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hardcore_gamer

Your opinion on socialism?

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What is your opinion on socialism in the world today? I know that Americans appear to hate socialism more then Hitler hated the jews, but in Europe and other countries around the world there are lots of socialists.

I personally don't like socialism because I don't like the idea that everybody should be treated the same regardless of circumstances, and I also think that the idea behind socialism is too hard to put into practice (who decides what equality is?).

What do you think about socialism?

Discuss.

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This is as vague a question as asking what one thinks about any other wide umbrella term, such as "science", "religion" or "politics".

What kind of "socialism" are you referring to? The one that Americans hate? Euro-socialism? Faux-socialism? So-called socialism? Shadowy socialism? Pseudo-leftism? Living-room intellectual's socialism? Marxism-Leninism? Stalinism? Juche? Chinese "socialism"? Hoxhism? Where do you draw the line between communism and socialism?

hardcore_gamer said:

I know that Americans appear to hate socialism more then Hitler hated the jews,


That's mostly due to the propaganda before and after the two world wars: the Red Scare, the Iron Courtain etc. For them, socialism == stalinism, and anyone not thinking in this manner is a "pinko".

hardcore_gamer said:

I personally don't like socialism because I don't like the idea that everybody should be treated the same regardless of circumstances


So you wouldn't like a fair justice system either?

hardcore_gamer said:

who decides what equality is?


The same people who decide about inequality.

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It can work well with services such health and mail, but capitalism works best for the individual.

hardcore_gamer said:

I personally don't like socialism because I don't like the idea that everybody should be treated the same regardless of circumstances, and I also think that the idea behind socialism is too hard to put into practice (who decides what equality is?)

And this is the savagery that a lot of people don't realize until it's their problem. If I get sick, no matter how hard I have worked, I either have the choice to die, or be forever in dept. This kind of attitude also shows why the fair and balanced law system of America is failing and becoming geared to favor the people who have the most moola.

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Here's a trick question then: is a mediocre/poor capitalism preferable to a well-working socialism? (NOTE: countries like Sweden do not count. They are fully capitalist economies, but without all that "American Dream" bullshit. Not socialist, capisc?)

Because if the answer to the above question is "yes", then it means that it's preferable to be some poor-ass South American or even African guy living in his corrupt, poor, but fully capitalist shithole (better prospects?) and dreaming of the US, rather than being e.g. a citizen of the USSR or East Germany or Bulgaria when they were at their peak.

And it just gets more hilariously tragic if you count Sweden as a socialist country ;-)

I can't imagine some poor-ass Pedro, Gonzalez or Mtumbu thinking to himself "Gee, I'm poor and I live in a corrupt shithole, but Thank God we don't have socialism, at least! Totally unlike those pinko Swedes! Shame on them!"

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hardcore_gamer said:

I know that Americans appear to hate socialism more then Hitler hated the jews...


If that were really true, then Obama(who is essentially a naked Marxist) would've never gotten elected. There has always been a fervent sector of the American populous that has trended toward Socialism. Most Americans are quick to forget history, while the younger generations fail to properly learn history, so it makes total sense that ideas like Socialism which have been shot down before would re-emerge.

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Vordakk said:

If that were really true, then Obama(who is essentially a naked Marxist) would've never gotten elected. There has always been a fervent sector of the American populous that has trended toward Socialism. Most Americans are quick to forget history, while the younger generations fail to properly learn history, so it makes total sense that ideas like Socialism which have been shot down before would re-emerge.

you, sir, know FUCKING NADA about world politics. you are closeted in your local americanized view and your usage of big words is completely wrong. marxist? GET THE FUCK OUT, YOU FUCKING MORON. not even left-wingers in my country are marxist, you dumb fuck... and on the overall scale, even our right-wingers are about on par with obama. so cut the crap, or i will taunt you a second time.

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Well, if you ask any Greek (or even some Americans) now if he wants to move to a socialist country with no taxes and no unemployment, he'll say FUCK YEAH, even if said country is North korea. Because it looks good on paper. :-p

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Technician said:

You've fallen for Vordakk's trap card, dew.

dew's final eight words show otherwise. Presumably you didn't get the reference.

