Newbie Question

What's up people? My name's Paladine and I'm new to these forums.

Recently, after seeing mods for games such as Half Life and Quake 2, I figured that it would be cool to try my hand at some level designing. But I knew that I wouldn't be making the next They Hunger on my first try, so I though that I'd start out by making levels and such for Doom II. (I snagged a copy of it at my local On-Cue store)

Anyway, I've downloaded a couple of editors and DeHacked, but discovered that the ones I downloaded wouldn't work with the version of Doom II I had. You see, its the Win' 95 version that I've got, the one that runs the program that allows you to select levels, skills setting, and other options beforehand.

To save me some time, I'd thought I'd ask if anyone here knew where I could get an editor (and a version of DeHacked, hopefully) that works with the Window's 95 version of Doom II?

As Deep would say, get DeepSea at
sbsoftware.com
or get Wadauthor but I don't remember the adress to download it. Just search on google and you'll find it.

Be sure to grab WinTex, too (availible at ftp://3darchives.in-span.net/pub/idgames/utils). It comes in handy.

Originally posted by Paladine
To save me some time, I'd thought I'd ask if anyone here knew where I could get an editor (and a version of DeHacked, hopefully) that works with the Window's 95 version of Doom II?

As a matter of fact, you should drop Doom95 completely if you want to edit for Doom. Get a source port such as Boom or PrBoom (I'm too lazy to link... check the source ports page here on Doomworld), and editing will be way easier. Less restrictions in the map editing itself, and also the possibility to load DeHackEd patches directly as configuration files (no need to rebuild the .exe...)

If for some inexplicable reason you really want to stick with Doom '95, I'm afraid that it's impossible to use .deh patches in it.

Originally posted by Paladine
What's up people? My name's Paladine and I'm new to these forums.

Hello, Paladine. Whazzup?

Recently, after seeing mods for games such as Half Life and Quake 2, I figured that it would be cool to try my hand at some level designing. But I knew that I wouldn't be making the next They Hunger on my first try, so I though that I'd start out by making levels and such for Doom II. (I snagged a copy of it at my local On-Cue store.)

You're luckier than I am. I can't find any version of Doom in any store where I live:(

Anyway, I've downloaded a couple of editors and DeHacked, but discovered that the ones I downloaded wouldn't work with the version of Doom II I had.

Hmm.....You need to update. The version you have is probably 1.666.

....it's the Win' 95 version that I've got, the one that runs the program that allows you to select levels, skills setting, and other options beforehand.

You mean Doom95? /me shudders

To save me some time, I'd thought I'd ask if anyone here knew where I could get an editor (and a version of DeHacked, hopefully) that works with the Window's 95 version of Doom II?

Try this one.

Ack, DoomBoy, try closing your bold tags next time.

How do you make your own doom level's?

You download a level editor and couple faqs and there you go.

The 1st time I made a level I took Wadauthor to do it because I think the command are more intuitive than DeepSea. I have Deepsea for a while and I still can't make something good. Anyway it's just an opinion, wadauthor is better to start when you never edited before.

Originally posted by Darkstalker
The 1st time I made a level I took Wadauthor to do it because I think the command are more intuitive than DeepSea. I have Deepsea for a while and I still can't make something good. Anyway it's just an opinion, wadauthor is better to start when you never edited before.

Well if you use EXACTLY the same tools (PREFABS - erroneously called sector editing<g>) then there is basically no difference at all for beginners. Arguably much easier since drag and drop merging works at the vertex level. IOW less manual splitting and dragging required (something that is definitely NOT intuitive). Just because you can also linedraw doesn't mean one HAS to:) Arguably DeePsea's prefabs are much more flexible since you can size and drag them BEFORE they are created.

I think the issue might be that there are more options, making it a bit overwhelming for some people. Nobody reads anything you know:) So in that sense WA is less intimidating.

IOW, there's very little in the computer world that's "intuitive". It's what one LEARNS to do. So if one learns "A" first then "A" is said to be intuitive. Countless examples exist in Doom editing.

Very little in DOOM editing is intuitive as it relates to other programs:) You have your basic windows stuff, you learn the DOOM way of doing things (level structure) and the rest is up in the air.
(fix sp mistake)

Originally posted by deep

I think the issue might be that there are more options, making it a bit overwhelming for some people. Nobody reads anything you know:) So in that sense WA is less intimidating.

I tend to read everything so... :)
Deepsea is very well done but I just don't like all the big menus. Like opening the linedef proprety and there's a big menu with 40 possible things to do and each menus opens another one with other possibilities. I don't say it's bad but I just don't like it. WA has fewer and smaller menus and I find it easier to do sectors and edit its propreties. I find Deepsea good if I want to make complicated maps and more advanced stuff like the "F6" and "F7" propreties. I only liked Deepsea cause it's easy to edit the lumps, sprites,etc... But I think this program is for more advance people making big projects.

IOW, there's very little in the computer world that's "intuitive". It's what one LEARNS to do. So if one learns "A" first then "A" is said to be intuitive. Countless examples exist in Doom editing.

