Memento Mori 1 vs. Memento Mori 2

I just finished Memento Mori 2 for the first time, and I'm interested in learning which of the Memento Moris is considered to be better.

I personal liked 2 more. I thought the good map to bad map ratio was lower than in the first one, but the "good" maps were on average much better than the good maps from MM1. I still like them both a lot though.

I would definitely jump to saying the first one was better for me, but after a while of learning the maps from both megawads I can't help but feel they are both worth mentioning as great megawads. But yes, if I had to narrow it down I'd say the first one cause I like the first hand execution of how the gameplay is arranged. I think Memento Mori II looks better but the first one for me plays better.

Both are certainly enjoyable, though.

Memento Mori 2, but only because I've never played the first one (until now, as I speak :P).

My adventure with PWADs started mostly with the classics... I remember having played MM right after AV and I was soooo disappointed with MM... With time, it grew on me, MAP14,24,27 are my favs, I still can't stand the first episode, though (I dislike 6 out of 10 first maps). MM looks pretty bare, there are a few custom textures thrown here and there, still I think stone & bricks are predominant. MAP16 would be my choice for the most "typical" MM map.

After my initial disappointment with MM, I didn't consider downloading and playing MM2 for quite a long time. When I finally did - it changed the whole dooming experience for me. It is still among my top three WADs of all time, maybe even the most favourite one. So, an easy pick for ** MM2 **.

There's a bit more custom textures in that one, and almost all of them fit in well. (I can't say the same about MM2's successor, Requiem, unfortunately, where some lovely textures clash badly with these ugly tiles, like in MAP14 or MAP27). There is slightly more detail, but not always (MAP13 looks like an MM map). The difficulty was very well suited for me, I have played MM2 numerous times on Hurt Me Plenty, 2 or 3 years ago started incorporating skill 4 more and more often. MM2 features maps which I consider peak accomplishments of many old school mappers:

Forgotten Town (MAP25) by Denis Moeller
RRFR Fuel Refinary (MAP22) by Thomas Moeller (Requiem MAP06 would have been equally good, but is very buggy).
I like Matthias Worch mapping a bit less, but in this WAD he did an awesome job with all his contributions. MAP03 is my fave of him.
Kings of Metal (MAP29) by Jens Nielsen. More restraint than in MM28, but what an execution! This map is perfect for me.
Plus some awesome work by then unknown P.Noble, D.Kuykendall, J.Statz to sum up this incredible WAD.

Both are amazing accomplishments as far as I'm concerned, I voted for "Both are equally good". I think MM1 had a better consistency and had a higher ratio of maps that were to my taste, but then MM2 had absolute masterpieces towards the end, and Matthias Worch's maps have been a huge inspiration to me. Also both Andy Badorak's Map21's were quite amazing.

Both are great PWad- and are still enjoyable today, MM2 defintely has the graphical edge, though I would say they both have their fair share of good and bad gameplay maps. I would say MM2 edges it.
Also Mark Klem is a music genius, the music in both wads rocked :)

Ahhhh, Mark Klem...

I've never heard a soundtrack by him that I didn't like ;)

Both good and rather similar in nature, though personally I found MM2 a little better polished, with more even quality - fewer no-so-good maps. It's not a central feature, of course, but mm2mus.wad was, I think, slightly better quality than mmmus.wad.

But I get the impression that quite a number of people prefer MM.

From memory neither of them stand up too well in my opinion. They were alright for a single playthrough, but going back to them the early levels eventually bore me enough to leave me with no real desire to finish a further playthrough.

These megawads are about equally great, and there's a lot of superb atmosphere and action in both of them. Generally, MM1 has a more consistent progression, more colorful visuals, better sky textures. On the other hand, MM2's designs are more detailed and technically more complex, with more "depth". The ratio of poor maps/areas is higher in the second wad IMO, but my most favorite (and most difficult) of these 66 levels is also in MM2 (MAP28). Though I also really love MM1 MAP28.

I remember playing Memento Mori years ago through trying to find other works the Casalis did apart from Evilution and Plutonia. I enjoyed it very much since the levels were fun, and before I even got into searching custom PWADs, this was the first megawad I played, and I considered it to be longer and more difficult than Doom 2 and Evilution combined. There was still Plutonia, though. Later, I tried MM2, and it instantly became another favourite megawad of mine. I like MM2 for improved level design over the first, some maps which lifts E1's techbase style. There's also the outstanding music by Mark Klem and David Shaw. They also upped the difficulty more over the first MM, which gives me a stiff challenge any day now. Still, I prefer MM1, pretty much because it was not only the first MM2, but had some well-known authors that made fun, memorable, and well-designed maps, including Tom Mustaine (Evilution, Master Levels, and Perdition's Gate), the Casalis (Evilution and Plutonia), and Mackey McCandlish (Perdition's Gate and Hell to Pay).

