk secret near the start which is a bit of a dick move instead of an actual useful secret. I deal with it only at the very end of my demo when I have the PG so it's not an issue by any means but unsuspecting players may press the suspicious looking wall texture when they have nothing but a SG and a CG... But it seems like the sole purpose of said secret is to be a dick move and tt lead to an amusing duel in my first playthrough so I guess I can live with it. The other, non-secret, zerk pretty clearly serves as a glorified pile of medkits but I suppose the idea is to lure a wounded player in the midst of the big battle into the room and corner him/her in there with the HK. Overall a really good map and suits nicely for UV-maxing. Really felt like a map where a good strategy, efficient ammo use and just general skillful playing are all necessary for recording a truly good UV-max.

Map06: Water Maim by AD_79

Pretty short and sweet this, and despite having only 50ish enemies it's not a total cakewalk of a map. A bit Scythe-esque in terms of the compact layout and low monster count and this also had some speedmap-vibe in it as well, for some reason. Combat is incidental with a steady flow of rather unsurprising ambushes. The only one that really caught me by surpise initially was the Rev-HK sandwich just before the red door. Weapon progression seems fine and I suspect a way more aggressive strategy than what I had would be beneficial for faster UV-maxes. Secrets are mostly of useless here apart from the stash of rockets near the BK. The slow rising Manc near that secret is kind of goofy and I'd rather have him tele there or something. Struggling to find more to say about this really... It's a good albeit a very short map with no major flaws or things that really need improvement.

MAP06 - Water Maim

Kills: 100% | Items: 100% | Secrets: 100 %

Nice and short. Yes, it reminds a bit of Scythe. The monster count is pretty low but the monsters are used very well. Interesting the blue armor secret, I thought to use it as a safe spot but the ravenant "trapped" me while the Archvile started to resurrect some dead fellows.

Map 05 -- Broken Outpost - 101% Kills / 100% Secrets - FDA
Again an author whose other work I'm unfamiliar with, although if it's true what I hear that he mostly makes jokeWADs that's probably likely to stay that way, since I've very little interest in that particular genre of PWADs.

Anyway, there's something decidedly oldschool about this one. The inclusion of another Klem piece in the soundtrack helps with this impression, I'm sure, but in vintage it struck me as being akin to something just a little bit more recent than the Memento Mori WADs, maybe '99/00 or so. It's the combination of a very eclectic texture theme and generally broadstroke architecture (with pleasantly little reliance on consistent orthogonality, I must say!) with some more fiddly minute detail stuff here and there, particularly the multi-layered flutings on the ceilings in a number of places (with matching 1:1 shadowcasting on the floors, more often than not). In fact, that's probably where I got my impression about the level's visual vintage from, the green marble room at the foot of the elbowed staircase near the red door starkly reminded me of something from one of the reject packs from the old 10 Sectors event. In all, I'd say there's a certain lack of overall aesthetic/thematic coherency that goes a bit beyond the level of simple old-fashioned abstractness--perhaps an effect ultimately eliding from what sounds like it's essentially a dual authorship--but it's not something I'd call a proper eyesore, nor would I call it an aesthetically boring map, as it does have some cool shapes as aforesaid (really like the entrance hall and main yard), and some decent scenery here and there.

More importantly, though, I felt it was fun to play. In a way it reminded me of the FuzzyFireball maps from the original NOVA, or perhaps like a more polished version of one of the better Gene Bird efforts from the early CChests (or his Blind Alley series, I guess), in that while its thing placement and battle setups are hardly the most elegant or nuanced in the world--pretty much just flat-out grab-bag monster-spam in a couple of places--it hits that bloody sweet spot of long sequences of unending monster death that Doom does so well, a confluence of stiff opposition with robust player armament in suitably articulate environments. Not what I'd call a 'hard' map, really, but it's the sort of thing that will definitely bully around the easily cowed with its persistent use of close-range ambushes by a motley assortment of hellspawn that spill out of estate-sized closets, and also its tendency to put arch-viles in 'unfair' places (I know that's your doing, Dobu) to keep the player off balance. It all comes to a nice head with the final ambush in the main yard, with crap just spilling out of all of the walls along the walkway, making for quite the massacre, while more closets open en route back to the exit kiosk to stimy those who get intimidated and try to take the coward's way out, generally a more interesting way of doing things than simply locking the player into the main arena, I feel.

