Religion in DOOM Universe...

Yesterday I was wondering...atheism can't pair with the DOOM Universe.

If hell exists, Heaven exists too.

I'm not an expert, but the DOOM Universe is loosely based on The Christian concept of Universe, with the exception that demons are spirits and doesn't have a physical body...

What you guys think about?

::Prepares himself for a litany of posts overthinking something the designers put about 5 minutes of thought into::

Mexican Doomguy said:

the DOOM Universe is loosely based on The Christian concept of Universe

More like on the "I wanna be a satanist! 666! The Number Of The Beast! Pentagram! *death grunt*" concept of hell.

okay. if heaven exists, god and angels are a bunch of jerks for not helping at all. unless they're the ones littering hell with medkits and rocket boxes. but then they are still jerks for not dropping the bfg in like e1m2.

or wait, maybe the whole thing is a practical joke by god on the doomguy. see, doomguy is a descendant of job and this is a sequel to that part of the bible. except losing all posession and getting sick is weak shit, so to test his faith, he made doomguy lose the whole human race by wiping it out and torturing it in the afterlife. biblical.

Mexican Doomguy said:

If hell exists, Heaven exists too.

What is your proof for this claim? If the bible is your source, then that is circular reasoning.

Also bear in mind that the game exists in its own universe, where even the laws of physics are very different from those in ours. Space itself is shaped like a torus in the Doomguy's universe, for instance.

What Maes said: The game ostensibly just uses demonic imagery for the sake of ... demonic imagery. There's no real thought behind it to resembling any actual religions.

hell, if there's anything it might most closely resemble, it's Satanism as it actually exists, but even that's a stretch. Real life Satanism bases its symbols off of what Christians have considered "evil" symbols (even ones that originated as symbols of good and God; the pentagram, for instance), but in practice it's actually much more like Buddhism and denounces any existence of supernatural entities... and emphasizes good will towards fellow mankind.

Doom is just evil-looking for the sake of being evil-looking.

Guys, we aren't discussing religion itself. We're discussing the religion in Doom universe. Don't go off-topic.

There's really no mention of a religion other than Hell is the place where bad people go when they die and the occasional inverted cross and pentagram.

In the Doom Bible there are lots of references to Hell and the occult. I dislike it when people say they never put a lot of thought into Doom's story, when initially they did. Remember a lot was dropped for time, technical limitations, and for simplicity's sake.

Technician said:

I dislike it when people say they never put a lot of thought into Doom's story, when initially they did.

Well Tom did, then he was fired.

Technician said:

In the Doom Bible there are lots of references to Hell and the occult. I dislike it when people say they never put a lot of thought into Doom's story, when initially they did. Remember a lot was dropped for time, technical limitations, and for simplicity's sake.

Ok fair enough, if you consider Tom Hall a big part of DOOM then yeah, thought was put into religious aspects of the DOOM universe. I see Hall's final input into DOOM as minimal though, that's why I said what I said. I always assumed that he was ousted from id in large part because people like Carmack wanted to move away from Hall-esque storylines and RPG complexity towards more simple, brainless fast-and-furious gameplay. But if you say it was more about time and technical limitations, you may well be right.

I still say that this ranks as people overthinking something that probably amounted to what Maes outlined: "Satanic stuff is cool, and we like heavy metal, so let's make a game with demons and stuff!" The game wasn't exactly marketed to the MENSA crowd.

Vordakk said:

I still say that this ranks as people overthinking something that probably amounted to what Maes outlined: "Satanic stuff is cool, and we like heavy metal, so let's make a game with demons and stuff!" The game wasn't exactly marketed to the MENSA crowd.

When a given subject finds particular resonance with an individual, speculation in an attempt to form a closer bond with the work can be provoked, which in itself can provide a valid form of entertainment.

I like the Warhammer 40K-style interpretation that there is no heaven, only hell, and it is full of bad things comprised of man's deepest fears and passions, and fueled by his most wicked sins.

In other words, the afterlife sucks :P

According to the Doom novels - if you're not a Mormon, you're probably in league with the hellspawn.

Obviously the game makes real-life references to the Christian version of Hell (demons, satanic imagery, and the concept where "bad folks go when they die"), I don't really see any references to "religion" as a whole. Doom treats the notion of "Hell" as another realm or dimension. It's not really a Christian Hell, but rather that's the closest fathomable explanation the characters in the story can come up with for the existance of it. It's just a dimension that has always existed (for some unknown, yet "real" reason), and "Hell" is just what we call it.

Personally, I always liked to think of it as the Hell where all bad folks went to, instead of some other dimension that might've resembled any notions of Hell. Perhaps the demons, or their leader kept a real close eye on the chambers where the souls of the damned dwell and hid them real well.

Just in case someone like the Doom Marine got the idea to go there specifically to free them, or someone, similar to "What Dreams May Come", I'm guessing.

Some people don't know what suspension of disbelief is. If you don't believe that hell exists, does that really mean that hell isn't allowed to exist in a game either? If you watched dracula, would you instantly disown it because you know that vampires don't exist? They exist in the movie, and thats fine.

Well there was a Doom Bible after all.
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Doom_Bible

Mexican Doomguy said:

Guys, we aren't discussing religion itself. We're discussing the religion in Doom universe. Don't go off-topic.

