Anybody played Espi's Back to Basics recently?

One of the classic E2 replacements, of course, but to my utter frustration I have never been able to complete it without cheating. The problem is the path to the blue key in E2M5. There are 3 silos set next to each other, 2 containing harmful green sludge and one with harmless red sludge. In the latter silo there are 3 pillars which seem to be stepping stones to an entrance which, thanks to noclip, I know leads to the blue key. But how to get across? They are too far apart to run across in the usual Doom style and there's no indication given that you need to enable jumping to complete this set of maps. I've gone around dry-humping doors and walls in that area with grim determination but all to no avail. So what gives? Is it some sort of bug in ZDoom? Am I missing something completely obvious? Is the bear Catholic? Does the Pope ....... oh never mind!

A thousand thanks in advance for anyone who can supply this old fart (playing Doom since 1994) the answer.

BTW Espi is (alas was) one of my favorite mappers. Played Suspended in Dusk again recently, incredible wad!

Do you know what straferunning is?

Just went back and replayed that part and, yes, you do have to straferun to get across. It's tricky because you'll need to change direction sharply at the end in order to finish the run. I kinda wonder how someone using only a keyboard would do on this part?

Ah, straferunning! Never mastered the art unfortunately (probably because I've always been a keyboard player). It simply never occurred to me that an essential key would be accessible only by straferunning. I think it's a flaw in what is otherwise a fantastic map (but then I would say that, wouldn't I?).

Anyway, mystery solved. Thanks, guys! Guess I'll finally, after all these years, have to start practicing with the mouse (I'm assuming straferunning is impossible with keyboard control only?)

Not impossible, just really hard, at least in my opinion. You'd need a high degree of dexterity in your fingers.

aldiboronti said:

(I'm assuming straferunning is impossible with keyboard control only?)

You're assuming incorrectly. Entirely doable with the keyboard. The trick is to angle yourself at like 35-45 degrees and then run straight per the diagram below. the \ represents you and the angle you're facing and the accumulation of \ represents the overall direction you travel (directly north at 360/0 degrees even though you're facing about 335 degrees (~north-northwest).

\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\

There's a very difficult secret to reach in E2M2. Through a window right next to the secret you can see a Berserk Pack.

This is why I think straferunning should only be used to access non-required areas.

The decision of whether a map should require strafe-running or not (even if just for secrets) is really a question of who that map is for. Anything that's intended for a wide audience should be maxable without straferunning. Even though tricks as obscure as void-gliding are now becoming well-known, it must be remembered that straferunning is an advanced, unintuitive tactic that took us all a while to learn.

As long as it's not SR50-required, I won't complain much about it 'cause I'll probably do it anyway. :P

I still straferun in non-Doom games. >_>

Hellbent said:

You're assuming incorrectly. Entirely doable with the keyboard. The trick is to angle yourself at like 35-45 degrees and then run straight per the diagram below.

I find it very difficult to get the angle right with keyboard. Seems like I'm not running any faster, and so I can't do E1M4 exit room jump that way. Back in the day when I still used mouse, it was much easier.

I'm working on a map where there's a (non-essential) key that's hard to reach, and some people will probably think it needs SR but in fact a normal run will suffice, so long as it is approached the right way (turn to correct facing, THEN do a regular, straight run...)

hex11 said:

I find it very difficult to get the angle right with keyboard. Seems like I'm not running any faster, and so I can't do E1M4 exit room jump that way.

If you find the longer of the standard E1M4 jumps impossible and you're lined up correctly (at exactly 45 degrees), it's possible that you're using normal straferunning (strafe-40) instead of the faster strafe-50. The E1M4 jump is pretty much at the upper limit of the size of gap that can be crossed with strafe-50 (and no additional speed boost).

strafe-40 and strafe-50

Vordakk said:

Just went back and replayed that part and, yes, you do have to straferun to get across. It's tricky because you'll need to change direction sharply at the end in order to finish the run. I kinda wonder how someone using only a keyboard would do on this part?

Oh, I remember that map (way too confusing for my mind which gets so lost with these twisted paths) and that very jump (which caused me lots of trouble). I don't use mouse when playing, so I wondered how difficult for me it would be now when I am slightly more skilled. I did it on my first attempt, so I dare to say (sorry aldiboronti) that Espi had every right to incorporate this jump in a WAD "for a wider audience". BTW I used to had trouble with Alien Vendetta MAP31 as well (a jump across a gap at the very beginning), now I find it trivial.

Creaphis said:

it must be remembered that straferunning is an advanced, unintuitive tactic that took us all a while to learn.

Odd if such a technique is required in an episode called "Back to basics" then...

Hellbent said:

You're assuming incorrectly. Entirely doable with the keyboard. The trick is to angle yourself at like 35-45 degrees and then run straight per the diagram below. the \ represents you and the angle you're facing and the accumulation of \ represents the overall direction you travel (directly north at 360/0 degrees even though you're facing about 335 degrees (~north-northwest).

You know I never realized it, but back when I never considered using a mouse this was the same method I used to achieve the strafe running effect. You get a feel for the angle once you do it enough, though I usually had to re-adjust my initial angle to get it just right.


Sadly I have not played Back to Basics yet. I must fix this.

neg!ke said:

Odd if such a technique is required in an episode called "Back to basics" then...

Believe it or not it was something I learned on a basic level before I even knew what the term "straferunning" meant. The act of doing it can be complex sometimes, but I do feel it is a basic gameplay element to Doom itself.