I don't think this one really needs a whole lot changed, though I would recommend the removal of the squat red pillar-props flanking the mouth of the soulsphere/yellow card's tower in the main yard--they are an almost wholly inconsequential bit of detail that can easily block player movement in nasty ways during one of the map's most clutch situations. As for bugs/issues, it seems that monsters have a very high tendency to get stuck on the doortrack of the latch separating the main yard from the brown entrance hall (e.g. the part with the arch-vile in the berserk secret), likely worth addressing.

dobu gabu maru said:

I do agree it makes things more complicated than it should be, though this is the only map I touched up visually. I felt bad for having gut many of Cyberdemon531's choices, but I tried to keep the same layout, visual themes, and monster composition in order to preserve his original intentions. I actually had a lot of internal debate whether to slap my name on the end of the credits but decided against it as it I did more "adjusting" than "collaborating" here.

And yeah, the AV in the berserk closet is very much my style—the original version had 6 stimpacks, blue armor, and not a single enemy guarding it :P

I took a whirl through the original you linked, and it's definitely the same layout, I'd say you just added detailing, lighting and tweaked some of the monster encounters, as well as removing one sloppily-designed secret (the invuln sphere). The original marble wall area looks much worse, you definitely did a good job updating that spot (if anything, in the original map that section feels like an unfinished rough draft). And this was a good map to pick as an example to make about lighting, the original one is so flat there were times I started wondering if I had picked up a pair of lite-amp goggles without realizing it!

Map 06 -- Water Maim - 105% Kills / 100% Secrets - FDA
Alright, so the first thing about this map that struck me was the acute sense of déjà vu I felt while playing through, I was positive it was something I had seen in some form somewhere before. After finishing, I sat around for a few minutes trying to recall where that might've been, and eventually it dawned on me that much of the map seems to be built on the frame of map 03 of D2TWiD, by esselfortium (as imitating American McGee). I suppose that probably should've been obvious given the way the two maps are titled, but cut me some slack--apart from only having approximately 54% of a functioning brain, I'd also only played the D2TWiD map once before at the time. The similarity is most pronounced earlier on, with some skirmishes and traps being largely analogous in form to the original map (albeit with some different monster selection), i.e. the first keycard reveal, and bleeds away somewhat towards the end, where the action feels quite a bit different despite the shared architecture. In a way, this general approach makes 'Water Maim' seem like far and away the most old-fashioned map of the set up to this point, hearkening back to a much earlier time in the history of PWADing, when building one's own custom maps using the skeleton of an IWAD map (the irony is not lost on me here) as a base was a far more common practice than it has been since the turn of the millennium.

It's a snappy play that uses intelligent placement of small numbers of monsters of all shapes and sizes to create a series of micro-skirmishes. Success is largely reflexive; the fights are very simple (perhaps barring a stinger or two) and quickly/easily handled, but few will let you simply stand around and shoot, you'll have to move around a bit. The first arch-vile and the pincer trap near the red door were the best parts, whereas the stuff behind the red door felt a little more flat, since monsters in there were more entrenched/static on the whole (e.g. the revenant and manc who slow-rise out of little pits in the elevated walkway, I agree that looks pretty silly). I feel like re-using the same pincer trap from the red door for the exit battle was perhaps too predictable; if it's going to be the same deployment method I might suggest adding an additional revenant (maybe even two) for extra spice. Shouldn't skew the balance too much, the player should be well-equipped to deal with them by that point. Similarly, in the FDA, you can see me very evidently worrying about a potential trap on the SSG bridge just beyond the red door....I say make it happen, shouldn't be too much trouble since the closet I was concerned about turns out to open at a later time anyway. ;)

Aesthetically serviceable, being built on the attractive green/tan masonry texture scheme that defined the D2TWiD map, with some additions. I reckon some of the additions are a mite garish, though....looking at this I was reminded of some of the earlier maps of Unholy Realms, which tended to be pockmarked in places by excessive color mixing for the sake of it, particularly where different colors of neon/fluorescent lights are concerned. The tetra-color light scheme in this map doesn't sit so well with its neat, practical architecture, I'd suggest picking one main color for the lights, probably green or yellow, and sticking mostly to that. I didn't care for the random ooze-crucifix cut into the wall near the first keycard, either--looked like it was there not so much because it really fit but because the author was worried the wall would look too bare otherwise--but I suppose that's a matter of taste. Bonus points for the BGM selection, I'm very fond of that track.