You're asking a rather vague question about the religious imagery in Doom, but then asking people not to talk about it. Okay.

Anyway, if "atheism can't pair with the Doom universe", then the same people can't watch horror movies which have anything to do with supernatural forces either. Since atheists tend to be a scientifically-orientated bunch, they probably can't enjoy science fiction either, because the genre typically revolves around things which haven't been invented yet or things which haven't been discovered or things which probably don't exist, so it has no usefulness.

We like things because they're cool, and they make for an interesting story or a kick ass computer game. People still have imaginations even if they don't seriously think hell and such exist. There needn't be any more ascription than that.

Mexican Doomguy said:

Guys, we aren't discussing religion itself. We're discussing the religion in Doom universe. Don't go off-topic.

Mexican Doomguy said:

Yesterday I was wondering...atheism can't pair with the DOOM Universe.

If hell exists, Heaven exists too.

Looks like you went off topic when you started the thread.

But yeah, I mostly agree with other people here. It's basically a sterotype of hell - 666, pentagrams, goat heads etc. You've got monsters like the Cacodemon that came from a D&D cover.

Only other thing worth mentioning is perhaps the Dante references in Episode 3.

Vordakk said:

I still say that this ranks as people overthinking something that probably amounted to what Maes outlined: "Satanic stuff is cool, and we like heavy metal, so let's make a game with demons and stuff!" The game wasn't exactly marketed to the MENSA crowd.

Dunno, it was simplified to suit John Carmack's own tastes, and I dunno if he's in MENSA or not but he's certainly eligible in any case.

Fraggle also made a thread about E1M1 recently, which illustrates how much thought went into something so simple to play.

Also the theme of the demon invasion came from their AD&D campaign, so they were a bunch of huge nerds, because everyone knows that pen-and-paper RPG players are prone to overthink everything (they've got to outwit the DM after all). Just because stuff didn't appear in the finished product doesn't mean they haven't thought about it.

From Sandy Petersen's involvement, I'd say the presence of Hell and fiends doesn't mean there is a good counterpart. Petersen is a specialist of the Lovecraftian "mythos", were a big part of the overarching theme, the subtle aspect of the horror in these monster stories, is that we're alone against them. There is a God indeed, omniscient and omnipotent. He's not benevolent, merciful, or just -- he's a monstrous idiot soothed to sleep by a choir of monstrous flutists, and the disposition of the supernatural and higher powers towards humanity is, at best, utterly indifferent, and at worst relentlessly hostile.

fraggle said:

You've got monsters like the Cacodemon that came from a D&D cover

I've always wondered how id got away with that without the original artist trying to claim copyright.

It's a bit like the Alien(s) movies: they took inspiration, ideas, concepts from everywhere. You can try to shoehorn Doom into a single source and it might more or less fit, but then you're bound to find discrepancies.

DoomUK said:

I've always wondered how id got away with that without the original artist trying to claim copyright.

Copyright doesn't cover something that's essentially an inspired characterisation. At best you might claim it as a trademark. The simple answer is that the original artist either didn't know or didn't care enough to do anything about it.

People copy and rip stuff off all the time to make new stuff and Doom is a great example.

fraggle said:

The simple answer is that the original artist either didn't know or didn't care enough to do anything about it.

I wonder if a "copyright infringement watchdog" exists as a professional figure, I mean someone who regularly reviews ALL new media keeping an eye open for blatant copyright violations/plagiarism.

I know for sure that such jobs exist in specific industries (recording industry) and they operate at a ridiculously micro-management level e.g. someone's job literally consists of walking into a night club or restaurant, posing as a patron, taking note of what music is being played, and then reporting back to his bosses or even approaching the "culprit" directly -the latter may not be without physical danger-. Then again their scope is pretty limited, as they must physically walk into a specific place and usually only look out for copyright infringement affecting their client(s) and nothing more.

Teleporters textures have symbols from the Necronomicon of Simon.





Doom is an inside job by Chtulhu cultists working in the UAC, in order to train the troops before the Quakeguy enter their dimension and rocket jump all the game up to Chton. Wiping out most of humankind in Doom II was just a little accident from overzealous brainless demons (look, the baphomet has an hole in the skull. Coincidence? You decide).

What was the work of Jesus then? He has multiplicated shells and stuff to help the new messiah (who is able to revive more than Jesus himself with a gun and 50 bullets too!) to get rid of these sick bastards.

It's a Jeff Easly cover. He was one of the big D&D artists during the 1st and 2nd edition era, and one of my all-time favorites. He sells prints on his website, so that's maybe another thing to get for those hardcore Doom collectors, and D&D fans of course. :)

Mexican Doomguy said:

If hell exists, Heaven exists too.

Heaven might exist in the Doom universe, but to be gameplay-compatible, it would probably be like the Diablo Heaven: rather neutral, than helpful. This would elegantly explain why you never encounter angels or get to enter it (gates closed dude... you killed [former] humans)... Unfortunately, while a new series can be made with this idea (Heaven guys plotting on whether or not to conquer Earth), it would look too much like Diablo plagiarism.

Obviously the game makes real-life references to the Christian version of Hell (demons, satanic imagery, and the concept where "bad folks go when they die")

I like your use of the word "obviously". ;)

You go to hell and you shoot stuff.