Maes said:

a citizen of the USSR or East Germany or Bulgaria when they were at their peak.

So how many people from those countries when they were at their alleged "peak" have you spoken to?

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Vordakk said:

Most Americans are quick to forget history, while the younger generations fail to properly learn history, so it makes total sense that ideas like Socialism which have been shot down before would re-emerge.

That's true. Also a major factor is that the strong propaganda by those in power have incorrectly convinced people here that socialism is basically like North Korea or the USSR, as if there was nothing in between.

Vordakk said:

Obama(who is essentially a naked Marxist)

lolwut

I'm sorry, but in this sentence, you sound like a self parody of a deluded far right-winger. The succeeding two sentences are pretty reasonable as an observation of the American public, though.

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Grazza said:

So how many people from those countries when they were at their alleged "peak" have you spoken to?


Quite a few actually, mainly from Bulgaria, thanks to the relative ease with which they could come in Greece for vacations even during the communist era, and due to family acquaintances. We even had regular guests from Bulgaria at home, and 80s Bulgaria was way ahead of 80s Greece. Hence my "poor capitalism" question.

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dew said:

you, sir, know FUCKING NADA about world politics. you are closeted in your local americanized view and your usage of big words is completely wrong. marxist? GET THE FUCK OUT, YOU FUCKING MORON. not even left-wingers in my country are marxist, you dumb fuck... and on the overall scale, even our right-wingers are about on par with obama. so cut the crap, or i will taunt you a second time.


Did I strike a nerve, dew? Judging from the hastily-scrawled profanity, I'd say that I did. You forget to jerk off today?

Anyways, I could care less if you think you're so much more informed than I am about "world politics". I have just as much right to comment in this thread as you do. If you want I can PM you my address and you can come and tell me to GTFO in person since you're such a tough guy.

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Vordakk said:

Did I strike a nerve, dew? Judging from the hastily-scrawled profanity, I'd say that I did. You forget to jerk off today?

Grazza said:

dew's final eight words show otherwise. Presumably you didn't get the reference.

I assume I'm not the only one.

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The older I get, the more I see that socialism was and never will be anything more than utopia. Putting politics aside for a moment, I think it's part of human nature to take advantage of one another any way they can. I've watched Zeitgeist II recently, and they say that the human nature thing is bullshit, but I disagree. Envy, jealousy, greed, selfishness, and all that are human feelings, and therefore part of what makes a human being.

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Nice idea in principal, doesn't work in reality. Perhaps if we'd all started as socialist and stayed that way, rather than moving through systems such as feudalism and capitalism, the idea may work. Thing is, with the carrot of personal gain being dangled over our heads, the idea of everybody being equal doesn't really appeal to most people. I know I personally would rather take my chances in modern day Britain, with equally realistic chances of becoming utterly destitute and fabulously rich, than live my whole life knowing I'll never stand a chance of really advancing. Obviously a lot of the people who have been in "socialist" systems such as communism had similar ideas, considering the history of the USSR (corruption and the eventual collapse of the regime, which turned into a rampant capitalist gangfuck) and China (incorporated capitalist ideals to advance the economy).

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I tried going out and doing socialism but get nervous with lots of strangers around so I use Facebook instead. :)

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Csonicgo said:

Socialism means I can eat this:
[hamburger]

Without getting this:
[death]


Hmmm... I dunno...some medical doctors would definitively want a word with you about that, let alone that if you don't have insurance you get that undesired outcome anyway ;-)

Phobus said:

Thing is, with the carrot of personal gain being dangled over our heads, the idea of everybody being equal doesn't really appeal to most people.


What was implemented in practical soviet-type regimes and even china, is not exactly equality: if you were an official member of the party (nomenklatura) and had the right connections you got work in good prestigious positions, if not you were not you would always be mediocre, low-level and/or suspected of being a troublemaker. This is "favoritism", "nepotism" etc. and is by no means exclusive to socilasim: a lot of "capitalism" economies have this built-in, much more in the public sector but also in some areas of the private sectors, where connections and who you are count more than what your ambitions or your skills.