Here is one of ADs earlier maps from back when he mostly remade other peoples stuff, though I can't really fault him for that I used to do the exact same thing when I first stated mapping, though AD is much better at it than I was. Say Dobu if you could just stop linking to the reviews of the Monochrome Mapping Project in the OP & pretend it never existed that'd be great :P This map is a remake of D2TWID Map 3 by Esselfortium, it has a very similar layout, structures, & even some secrets, the biggest difference between the 2 maps are the monsters, so I give it a 0/10 still doesn't look like a McGee map. Just kidding, I did like this map quite a bit, good use of windows & height variation provide for some fun encounters, plus the map looks pretty good.

I'm going to leave a bit of commentary on my maps (I know it's not the 6th for me yet but people are getting to it so whatever).

MAP06

This is definitely an older creation of mine, originally made in November 2014 for my personal project. Back then, I seemed to think that "take an existing map and basically make my own version of it" was an okay map making method. The idea was "Water Main but harder/different" and I suppose in that aspect I somewhat succeeded? Looking back at it, I don't really like this map much. I should have gone for a more original layout instead of basically copying an existing map. The only reason I submitted it was that at the time, I was having issues creating an original map for the Nova II project. So I decided to be lazy, slightly modified the map and posted it in the thread. I was going to make something to take its place, but once again, laziness won out and it remained. Ah well. At least my other submissions are actually decent :P

MAP06 Water Maim

is it a typo or is it really supposed to be maim and not main?

okay map. the one thing I'm not a fan of is single shotgun action against mancubi and hell knights for much of the first half. but the map is okay with some alright traps.

ZDoom - HMP - Pistol Starts

MAP06 - Water Maim

This is the first map where I took a few deaths, but it's short and sweet enough that I didn't mind restarting. It's got a tight layout that reuses previous areas and is visually pleasing. Reminded me a little of some the D2TWID maps. (Having read others' commentaries, I see why now.)

It's not the sort of map that would stand out in a crowd, there's no big concept here, but it plays really nicely.

Getsu Fune said:

MAP06 Water Maim

is it a typo or is it really supposed to be maim and not main?

It's not a typo.

MAP06: Water Maim by AD_79

As said in one of my Requiem posts, I quite like the "ruins hosting secret installations" theme. This is a short and punchy one, among the shortest maps yet in fact. Monster placement is just cruel enough to keep the excitement flowing, but no more. I guess that's fine by me. Not much else to say about this one.

In other news, that intermission text is so poorly written it's cringe-worthy. Is it from Joe-Ilya ? Regardless, I'm looking forward to playing my first Joe map tomorrow, although considering that it's his most recent work, and that Dobu revised it no doubt, I suppose my experience will be rather different from most people's introduction to his work.

MAP06 - "Water Maim" by AD_79

First thought: What a shameless rip...!

Second thought: Okay, this is what D2TWID MAP03 would be like if it wasn't restricted by that rule about having to imitate an idSoftware mapper's style. For that, it's very well done. AD_79 knows how to make good visuals, short and sweet gameplay, and polish it to perfection. I've enjoyed playing through - but still, somehow not as much as I normally do. In addition, I forgot saving during the map, died near the exit and I'll have to replay it - I didn't feel like doing it yet, probably because the layout is already too well known to me that replaying it doesn't excite me. This is not a complaint about the map, it only says something about myself, if anything.