As I said, it's just an opinion. I meant intuitive by easy. In WA you just right click, choose what kind of shape you want and the size and it's all done. In DS, it's the way that I found weird. I take a sector to move it and it takes a couple of seconds before it starts moving but if I moved my mouse the sector don't or move very slowly. I toggle with the grid setting and it didn't change anything. And when I click on a linedef and move it, it start zooming like crazy until I left+right click and my sector is all messed up. It might just be a bug but it kept messing up my maps. So I decided to just drop DS and go back in WA. The only time I use DS now is when XWE has trouble compiling scripts so I use DS ( Like the unanswered thread I posted not so long ago.)
Anyway, I found WA simpier because, well ... it was the 1st editor I found and it took me less time to learn than DS, which I had it since I join the community and sometimes I still have a hard time doing something.

I started with WadAuthor because I asked on these forums, which was best for an editing newbie, and they said WA. I still use it, just cause I haven't found reason to change. Most of the extra stuff in DeepSea (editing sprites, etc.) can just be done in WinTex, anyway.

I started using Wad Author because my friend showed it too me and said he liked it so I said "Hey, I'll get it too."...there ya go.

Originally posted by Darkstalker
[B]As I said, it's just an opinion. I meant intuitive by easy. In WA you just right click, choose what kind of shape you want and the size and it's all done.

We all post Opinion:) Some things are factual though. "Intuitive" does not mean "easy" - look it up:) "Easy" is as I described - there is less for you to explore - otoh you actually have more to do, since now you jump around between tools to edit. IMO, that is "harder" by it's very nature.

The DeePsea F1 introduction "Getting Started" is all about prefabs ending with a little line drawing. DeePsea prefabs are EXACTLY the same conceptually as WA. Except the DeePsea prefabs are more flexible. Here's why:

The DeePsea prefabs are interactive. IOW, you "choose what kind of shape you want and the size and it's all done". Except you can actually CHANGE the shape AND move it around the map before it's "all done". Try it, it's a world of difference. Use the prefab toolbars, they are easier. Press F1 when in a tool to get a quick recap of commands.

In DS, it's the way that I found weird. I take a sector to move it and it takes a couple of seconds before it starts moving but if I moved my mouse the sector don't or move very slowly. I toggle with the grid setting and it didn't change anything. And when I click on a linedef and move it, it start zooming like crazy until I left+right click and my sector is all messed up.

If you have a very large level AND a very slow computer then it "might" take a second while it grabs all the sector lines to move. On anything PII on up it's instantanous - usually a P200 is ample. Ask LUT he's got a 17,000 linedef level:) I'm working on a 14,000 linedef demo level to be released soon.

Look very carefully how DeePsea moves level data vs WA. DeePsea actually moves the INDIVIDUAL LINES and ALL CONNECTED LINES as an integral unit so you actually SEE the final shape as connected when dragging. It takes a bit more processing time to find the connecting lines, highlight them and move them smoothly. Plus you actually see the linedef lengths onscreen as you move or draw. Makes it easy (fast) to make lines the right length - again the net result is less time spent.

Grid setting is NA. Clicking on a linedef does NOT ZOOM. Only if you press the SHIFT key + left or right clicking will it zoom, which is what you were doing OR you have a defective keyboard. Newest version also zooms with the middle scroll button. Also if you press BOTH mouse buttons it will enter zooming mode.

It might just be a bug but it kept messing up my maps.

Very nonspecific statement. I assure you DeePsea "messes up" maps less than WA on large levels. I bet you did linedrawing (since you seem totally unaware of the prefabs) which can cause sector reference issues. If you edit enough to understand the basic sidedef/sector concepts it becomes trivial and THEN you'll understand why the BIG dialogs have all that stuff on them. It makes for instant quick fixing with no jumping around between different dialogs. You are correct, this feature is for advanced level designers. As are the texture browsers which give the most information in the shortest time possible.

I don't mind "opinions" at all, but I do mind when people don't explore fully or read the docs carefully (you didn't know the prefabs draw basically identical) or realize the significance of some features. If you ran 1024x768 then the "bigness" become less so. I used to have it split into 2 smaller dialogs - looks a bit nicer, but actually more work:)

Current version is 11.57 (one here at DW is old), 11.6 should be posted this weekend with new slope tool prefabs. There was a random toolbar command glitch that I finally solved in 11.6.

Originally posted by Archvile64
Most of the extra stuff in DeepSea (editing sprites, etc.) can just be done in WinTex, anyway.

"Most" is true. For that matter, XWE can do "most" also. DeePsea is for people who want more than "most":)

If you do HEXEN style editing (like in ZDOOM) you'll be in for a surprise. The single biggest problem with Wintex is that it's HARD CODED for names. For stock DOOM, no problem. In fact, it makes it a bit easier, since one doesn't need to know as much.

For the ports with all new names and new kinds of lumps (WAV, MP3, MIDI, MOD, etc), big problem. Lot's of horsing around for the simplest things.

As I mentioned before, in general, the more advanced you are in editing, the more obvious the limitations become (and the errors in Wintex - especially regards texture resources).

Btw, the DeePsea lump tools are fully functional in the shareware - so if you work with a newer port that has new types of resources, you might find it handy.

PS: WA made a mistake on the method choosen for his shareware enforcement, meaning you can use it for "free" and don't pay him as you should:)