Phobus said:

I know I personally would rather take my chances in modern day Britain, with equally realistic chances of becoming utterly destitute and fabulously rich, than live my whole life knowing I'll never stand a chance of really advancing.


An engineer in the 60s could count on almost immediate hiring by a major industry as soon as he graduated (and was approached even before he finished all exams or finalized his dissertation).

Today, the average graduate is clearly overqualified for what the job market has to offer: the norm is working odd jobs, being paid "under the counter" without a permanent or even a determined-time work contract (outside contractors are preferred, because the employed can stop worrying about registering with social security) etc. and the future doesn't seem any better.

No wonder that many people today (includign me) would gladly shit on that -inexistent- carrot for the sake of a minimum guaranteed income and a modicum of social welfare, instead of this fucked up free-for-all. The problem is that there's no carrot dangled at all anymore: just the whip.

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Maes said:

Hmmm... I dunno...some medical doctors would definitively want a word with you about that, let alone that if you don't have insurance you get that undesired outcome anyway ;-)



I was poking libertarians on this one, who have to admit that the USDA is a good idea, even if it's socialism. :3

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Vordakk said:

If that were really true, then Obama(who is essentially a naked Marxist) would've never gotten elected.


So god damn true

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Vordakk said:

Did I strike a nerve, dew? Judging from the hastily-scrawled profanity, I'd say that I did. You forget to jerk off today?

Anyways, I could care less if you think you're so much more informed than I am about "world politics". I have just as much right to comment in this thread as you do. If you want I can PM you my address and you can come and tell me to GTFO in person since you're such a tough guy.

defend your sperglord ignorance with freedom of speech and american values, nice one. ah am a 'murcan n' i have rights to be a clueless dick. and of course, you'd definitely lay me out in person, so i'm going to hide behind my lil' keyboard.

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It's sad to see that so many of you has swallowed that propagated myth about socialism whole and just sit here happy to propagate it further without actually thinking twice about what is true and what is not.

Someone claimed that humans were essentially non social creatures, which is factually incorrect. Humans are very social creatuse. it's in our genes to seek contacts and allies with other humans. We even take pets to nurish our social desires. If you actually truly believe that we are asocial in behaviour. Then it calls to reason that whenever you meet a new person, the first thing you think of should be how you can best fuck that person over, so that you can get what he's got. Altruistic behaviours wouldn't exist at all if we were not social by nature. We learn by social interaction. Everything about us is basically social behaviour. We act because of how th people around us percieve us.

Virtually all reasearch done basically comes back to tell us just how social we are as a species.
What we also are however is tribal creatures. We seek to find ways to distinguish our group as special and damn others for not being special like we are. You can see it all around in society. People aligning themselves to a cause, a country, a cliqe, a type of music, a religion and then defend it with fervor against anyone saying anything against it.

Now. lets make a way with some of this socialism and capitalism mythos that americans cradle like a teddybear at a stormy night.

Marx did indeed write the socialist manifesto. And that was a quite extreme position he took. Kommunism is closely related to what that is. Now the main tenet there is that everyone should have equal of everything and there's no if's and buts about it. More or less. That has never happened in any kommunist nation though. The people that are in power usually find out that they want to stay there and then they end up doing so.

Now, we can put that part aside. Because it's irrelevant really. Sure there are still kommunists around today. But that's just as there are other ideologists around from other wings. Like Libertarians and what have you.

A fine example I would say of a social community at work is Sweden. We have an unusually high general standard of living. Social safety nets and a capitalist driven economy. It's a Social democaracy with a liberal focus.

You see what is done in Sweden, is to take the different parts of the different ideologies, and see what actually works. Then take those parts that work, and throw away the rest. To make a stable economy, a solid social safety net and a competetive market all at once. Sure there are dissent and lots of people would have it other ways. But that is mostly because they see what they would liket to chance that would be better from their perspective. But other people have a different perspective and the most important thing a country's leaders can do is create a system that balances everyone needs, before their desires to create a level playingfield.