MAP06: Water Maim

This one feels polished and professional; I don't know about the comparisons to Scythe precisely, but this is definitely the sort of thing that could have been slotted into episode 3 of Scythe 2 without making me blink. It's compact and efficient in its use of monsters. One-way doors are used in a few places to make sure the player can't door-camp and has to engage the hellspawn on their own terms. I think the western room is the strongest part of the map; the eastern room feels a bit too cluttered for the multi-level action hinted at by its architecture to really take place. Definitely appreciated the backpack toward the start of the level, too.

EDIT: Apparently I got west and east reversed. Fixed!

Budoka said:

I'm looking forward to playing my first Joe map tomorrow, although considering that it's his most recent work, and that Dobu revised it no doubt,

Nope, joe-ilya's map has been untouched by my hands (though I did prompt him to change a couple things). I only really got down and dirty with seriously editing one more map in the set, which I'm eagerly awaiting the reviews of.

MAP06: I’d argue that out of all the “new” mappers, AD has perhaps the most palatable mapping style. His maps are energetic and fun, having a brilliant flow with engaging traps. I’d argue some of his maps need to be a tad longer, but they work fine as quick intermissions—especially this one. Good interconnectivity and plenty of bite-sized action before we get into some of the more sprawling atmospheric maps in E1.

I probably should mention that since this is the second time I'm plowing through a beta, I'd be noting whether or not the map in question played well for me the second time around. and also, some ratings!

MAP01: 4/5 still a fun map.
MAP02: 4/5 still a fun map.
MAP03: 5/5 very fun map still.
MAP04: 2/5 yeah it sux, but reading the other's comments makes me wonder if people are deliberately breaking the map just to screw with me. the puzzles really aren't that difficult I assure you. for some reason, playing it twice made it better.
MAP05: 2/5 good gameplay but shit design. still very uncomfortable though.
MAP06: 3/5 still average at best.

Map05 : Broken Outpost by Cyberdemon531
Played on HNTR, HMP, and UV, 100% kills and secrets on each.
Average time: 13 to 14 minutes
Deaths: quite a few

Ouch! This map has some nasty surprises, the least not being the red key trap with the Pain Elementals.

I actually had a very easy time with the Archie in the Berserk secret at the beginning of the map. Even with just shotgun and chaingun, I had plenty of room to move in and out of his sight with the door to the first room. He was so busy resurrecting sergeants, that I had plenty of time to take him down. Plus, I had extra shells to pick up, so it was really a bonus.

A fun map, though I don't know how possible it would be without the secrets. Places like the aforementioned red key area are full of tough monsters, including barons, Mancubuses, Revs, and let's not forget the Pain Elementals. This map tends to have a mean streak to it, and I'm sure without the aid of the soulspheres or berserk early on, it would be far more difficult.

Map06 : Water Maim by AD_79
Played on HNTR, HMP, and UV, 100% kills and secrets on each
Average time: 8 minutes
Deaths: A few

Like the map before it, Water Maim has a bit of a mean streak if you don't take it carefully. Mainly this goes for the very beginning, where there are two Mancubuses, one low, and one high, that take some dexterity to get around. Eventually, I was able to obtain the backpack secret without being killed by the lower Mancubi, which was definitely helpful.

I died a few times to the UV only Vile in the yellow key room. I do like how on UV, the megaarmor is replaced with a single armor bonus. I was going to say it was a bit odd (though nice) of AD to provide both the blue armor and five basic armor pickups, but seeing that on hard, all there is there are basic pickups, it makes a little more sense.

Visually, these two maps are nice. I find Broken Outpost to be a little more interesting and varied. Then again, it is the longer of the two maps. My opinion: Map 5 is good, and Map 6 is okay, perhaps not the strongest of the set, but still playable.

Budoka said:

In other news, that intermission text is so poorly written it's cringe-worthy. Is it from Joe-Ilya ?

Actually, I wrote it. :p

I had a heck of a time trying to come up with something that fit the spirit. My thought was to sort of imitate the style of the original Doom and Doom 2 intermission texts, which had a sense of cheese to them.

Admittedly, the text I wrote has too much cheese. I'll definitely revise it and make it less silly for the final release.

Oh hey, you know what? This looks like fun, can I join in?