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Katamori

Mapping is an art! Agree or disagree?

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Since I played the first custom-made I've known (Eternal Doom), I tried several WADs, and sometimes, I saw amazingly epic stuff!

Just think of the maps of esselfortium, Vader, Tormentor667, AgentSport, Mechadon, Jimmy Paddock, Cell, Paul Corfiatis, Thomas van der Velden, etc... sometimes I feel that their maps can be better than some of the modern FPS games' levels.

I think it's a bit more than gaming. It's a strange mix of digital entertaining and art, because all of these people need inspiration and ideas to make maps, like an architecturer.

Do you agree with me? Or you think I'm an idiot?

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If this were a poll, I'd say you're an idiot ;) (I always take the troll option)

To actually answer your question... yes, it's probably an art. We're designing pseudo-3D constructs for aesthetic and functional/gameplay purposes in a digital medium, so it's somewhere between science and art IMO.

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I Agree definitely.
mapping is art, you need to be artistic to create map.
i'm a scientist, not an artist and when i try to make maps it's very hard for me to pass from my mind to "reality".
when i try to make map the result is always far from what i have in mind.so being a artist is mandatory if you want to make good map

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I see it as art much like a mathematical equation can be beautiful. Pretty much anything that's worth doing has some artistic value anyway, but naming things as such tends to diminish their value in my opinion (if only because the word "art" is all too often used to discuss utter bullshit works that are intrisically too weak to mean anything without some ackwardly tacked on crude message).

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Phml said:

Pretty much anything that's worth doing has some artistic value anyway, but naming things as such tends to diminish their value in my opinion (if only because the word "art" is all too often used to discuss utter bullshit works that are intrisically too weak to mean anything without some ackwardly tacked on crude message).

The essence of "art" has been raped pretty good over the ages.

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Art is the act of purposefully creating something in order to affect one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect.

So yeah, it's certainly art. To what degree is up for debate I guess(or maybe depends on the mapper).

Grain of Salt said:

you're in serious need of some Erik Alm in there, perhaps garnished with a bit of Gusta and some Insane_Gazebo seeds.


And let's not forget our friend Espi either.

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PRIMEVAL said:

Heck, any game from before 2000 was artistic.


Oh my god shut your hole.

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It definitely is art, because making single player maps feels like how I believe is writing a novel. The 'science' part comes from the fact that I need to know how to use the editors and program things up.

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Of course it's art, it's creative expression aka art.

Vordakk said:

So yeah, it's certainly art. To what degree is up for debate I guess(or maybe depends on the mapper).


Or how pretentious the observer is. There are lots of people who still claim that games aren't art and aren't a legitimate medium for story telling.

Art is the act of purposefully creating something in order to affect one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect.


This is a bit murky for me. Isn't everything you create made to affect one or more senses? I also don't like the idea of art having to be created specifically, to me any sort of creative expression is art. Any other definition of art would be subjective so it wouldn't work.

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I partially agree it is some form of art, though I too think it's a bit redundant to tack that on just anything; especially in today's world. To me, art in mapping would be something in the works of Bob Evans/Jim Flynn/Jens Nielsen/etc. Or it could be something like Cyberdreams; basically something that comes off so differently from the rest in a way that I would notice is not something easily achieved.

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stewboy said:

Define 'art'.


Something you look at and enjoy/Hate that was made by a person/camera.

and Yes Mapping is an "art".

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valkiriforce said:

I partially agree it is some form of art, though I too think it's a bit redundant to tack that on just anything; especially in today's world. To me, art in mapping would be something in the works of Bob Evans/Jim Flynn/Jens Nielsen/etc. Or it could be something like Cyberdreams; basically something that comes off so differently from the rest in a way that I would notice is not something easily achieved.


So whether something is art or not is based on quality?

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xvertigox said:

This is a bit murky for me.


You've just summed up why I never cared for art classes in school. "Art" can be anything to anyone, so who's to say my C- drawing was really that bad? :)

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xvertigox said:

So whether something is art or not is based on quality?

I don't speak universally; it's an art form to be sure, but I feel the more unique maps I've played feel more befitting such a title.