The first one did a better job of evoking my imagination while the second felt like a higher-quality product.

I find MM to be the more consistent of the two, but MM2 to have the better highlights. MM2 Map22 will always be a favorite map of mine for its combination of nonlinearity, creative gameplay ideas and linedef usage. Thomas is probably the single author who has influenced my idea of a "good map" the most (alongside Erik Alm), and this map is a good example of why.

They're equally good in my eyes. It's a shame Jens Nielsen had such a reduced presence in the second one... MM07, MM28 are other favorite maps of mine.

DeathevokatioN said:

I think MM1 had a better consistency

SAV88 said:

Generally, MM1 has a more consistent progression

Snakes said:

I find MM to be the more consistent of the two, but MM2 to have the better highlights.

Hmmm, they throw in large squarish Nielsen maps in the very beginning of MM (including a big maze), put the first rocket launcher and the first plasma on the same map, both in secrets, and there's no other plasma to be found until MAP13; include Casali's maps in the package which are totally not fitting style-wise, especially MAP23, yet managed to be more consistent? I must fully disagree here.

PS Oh, and there's MAP19 (Maltraiter) which has its own unique texture consistency on its own :-p

vdgg said:

Hmmm, they throw in large squarish Nielsen maps in the very beginning of MM (including a big maze), put the first rocket launcher and the first plasma on the same map, both in secrets, and there's no other plasma to be found until MAP13; include Casali's maps in the package which are totally not fitting style-wise, especially MAP23, yet managed to be more consistent? I must fully disagree here.

PS Oh, and there's MAP19 (Maltraiter) which has its own unique texture consistency on its own :-p

Jens Nielsen's first two maps (4 and 7) are not LARGE, just medium-sized (geometrically) and medium-length (timewise), unlike MM2 MAP06, for instance. MM2's levels 4, 5, 6 are kinda strange for early stage maps -- lots of dark and complicated designs, confusing monster placements, etc. Though generally I really like complexity and depth in Doom maps, and I don't consider these three levels to be bad, just annoying/messy in parts.

IMO one of the strong points of MM1's progression is that it has three well-drawn sky textures of different colors, which help to emphasize the atmosphere of each episode ("morning", "afternoon", "evening"). In MM2, all three skies are red and feel basically the same. I personally would like MAP28 get a starry sky from Evilution :-) And "naturally" themed levels (like 21, 25, 29) would be in harmony with some mountainous sky like the one from Darken2.

Overall, it's a question of subjective feelings which wad is more consistent, as both wads have strength and weaknesses in terms of progression.

Yeah, I really liked Jens Nielsen's maps in MM1, very memorable and unique style.

MM2 map04 is an all-time favorite, but there's a lot of other cool maps in there. I never did manage to finish MM1 (lost interest after first handful of maps or so).

All this talk about it made me want to go through Memento Mori I again. I'm now on Map13 and I'll do a level vs. level thing for the two wads, putting the wad with better map (IMO) after the map number:

Map01: MM2
I never liked MM1's Map01 all that much while MM2's is one of my favorites.

MAP02: MM1
Both are nice easy levels, but I felt MM2's was too short to really get absorbed in.

Map03: MM2
MM1's is a textbook Mustaine map, MM2's is a textbook Worch map. Both are great, but I like MM2's more.

Map04: MM1
I really like MM2's, but MM1's is just awesome switch porn.

Map05: MM1
I didn't like MM2's, and I thought MM1's was great, so the winner is obvious here.

Map06: MM1
MM1's is one of the wad's weaker maps, but MM2's just sucks.

Map07: MM1
MM2's is just decent, while MM1's is one of my favorites in the wad.

Map08: MM1
It's a tough decision; their both very good. It's a hard choice but I'll go with MM1.

MAP09: MM1
MM1's was awsome, MM2's was just okay.

MAP10: MM2
MM1's was a mediocre 1994ish map, while MM2's was good.

MAP11: MM2
I liked MM2's more, but MM1's might be better in coop because the layout doesn't really make any sense in SP.

MAP12: MM2
MM2's is a neat walkway map. MM1's is one of the most annoying maps I have ever played.

I'll add more when I get further along in my MM1 replay.

Processingcontrol said:

I'll add more when I get further along in my MM1 replay.

Looking forward to it...

