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thief666

Hi resolution doom sprites

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Hi I decided to post here because I made all monster sprites in 2x resolution. I dont know hjow to integrate it inot wad and how to scale them so they are not 2 times bigger. They are not perfect but look much better than orginal. I dont know how to inster image to show expamples.

if you want to see i posted it also here, with sample images:
http://forums.yaa.dk/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=364&sid=68dff4f436ca6d4d19667f4458b5d3db

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You ran the images through rotsprite, I assume?

I'm sorry but it takes a bit more than that for High res doom sprites.

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I am a BIG doom fan. There is a project hi re doom sprites, going for years and not progressing at all i am afraid.

I decided to try i used SpriteBomb (gives much better results than rotsprite) then I fine tuned everything in GIMP. I did ALL the monsters.

I know its not perfect, I showed two verions of baron of hell with unchanged head and head pasted form someones art.

I understand that you guys dont like it but didnt really expected such a FLAME. well....

I hope more people will have a look at this sprites and if they suck forget but if not maybe its worth trying them?
I mean they are just scaled, depixelized, smoothed original sprites?
not perfect but maybe better than originals?

Dont wanna claim anything, just as doom fan wanna play game and if i can slightly improve i want to do that.

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I don't really think they flamed you. I think Mithran actually gave a little constructive criticism which I agree with. I would undo that edit you did to the teeth and just let it look the way it did before that. I do hope for your sake that someone has an answer to your question. I have an answer but it would require that you make these for the Doomsday Engine.

One of the things about posting in a Doom community forum is that it is full of purists and changing something which does not actually add to the experience is usually met with a high dose of criticism. When I post something in here I have to be prepared to look through my ego to find the constructive criticism within the responses... of course my problem is that I don't really care what other people think because I spend all my time tooting my own horn so I guess I'm not the best person to give advice.

This looks like an incredibly daunting task you've created for yourself and doing your own edits could really take a long time so I would finish up-resing the sprites first before you move on to adding your own edits.

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We already had several failed attempts at making hi-res Doom sprites, and what led to their failure and their authors getting no apparent respect was that

  • Had no idea what they were doing
  • Thought that increasing the size in photoshop and applying a filter would be good enough. Let alone that they seldom did a good job.
  • Didn't realize that this way of "increasing" the resolution is no different that what OpenGL ports already do by using hardware acceleration, automatically, and without the need to use extra resources and memory.
  • Had no idea on how to package them for use with ANY actual source port/how the engine was supposed to work.
  • Since the only engines that can use hi-res AND true-colour sprites are OpenGL/hardware accelerated anyway, such projects are doubly useless (see OpenGL point above), since they already do their own smoothing which looks better than a fixed scaling.
  • Took no criticism correction and started acting butthurt until they left.
Try not to be like those guys, please.

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hey guys now, this are ANSWERS.

SpriteBomb uses some tricky vector scaling to resize sprites. Itn not just simply increasing size and blurring/antialiasing/otherfiltering.

I did some basic simulation (by filters) how original and vector-scaled sprites may look after openGL smoothing and it turned out that scaled sprites looks better. I am not sure thuogh if i simulated openGL smoothing properly and if that "better" is worth effort of uploading this sprites to doom.wad (I have NO IDEA how to do that).

If someone finds it worth doing/checking ill gladly send all sprites.

thanks.

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THere was an older thread where someone had proposed using a vector/spline based resizing too.

OK, that DID look different than what blurring or hardware-filtered textures looked like, but as to whether it was worth it, that's debatable. Please let me see if I can find the thread....if that project is still going on, you could perhaps join forces or at least reuse some of the material/methods.

thief666 said:

uploading this sprites to doom.wad (I have NO IDEA how to do that).


You will have to make a patch WAD file, and furthermore you will have to use one of the several conflicting and port-specific methods of defining hi-res sprites (some work only on prBoom, some only on ZDoom, and some only on hardware accelerated ports). In general, that may include writing as many sprite descriptions (e.g. how big the resized sprites are, how they are aligned etc.) for nearly each new sprite, depending on what format/method you will finally use. The most universal are probably using HIRES lumps, but even that ain't bullet-proof.

Also, if you want to use truecolor images in order not to be limited to Doom's 256 colors, you will effectively limit the scope of your effort to hardware accelerated ports no matter what. And at that point, there's no question that a full 3D model would be preferable in terms of detail, disk and memory space, and animation smoothness (compare e.g. Risen3D).

These are also important reasons why such projects usually die young: too much work involved, too hard to get right, and much better alternatives both result and effort-wise are available.

In any case, try NOT being like that mac53 guy and divert your energy to something that will receive more appreciation ;-)

Edit: sorry, I can't find that thread. I recall it was on another Doom-related forum (BTW, there are sprite resizing projects going at least as far back as 2001), but even if I found it, image links were broken. If I saw the images, I would immediately recognize them.

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thx Maes,

Now I see it will be more complicated, than I though

but still the most daunting part of hi res sprites project is actually editing sprites. since there is hundreds of them and each needs hours/days of work this would take YEARS.