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Art is something of beauty and/or something that is sublime (beyond beauty and beyond comprehension of truly knowing its sheer quality as something absolute, like the never-ending universe for example) and is henceforth, reaffirming one's feeling of humanity- to feel like a human being (it does not necessarily denote pleasure). Well-written plays, aged grand architectures, impressionist landscape paintings, non-pop music can be art.

For me, Doom isn't quite art; it doesn't achieve that depth (charms or merely colourful displays or imitating reality should not be confused with beauty/sublimity). Art is not necessarily something that is just visibly appealing on the surface.

I'm not saying Doom/mapping isn't a form of aesthetics. You do have structural forms of mapping (such as layouts and architectures) and usage of textures and colour contrast to take into consideration. But it doesn't 'translate' as well as real-life artworks would; it lacks the human touch. In essence, it's just a video game designed for one thing- entertainment. Call it a fun work, a pleasure to play through and look around, it may be art to a degree, but it's not wholly art and can never be.

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detailing maps and making great map layouts that flow nice is definalty an art. Just because your not drawing on a canvas doesnt mean its not art.

Making a good map takes creativity and vision, you cant just throw a bunch of squares together and call it a good map.

Obviously some people got more artistic skill than others.
Some people once they learn how to work a map editor can actually make some decent stuff, but others will make very blocky nonsense structures.

This is why seed building map programs fail because they feel soo dry and lifeless for the most part. Dont get me wrong, some of the maps generated with these programs can be good basic layouts for something better, but as for stand alone maps? *******ly not.

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Joshy said:

Art is something of beauty and/or something that is sublime (beyond beauty and beyond comprehension of truly knowing its sheer quality as something absolute, like the never-ending universe for example) and is henceforth, reaffirming one's feeling of humanity- to feel like a human being (it does not necessarily denote pleasure).



Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it is 100% subjective so anything and everything should be regarded as beautiful as someone out there will think it is.

Joshy said:Well-written plays, aged grand architectures, impressionist landscape paintings, non-pop music can be art.[/B]


Who is to say what is and isn't well-written? Like I said it's a purely subjective thing so that can't be used in a definition.

Joshy said:
For me, Doom isn't quite art; it doesn't achieve that depth (charms or merely colourful displays or imitating reality should not be confused with beauty/sublimity). Art is not necessarily something that is just visibly appealing on the surface.[/B]


Again, who says it doesn't achieve enough depth? Subjective.

Joshy said:
In essence, it's just a video game designed for one thing- entertainment. Call it a fun work, a pleasure to play through and look around, it may be art to a degree, but it's not wholly art and can never be. [/B]


This seems so ignorant to me, games can't be art? If you regard any form of story telling as art then games should be considered art too. Also art is a binary thing, either something is or isn't art, how can something be artistic than something else? Who decides how artistic something is or isn't? This seems like antiquated thinking to me.

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xvertigox said:

This seems so ignorant to me, games can't be art? If you regard any form of story telling as art then games should be considered art too. Also art is a binary thing, either something is or isn't art, how can something be artistic than something else? Who decides how artistic something is or isn't? This seems like antiquated thinking to me.


Tell that to people like Roger Ebert, who don't play video games, don't understand video games, yet sensationally declare that they can never be art. Seriously, Roger? I like you and your movie reviews, but I lost a lot of my respect for you when you posted that article.

To be fair, he did later apologize for that article, but I believe he then declared that games weren't art yet, or some crap like that.

My thoughts: If you don't understand and appreciate a medium, you have no right to decide whether it is art or not. I believe that video games are capable of artistic expression. Just look at something like Mario; the world he inhabits is completely illogical and absurd, yet somehow it doesn't feel like a mish-mash of insanity; somehow, it feels like a cohesive fantasy universe where anything can happen; it somehow feels very artistic to me.

And for an example slightly closer to home, Doom. People have said that they were scared when they first played it! That's an emotional response right there! Even I, when presented with a really good map that captures my imagination, feel a sense of wonder and excitement.