Memento Mori 1 is pretty good but I'm more attached to Memento Mori 2. Maybe it's the music that kicks it up a notch but i just like MM2 more.

Both rock arse.

Here is my personal opinion about map comparison. IMHO, 15 out of 32 slots have better maps in MM1, 15 in MM2, and two have approximately equally great levels in both wads.

As you can see, my preferences in the first episode are similar to Processingcontrol's ones.

1 -- MM2
2 -- MM1
3 -- MM2 (IMO MM1 MAP03 is nothing special and not even close to Worch's levels.)
4 -- MM1
5 -- MM1
6 -- MM1
7 -- MM2 (I find MM1 MAP07 very fun, but the one in MM2 is a really unordinary, realistic map with a powerful atmosphere.)
8 -- MM1
9 -- Equally good (I can understand why some people hate "Sabbath Sewer" with its crude, amateurish, confusing structures, but I still like this varied, interesting epic map with a lot of action.)
10 -- MM2 (Though MM1 MAP10 is not that bad, IMO.)
11 -- MM2
12 -- MM2
13 -- MM1
14 -- MM2 (Though MM1 MAP14 is superb, too.)
15 -- MM1
16 -- MM1
17 -- MM1
18 -- MM1 (One of my personal special favorites -- a large, colorful and hot masterpiece by a builder from Denmark. It seems that MAP18 is inspired by MAP28, or 28 by 18. But I like MM2's "Regulate" a lot, too.)
19 -- MM2
20 -- MM1, obviously
21 -- MM1 ("Sanctuary" is excellent in every aspect, but still I prefer "Twillight lab", which has more variety and a more fluid gameplay.)
22 -- MM2 (Though I like MM1 MAP22 a lot.)
23 -- MM2 (Same as above.)
24 -- MM1
25 -- MM2, obviously
26 -- MM2
27 -- MM2 (Though MM1 MAP27 is close.)
28 -- MM2 (Same as above. 28 is my most favorite slot in both wads.)
29 -- Equally great
30 -- MM1
31 -- MM2
32 -- MM1

As for "Secret Operation" levels, the first one is really poor, but the second one is decent.

Sabbath Sewers always struck me as a place that the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles would hang out. Just had to get that off my chest. :P

I personally associate Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with some other sewer maps, like HR2 MAP22.

The second Memento Mori did greater influence on me. The first was average by it's own, but had really good solutions here and there.

MM1's better maps are MAP09, MAP13, MAP14, MAP17, MAP21, MAP25 and MAP31 which I can say as more than affordable. Meanwhile, I couldn't stand most of the Episode 1 maps and neither MAP12, nor MAP23. "Scary 2" somehow indulgenced some shitty design as well.

MM2's MAP02, MAP03, MAP07, MAP10, MAP11, MAP12, MAP18, MAP19, MAP21, MAP22, MAP24, MAP25, MAP29 and both its secret maps were single masterpieces. However, levels such as MAP04, MAP06 or MAP26 (which is obviously seen to be thrown together with huge unbarren outdoors scenes, despite the fact that the "chalet" is quite well-designed in middle of the backyards field) are somehow still suggering that this WAD is made at the end of the "shitmap season" (1994-1996). However, at a rate of 3,7:6,3, obviously MM2 wins for me.

MORE!

Map13: MM1
MM2's was pretty forgettable while MM1's was pretty good.

Map14: MM2
Both are pretty good, but I liked MM2's more.

Map15: MM2
I love MM1's visual theme, but the gameplay is just okay, and it's too linear for a city map IMO, while MM2's was strong in all aspects.

Map31: MM2
Both are great, but I'll give it to MM2 because the layout isn't awkward in SP.

Map32: MM1
MM2's had a cool concept, but the gameplay bored me, while MM1's is great (diffiently my favorite of all the Klem maps).

Map16: MM2
MM1's was good, while MM2's was great.

Processingcontrol said:
Map15: MM2
I love MM1's visual theme, but the gameplay is just okay, and it's too linear for a city map IMO, while MM2's was strong in all aspects.

Thanks. I was quite fond of it at the time :) Though I think Requiem Map 11 was probably my best overall level.

Capellan said:

Though I think Requiem Map 11 was probably my best overall level.

Wow, didn't expect to meet you, Adam Windsor. I also think that your best creation is "Rats in the Walls". MM2 MAP15 is an interestingly designed and action-filled level, but Requiem level 11 is more polished, more elegant, with a really sweet atmosphere which feels like Duke3D in some ways.

Well, when CC4 is released you'll get to see my latest Doom 2 level (the first I've made since 2001, IIRC). Hopefully you'll enjoy it. :)