Americans like to talk about the american dream, as a place where anyone can do anything. Well. I would actually say that the dream doesn't really reside in American culture. But it actually lives in socialdemocracies like Sweden and it's ilk. Where everyone gets the same right to education, as well as health care.

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Violator said:

So god damn true


You guys really don't know what Marxism is, do you?

I mean, come on, there's trolling, but I'm starting to worry about some of you. Is a book kryptonite to some of you guys? Have you actually read and actually understood some of Marx's views on anything? I'm sure you wouldn't be spouting this bullshit if you did.

In before "but csonig, the nordic model is a failure!"

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Maes said:

This is "favoritism", "nepotism" etc. and is by no means exclusive to socilasim: a lot of "capitalism" economies have this built-in, much more in the public sector but also in some areas of the private sectors, where connections and who you are count more than what your ambitions or your skills.

The "nice" thing about capitalism is that it is fairly open that you get ahead by whatever means you can, whereas most socialism-based ideologies fall afoul of exactly the same behaviour. The humans in the equation are the problem.

Maes said:

An engineer in the 60s could count on almost immediate hiring by a major industry as soon as he graduated (and was approached even before he finished all exams or finalized his dissertation).

Today, the average graduate is clearly overqualified for what the job market has to offer: the norm is working odd jobs, being paid "under the counter" without a permanent or even a determined-time work contract (outside contractors are preferred, because the employed can stop worrying about registering with social security) etc. and the future doesn't seem any better.

No wonder that many people today (includign me) would gladly shit on that -inexistent- carrot for the sake of a minimum guaranteed income and a modicum of social welfare, instead of this fucked up free-for-all. The problem is that there's no carrot dangled at all anymore: just the whip.

As a recently graduated individual myself, I know exactly what you mean, having done cash-in-hand work, work experience placements and all sorts. I've fortunately managed to get a job that is at best tangentially related to my degree. This is the sort of thing I meant by there being a carrot. If you keep at it, you might just get lucky.

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ITT:

1. Only liberals are well-read (true story).
2. Amerikkka is behind the curve because it's not socialist enough.
3. Being patriotic is cool if you're Swedish, if you're Amerikkkan it proves your ignorance.

So Kristus, what are your thoughts about this article?

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Csonicgo said:

You guys really don't know what Marxism is, do you?

I mean, come on, there's trolling, but I'm starting to worry about some of you. Is a book kryptonite to some of you guys? Have you actually read and actually understood some of Marx's views on anything? I'm sure you wouldn't be spouting this bullshit if you did.

In before "but csonig, the nordic model is a failure!"


He is paving the way for a Marxist America and is slowly taking away Americans freedom and rights little by little, Democrat and Republic political parties are all puppets of the Marxist sweep over America and are all in the scoop, there is plenty of disturbing evidence to back up my argument. I wouldn't directly call him a "Naked Marxist" yet but he sure is working for the bankers.

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Vordakk said:

ITT:

1. Only liberals are well-read (true story).

You're not helping to crush that point, dude.

Vordakk said:

2. Amerikkkans are behind the curve because they're not socialist enough.

You're proving your own point 1.

Vordakk said:

3. Being patriotic is cool if you're Swedish, if you're Amerikkkan it proves your ignorance.


You proved point 1 again.

Violator said:

He is paving the way for a Marxist America and is slowly taking away Americans freedom and rights little by little, Democrat and Republic political parties are all puppets of the Marxist sweep over America and are all in the scoop, there is plenty of disturbing evidence to back up my argument. I wouldn't directly call him a "Naked Marxist" yet but he sure is working for the bankers.


Once again. point 1. Liberals must be the only ones that can't spit out word salads.

I always ask for proof but I'll get infowars and prisonplanet links or some jerk's shitblog. I never get actual evidence I can read in a neutral POV article, because such things would be in on the conspiracy.

BUT JUST LOOK AROUND YOU!!!1

Come on, dudes. this is getting tiring.

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