Was Nine Inch Nails a phenomenon here years ago?

esselfortium said:

Indeed. New styles and genres, metal and all its subgenres included, stem from taking something familiar and adding influences from something different. Without that, you just get stagnation.

To be fair, "cross-pollinating" has to be done thoughtfully and with a certain level of competence for it to breed something that isn't garbage. I mean, think about how we got Kid Rock and Limp Bizkit. Some people crossed heavy metal with rap. Now we can't go back and undo it.

Vordakk said:

I mean, think about how we got Kid Rock and Limp Bizkit. Some people crossed heavy metal with rap. Now we can't go back and undo it.

Didn't Rage Against the Machine do the rap/rock thing long before those other artists? Whether you like RATM or not (personally I can take them or leave them), you can't deny they've wrote some great tunes.

Arguably, Anthrax/Public Enemy triggered the entire hip hop/rock movement with Bring the Noise. There are quality tunes to be dug up in the genre, but they're rare.

DeathevokatioN said:

One of the worst bands ever.

That's a bit harsh considering all the sugary-sweet pop bands put together by TV networks, the existence of screamo, pretentious "experimental" outfits like Mars Volta, wretched "girl groups" like Josie and the Pussycats, bedroom black metal that sounds like a wall of static, just about any rap rock/rap metal, gimmicks like Alvin and the Chipmunks, modern R&B, modern country, most pop-punk, metalcore, deathcore, 80s glam rock, most disco...

Use3D said:

I'm not offended by opinions, unless they're conveyed disingenuously. Saying NiN has somehow diluted a genre you prefer by making it accessible to another audience just smacks of insecurity to me.

They were part of a wave of bands that sowed the seeds that eventually diluted and dumbed down the entire genre. I don't see how that is not a valid reason for not liking a band, tbh and I wasn't a fan of their music to begin with. You are free to enjoy them though and I'll still respect your opinion if you do.

NiN gave way to even more hideous bands like KoRn, Linkin Park, and Limp Bizkit that had even lazier riffing until eventually it came to that period from the mid 90's to the mid 20's where all the good stuff was getting completely drowned out and "metal magazines" that formed around that time started ostracizing and refusing to give coverage to bands that didn't "evolve" (aka sell out) and didn't jump onto the bandwagon of lazily strumming downtuned chords, adopt lazy predictable song structures, writing music that evolved around break downs and whining about personal issues as opposed to writing riff orientated music.

Whatever though. This is just from the perspective of an opinionated metal asshole. :P There is a ton styles of metal that I do like, and within the styles of metal that I like there is enough diversity that it wouldn't have stagnated any time soon. I'd be lying if I said all forms cross genre pollination were bad, because to name an example, bands like Repulsion, Carcass and Terrorizer mixed the 80's style of hardcore punk to create a unique (back then) and awesome sound. And Slayer in the 80's mixed traditional heavy metal with punk to create thrash metal. But I think metal really didn't need to get cross pollinated with alternative in an attempt be made more "respectable" or to be more accessible in order to keep from stagnating. I'm quite sure it would have evolved in a different way if it weren't hijacked. Thank Satan though, for the internet which brought like minded fans together and revived metal from the underground. :)

But I guess what I'm getting at, is that your free to have your own taste, but I still hate Nine Inch Nails. :P

GoatLord said:

the existence of screamo, pretentious "experimental" outfits like Mars Volta

Ugh. Sorry to randomly butt in, but can we cut it with the "I don't like X band/genre so they're objectively among the worst bands/genres in existence" shtick?

Actual screamo/emocore (and I'm not talking about generic metalcore or deathcore shit that scenekids like to label "screamo") like Saetia, Hot Cross, Envy, etc. is all objectively respectable music not deserving of the bad press it gets. If you don't like the vocal style, that's fine. Just don't pretend its some awful corruption of music because you don't like the vocals. As for TMV... well I'd imagine I'm not the only person here who enjoys TMV and might get a little irked when reading your post that seems to assume the consensus on TMV is unanimous. :/

As for NIN: Trent has put out some great material via that project. 'Nuff said.

DeathovokatioN said:

They were part of a wave of bands that sowed the seeds that eventually diluted and dumbed down the entire genre. I don't see how that is not a valid reason for not liking a band tbh and I wasn't a fan of their music to begin with.

It depends on what you mean by "not liking a band." You seem to have a vendetta, yet apparently you don't even mind the band so much itself, just the resulting musical movement it might have had a hand in contributing to. That's just silly. If you want to hate on nu-metal/groove metal just do it. There's been plenty of legitimate artists in the past who have inadvertently contributed to shittier musical movements, yet they're still plenty respected.

Feel free to continually write from the perspective that NIN is some terrible, irredeemable band, but from every music buff who isn't in your own words, an "opinionated metal asshole," you'll probably find a variety of disapproving responses.

ultama121 said:

objectively respectable music

Things which boil down to personal taste, like music, can never be judged objectively. It's just fun to talk and argue about stuff.

P.S. Screamo/deathcore etc is god awful music at it's very best.

ultama121, you really need to take comments like mine with a grain of salt. I really think you know that I'm not speaking objectively. Do I really have to say "By the way, I'm not speaking objectively" at the end of my rant?

DoomUK said:

Things which boil down to personal taste, like music, can never be judged objectively. It's just fun to talk and argue about stuff.

... Oh, dear. I didn't think this was going to boil down to a subjective vs. objective argument. I don't want to derail this thread too much more, but I'll just offer this: I believe that for the most part, music is subjective. I do however, believe there's a line (sometimes it may be a bit abstract) that separates things such as the works of Bach and crunkcore oufit BrokenCYDE.

