Pre-Sunder, yet beyond Hell Revealed difficulty maps

I'm looking for some good, serious levels that are also extremely difficulty (at least on Ultra Violence). I'm interested in maps that are maybe just below the Sunder-level, yet clearly above the Hell Revealed level of difficulty. At the same time they need to be regular quality/design levels (i.e. no Nuts.wad's or Longdays.wad's or anything like that). I have some ideas I'm putting down below this paragraph; please let me know what entries from the list you think would best fit the category of difficulty I'm looking for and also add any additional maps you may think of as well. That would be most appreciated for replies/suggestions.

Wads I'm already thinking about (on UV if it has skill settings):
-skepland.wad
-Ashen Gardens
-Death-Destiny's maps, some but not necessarily all (if you think any make the category please specify which one(s))
-Eternal's slaughtermaps, primarily G. O. Evil, Cybersky, and 32innail Map05 (but NOT Longdays.wad)
-Any maps from Speed of Doom or Vanguard?
-As stated above, please make any other suggestion(s) you may have as well that fit my criteria well in your view.

Kama Sutra

Snakes said:

Kama Sutra

From what I hard that's more like on par with HR by maybe I'm wrong. Maybe specify which maps are hardest? Generally if you're going to reference an episode or megawad, I'd appreciate if you specify which maps in specific best fit the type of difficulty I'm looking for, unless it really is an extremely tough set as I'm looking for basically from start to finish. Personally I can't think of very many episodes or megawads (besides Sunder of course) where even the early maps are that extreme.

Also what's your take on the ones I listed myself?

Alternatively I have another idea for the maps I'm thinking of, or ones you suggest, that you can use if you'd prefer. Take a scale from 1 to 5 for UV difficulty, where:

1=Easier than Hell Revealed
2=About on par with Hell Revealed
3=Somewhat harder than Hell Revealed
4=Considerably harder than Hell Revealed, but not quite Sunder-level
5=As hard or harder than Sunder

Then off that scale I'd be looking for generally maps that would rate a 3 or a 4, 4 being the jackpot. But also mention the 5's, in the case you do know of any other maps that are every bit as tough as Sunder.

Generally anything that rates a 1 or 2 is easier than I'm interested in, but I have it on the scale for proper comparison and also in case any map I noted is no harder than the average HR map. For additional listings, I'm interested in the 3's, (especially) 4's, and 5's you can think of.

As I mentioned though this whole scaling thing is optional and just a way to provide some guidance if it helps. If you just want to list maps that you think fit the difficulty category I'm looking for, that would be perfectly fine and welcome too. :)

The two Scythe megawads get kinda hard towards the end. I remember that one level in Scythe, level 28 I believe, where you have to run as fast as you can through the level to avoid being killed after a certain time. You get like maybe less than a minute to do it. I got seriously frustrated with that level. But what a brilliant concept.

Also, I remember Deus Vult I and II being hard as well.

Vordakk said:

The two Scythe megawads get kinda hard towards the end. I remember that one level in Scythe, level 28 I believe, where you have to run as fast as you can through the level to avoid being killed after a certain time. You get like maybe less than a minute to do it. I got seriously frustrated with that level. But what a brilliant concept.

Also, I remember Deus Vult I and II being hard as well.

Although I'm looking for a monster-based challenge (thus time limit doesn't quality) I will comment that Map28 of Scythe is extremely hard to get by on UV. I think even the fastest runner has to rely on being shot forwards a bit at the end. I'm not sure if UV-Max is even possible or has ever been done on that level.

Later maps in Scythe 2 as well as DV are possiblities though (although I'd like to see a later development phase of DV2 before playing). I'm starting to really wonder if I have any good ones in my own list though.

Cometh How?

Have you played everything in the slaughterfest2011 thread?

I dunno, dude. I'm playing through Sunder now, and honestly it's not nearly as hard as I thought it'd be. I seem to remember Hell Revealed 2 on UV being ultra-hard, and how I really felt a sense of accomplishment when I beat it. It's not just large numbers of monsters, but how they're placed as well as how the map-makers used the architecture and height variations against the player quite a bit.

I'm gonna keep playing through Sunder and see if it gets any harder.

EDIT: Got to Map 07...yeah. 2900+ monsters. Guess I spoke too soon?

I don't get why you totally discount wads like nuts or longdays. There are various demos on both of those wads, plus similar maps.

For recent wads, there's a consistent group of authors who release their stuff in wads & mods. Many of them are also demo recorders.

http://doomedsda.us

eaxt springs to mind.

You might want to take a look at Slayer, though it is probably a matter of personal style whether it is harder than HR.

map11 of oneweek.

The last two maps of One Bloody Night.

If you're willing to consider Zdoom maps, then some by "Virgil the Doom Poet" might be worth a look, notably Claustrophobia, though this is maybe more annoying than anything else. There's also his Afterdoom 2, which isn't port-specific.

If you're capable of surviving maps of the difficulty you are requesting, why not record some demos?

I'm probably going to get dissed for this, but Journey to Hell sort of fits this bill. Granted it never got past beta, is unpolished, and some levels remain blatant base rips from HR, AV and others.
I'm too much of a newb to recommend anything else. Though after playing some of Sunder, then playing HR, I can see that you don't necessary need massive monster counts to increase difficulty considerably.

As far as map28 of Scythe, I had to rocket jump twice, once at the beginning and again at another opportunity, and it was still hard.
This video "I DID IT YES YES YES I DID IT OH DEAR GOD YES!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TZye_pF-0U shows a dude doing it the hard way.

Vanguard maps weren't as hard as you think. What are you talking about?

Speed of Doom?

Newgothic - movement 1 (ngmvmt1.wad)

Maybe Hell Revealed 2?

Besides the excellent ones that have already been mentioned JTH (Journey to Hell) wad map 6 is very challenging.

Shaitan's Luck, esp the last map.

Titan 2 map 07 is up there too.

Newgothic, Phml's speedmap collection, Doomworld speedmapping sessions 22 and 24 (not all the maps in 24 are slaughtermaps though, but all apart from one or two are either that or Jodwin-style hard maps).