There are people who think that 3D models dramatically change the feel of game and prefer sprites. That’s why we have Doom hi res sprites project going on and its actually completed for non-enemy sprites. Such hi res sprites are available for Zdoom so its definitely doable. Not everyone is enthusiastic about that maybe noone needs that any longer.

I am sure I don’t have skills to do all the things you’ve said to transfer this hi res sprites to wad, so I just wanted to communicate that I have such sprites. As I said If they suck just forget but if someone can confirm that they look better than original in real game and wants to take things further (even for testing pupropses) I can send them. That’s all I wanted to say.


PS.
I don’t necessarily expect warm welcome, but please give me a break Marnetmar, you just assumed what I used for sprites was rotasprite and then, somehow being sure that this assumption have to be right followed with “encouraging comments”. BEFORE asking how I did that BEFORE how this sprites compare to originals after openGL blending, BEFORE reading my comments in linked post. I couldn’t care less about such comment, but such approach sucks, simply said. And may hurt novelty and creativity here.

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Well, I do have a couple of answers for you.

First is that your sprites do look slightly better than the originals would through a source ports filters. BUT the difference might be too small for most source port users to consider using them. Also, as Maes mentioned, something else to consider is that the file size of this mod would be much larger than mods with 3d monsters with high res textures. It still might be worth it especially if you are having fun creating the sprites.

Second is that if you made these for the Doomsday Engine you wouldn't have to do anything except create a pk3 file for your sprites which i'm sure there are people who would help you once the time came around to finalize it. It is actually really simple and the engine sizes them to fit the exact ratio of the original sprites so you wouldn't need to specify the size of your sprites. (EDIT:) Actually you wouldn't even need to create a pk3 file. You could just create a folder with specific folder names and your sprites would work... although a pk3 would take up less space and make it easier to the user.

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I compared your work with the 4x high res resize option in GZDoom and the latter seems to keep more of the original detail. GLBoom-plus also has the hires resize option and other hardware accelerated ports probably do too. So I'm having a hard time finding a point to this project, since it'll only be usable with those ports anyway.

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thief666 said:

There are people who think that 3D models dramatically change the feel of game and prefer sprites.


Well, considering that some of the original sprites were, in fact, real 3D clay miniatures or even composite-material models before becoming sprites, that's a kind of chicken vs egg dilemma.

Rather than painstakingly resizing and manually retouching 8 rotations per sprite, it would be a much more worthwhile effort to e.g. make 3D models faithful to the original miniatures (where available), and be able to scale and rotate them at will to any angle and proportion, rather than doing a one-off job.

Even if you do manage to complete a 2x resizing of sprites manually, someday someone else may say that 32x or 64x is the way to do, and will have to start all over. Retexturing an existing model, on the other hand, is a different thing.

And if you still want 8-rotation sprites, you can still use the model to produce them effortlessly and export them as images of any scale you want, with as much -or less so- pixelation you want.

Compare e.g. how faithful to the original sprites a model can be and then compare it with the best result you would get from a reasonable amount of automated resizing/filtering/resampling/magic touch:



You want a sprite out of that? Rotate to desired position, set skeleton/limbs properly, rinse and repaet and hey presto, you have 8 rotations, and you can have both the advantage of -nearly infinitely- minute detail on the model, and preserving a pixely (but less so) look if that's what you want.

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hey,

O, I play Skulltag with BrutalDoom port and didn’t know that GZdoom has that 4x hi res sprite option if it looks better then there is no point indeed and I just wasted my time 

From what I was seeing so far is that just simple hardwre resizing and smoothing is inferior, because vector resizing actually ADDS details, predicted by vector algorithm and seems to be working reasonably well (sprites keep original look more or less)

I’ll have a look at it after work.

If there is any slight improvement though I will try to use it with doomsday if you say its not complicated. I can create folder with sprites but what should be folder name? sprites should keep original names?

Bottom line, thanks for feedback, Ill check all his things after work! But it seems that what I made is rather minor thing maybe not worth pursuing.

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Hey! My project has been referenced in a different thread. Success!

thief666 said:

If there is any slight improvement though I will try to use it with doomsday if you say its not complicated. I can create folder with sprites but what should be folder name? sprites should keep original names?


Yes, give the sprites the original names and place them in the "doomsday\data\jdoom\patches" folder. You are going to have to create the "patches" folder yourself but its as simple as that. You might need to use the latest beta version for this to work but i'm not sure.

Here is a more detailed explanation for you
http://dengine.net/dew/index.php?title=How_to_create_custom_sprites

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Maes said:

THere was an older thread where someone had proposed using a vector/spline based resizing too.

OK, that DID look different than what blurring or hardware-filtered textures looked like, but as to whether it was worth it, that's debatable. Please let me see if I can find the thread....if that project is still going on, you could perhaps join forces or at least reuse some of the material/methods.

I'd be interested in seeing the results if you do happen to find it. One of my long term plans for Doomsday is to author a "color-normal to spline contour" upscale algorithm that I've had at the back of my mind for a few years now (similar to this paper by Chia-Jung Hung, Chun-Kai Huang and Bing-Yu Che but simpler).

HQ2n et al are ok, but they tend to be designed for whole video frames (rather than discreet graphics) and consequently, they are optimised for speed. So long as a caching mechanism is in place we can afford much more complexity.

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