P.S. Screamo/deathcore etc is god awful music at it's very best. [/B]

If you're using those as synonyms, you might want to do some research.

GoatLord said:

ultama121, you really need to take comments like mine with a grain of salt. I really think you know that I'm not speaking objectively. Do I really have to say "By the way, I'm not speaking objectively" at the end of my rant?

To be honest, I didn't know at the time of typing. I have upon reading it again, though. Sorry about that... It is worth mentioning though, that the context of the post made it a bit confusing. The fact that you were bringing up those bands as possible "worst bands ever" to someone else with potentially very different tastes was sort of confusing to me. It just made more sense to me that you were trying to achieve some sort of objective common ground.

DoomUK said:

Didn't Rage Against the Machine do the rap/rock thing long before those other artists?

Chili Peppers, PWEI and Faith No More did it before them.

DeathevokatioN said:

Whatever though. This is just from the perspective of an opinionated metal asshole.

Nah. I definitely understand where you're coming from better.

And yet nu-metal gave way to metalcore with the kids.

ITT: People get butthurt that a crossover band made money.

Okay, getting really off-topic, but I had to point it out: "metalcore" as a term actually existed as early as 1987 (my evidence being a live D.R.I. video from the same year in which the announcer refers to them as "metalcore"), so what you really should be saying is that nu-metal, combined with modern hardcore, paved the way for what is considered metalcore by today's standards. It's a goddamned shame that the aggressive approach of Whermacht, S.O.D., D.R.I., Cryptic Slaughter, The Accused and other late 80s crossover groups eventually became unfashionable.

Except metalcore has more in common with thrash and speed and hardcore punk than nu-metal.

The wiki article even mentions that the term existed as early as you mention.

Duh! That's what the whole point of my rant is. It's just that the new school piece-of-shit bands that are called metalcore are influenced by nu metal and modern hardcore. It's an abomination what these musicians have done to heavy music.

Shaikoten said:

Pretty sure dwango5 had at least one NiN midi. I know for a fact that there are a few in the 32in24 series.

I remember playing some of those maps long ago, but the one I'm looking for isn't there (most likely was just a single map PWAD). I'll probably only find it by playing through all the old pre-97 maps, which sounds like a great excuse to play lots of old school Doom. :)

Btw, the music in dwango5 map11 is sweet (reminds me of old demoscene stuff), what is that track?

Grazza said:

And there's the NIN secret in E4M1. But I think it's just that NIN were very popular around the same time that Doom was one of the highest profile games. A lot of NIN music found its way into Doom wads, so most Doomers heard it quite often, and in midi form too - without all the lame singing and shit.

Maybe the major talk about NIN around 2003 was because of Doom 3's infamous hype?

When I think of the quintessential early rap/rock hybrid, I think of Mordred. Certainly not the first, but one of the most memorable. If only modern yo-kids-gone-metal had this level of talent.

DeathevokatioN said:

One of the worst bands ever.

One of the worst posts ever.

Doom Marine said:

One of the worst posts ever.

You're several posts too late; he already apologized for it. :\

printz said:

Maybe the major talk about NIN around 2003 was because of Doom 3's infamous hype?

That's another thing. Reznor was making sounds and possibly music for Doom 3, but dropped out halfway through, I guess so he could make With Teeth. There was a bit of hype about that, and disappointment after he left. I'm fairly sure the sounds he did complete were leaked and you can find them as an alternate sound pack for Doom 3.

Danarchy said:

I'm fairly sure the sounds he did complete were leaked and you can find them as an alternate sound pack for Doom 3.

One can easily find them at any doom 3 files aggregate site and they are perhaps the only redeeming factor doom 3 has. They really are that good.

Quast said:

perhaps the only redeeming factor doom 3 has. They really are that good.

Not really surprising, considering the great sounds and music he did for Quake.

Quast said:

One can easily find them at any doom 3 files aggregate site and they are perhaps the only redeeming factor doom 3 has. They really are that good.

I disagree, they have some generic clips in them. For example the Imp sight sounds are too familiar, they're like Doom 2 Hell Knights dying. And their fireballs seem to make a musical tone before firing, instead of a more realistic burning sound. Also, the dying marine sound is much more annoying, sounds like moaning. Finally, Pinky Demons are bearly hearable. The gun sounds were good though.

Trent Reznor didn't seem very happy about the quality of released Doom 3 sounds. In the accompanying text file he said something along "Tired of the lackluster sounds of Doom 3?"

By the way, don't link to them here. Doomworld seems to have an agreement with Id not to post links to alpha resources. I wonder how long will it last. I got the resources from a local games magazine CD, without knowing they're illegal. Let's leave it at that.

HavoX said:

You're several posts too late; he already apologized for it. :\

Then why haven't you apologized for your asperger?

Doom Marine said:

Then why haven't you apologized for your asperger?

Well, I never! :P

...Staying on topic, I think Trent is a cool guy. I still remember the time at a concert where he urged his fans to "steal" his music online instead of purchasing it (Yeah, take that, UMG!)

Snakes said:

Arguably, Anthrax/Public Enemy triggered the entire hip hop/rock movement with Bring the Noise. There are quality tunes to be dug up in the genre, but they're rare.

Run DMC and Aerosmith beat all of these guys by a number of years. Even disregarding the Walk This Way collab, Run DMC had many songs with rock riffs in the early 80s

Don't forget MC Hawking and Dark Matter.

Blondie's "Rapture" from the band's 1980 top 10 album "Autoamerican".

"Rapture" is a combination of new wave, disco, jazz, pop, and rap music, with the rap section forming an extended coda.

Also, first rap video broadcast on MTV.

I used to hate my life but then this forum introduced me to The Cheeky Girls, now I can die happy.