Art is one of those intangible things that's impossible to perfectly describe. Still, I believe a good map can be classified as a work of art. In a way, a good map is like a good story; both must flow well and build a cohesive narrative. If a map doesn't flow well, or have pleasing asthetics, or have the right length, or the right balance, or a good beginning, middle, and end, people who have played a lot of Doom will notice.

A good map is like a well designed amusement park ride. Different rides have different styles of entertainment, just like there are different styles of maps, but they both must convey a feeling to the patron, of fun, excitement, and immersion.

So, yes. I believe mapping, and video games in general, are art.

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If you don't accept the premise of "anything creative and expressive = art" you could always boil it down to Doom has sprites/textures/music etc so it's therefore are. Also works with the idea of art has to illicit a response in that arch-viles make me scared so bam, they are art.

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xvertigox said:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it is 100% subjective so anything and everything should be regarded as beautiful as someone out there will think it is.

Eye of the beholder is probably the most overused idea when it comes to the idea of art. And I personally believe is the most inaccurate and flawed statement when it comes to subjectivity.

Behold, a work of 'art' :P:


In my opinion, it's not always 100% subjective when it comes to art. You have people claiming something to be a work of art because it embodies a price tag of $1,000,000.000. Conflicting interests (it's worth money! The artist is dead!) and agreeableness (pure pleasure like pornography, yay dope! FEELS GOOD DUDE, look at the colours, oh the walls are melting again!) does not equate proper subjectivity; it's more of a muddied underdeveloped subjectivity. People may perceive something to be a work of art, while an artist (the kind that splatters paint on canvas) would simply analyse it objectively and say what could be done to make it better. A work of art for the artist could be seen as the work of expressing sensations of experiencing beauty/human experiences. "My god, that's beautiful, I want people to try and feel exactly what I'm feeling right now."

Who is to say what is and isn't well-written? Like I said it's a purely subjective thing so that can't be used in a definition.

Again, who says it doesn't achieve enough depth? Subjective.

I was saying well-written for plays as an example.

As you mention subjectivity again, of course, everything is subjective. Even a passionate philosopher presenting an idea using logical premises is still subjective. Taking a photo randomly is subjective. What's left is (for a lack of a better word) refined subjectivity.

One may not need to be a chef to know they've been served good food, but at the same time, one may need to have developed/acquired tastes to truly enjoy something else. Say, for example, a refined barrel of whisky compared to vodka cruisers. Probably a bad analogy, but you can see the difference.

There are varying levels of what is 'well-written'. What I meant by well-written (I should have clarified perhaps) in the context of a play, is taking advantage of the beautiful form of the human body, and to be able to project bizarre and ineffable body movements, to make a stage performance as something cruel but melodious, beautiful. Compare a brilliant creative play to the movie Avatar. Avatar is full of colours, and WoW-like environments, but no depth (being rich in charms is not beauty nor art). It is nothing like the depth of an experience one could have embraced.

This seems so ignorant to me, games can't be art? If you regard any form of story telling as art then games should be considered art too. Also art is a binary thing, either something is or isn't art, how can something be artistic than something else? Who decides how artistic something is or isn't? This seems like antiquated thinking to me.


I don't think I said story-telling is in itself art. You can't really say that plays are always stories either. Plays (by Artaud, Grotowski, Stanislavsky, or even, Beckett whose plays have no stories) are a natural and human experience, very much like observing arts, or gaping at architectural phenomena. Art is about human experiences, the qualities that truly make us human. Art is not admiring the creativity of someone flexing their ability with Doom Builder (not to belittle those who are extremely skilled at all): Doom, and other computer games are in a category of their own. They have qualities of art (aesthetics, expression, creativity) but they don't qualify as art in essence; it's just a shooting game, it doesn't reaffirm my humanity, but I still enjoy it.

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Joshy said:

Eye of the beholder is probably the most overused idea when it comes to the idea of art......


I disagree with most of what you said but I'm pretty sure neither one of us will change their minds so I'll just say gg. I'd be interested to continue this convo via PM or something though.

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xvertigox said:

I disagree with most of what you said but I'm pretty sure neither one of us will change their minds so I'll just say gg. I'd be interested to continue this convo via PM or something though.

No worries, we'll agree to disagree :-)

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