What makes a "flat" Wolf3D-style map fun?

Since I am right now close to finishing the first episode of a wad in the style of Wolf3D (it`s not a remake, but a completely new game just kept in the style of these early 3D games), I wondered what else I could maybe add to bring some more fun in the game.

I already have completely destructable furniture (which gives extra health points if you destroy it), moving walls that act as crushing traps, destroyable wall blocks, exploding barrels and, at least I hope so, smaller, more colourful maps that aren`t as maze-like as the ones in Wolf3D. I also try to make the enemies more interesting by having totally crazy ones, like an enemy that sits in a little flying saucer that chases you and explodes upon impact, all while laughing hysterically.
And of course, weapons that have, in my opinion, a better feel than the original ones. I added "shakiness" when you shoot or hit the walls with your fist to make you feel a bit more powerful.

What else would you like to see in a game that is restricted to flat levels with untextured floors and ceilings?

Nothing.

About right on the money.

In reply to the thread title, I'd say that tough and agile monsters are very good at making flat maps fun. Thanks to the map being pretty simple, monsters will have an easy time chasing you everywhere. In Wolfenstein 3d it worked, because fast and dangerous enemies (such as officers or zombies) would be placed in mazes and you could stumble into someone and be shot.

Interesting fights is one way to make it fun, but if you already have "crazy enemies" and "shakiness", it doesn't bode well on that front.

kristus said:

Nothing.

Going to have to resound what Kristus said. I think the only way to get people to enjoy a flat wolf3d style map would be to go back in the past and release something that would predate Doom.

Thanks for the replies.

@Kristus, Ptoing, Deathevokation
I remember seeing that the game 8 bit killer, which uses a rendering engine similiar to Wolfenstein, got pretty positive critics. I don`t think that Wolfenstein-like games are THAT bad after all. ;D
Or maybe it also is that nazis-lurking-in-a-castle-setting that bores many people so much now.

@printz
Yes, I think so too. I already added two very fast monsters a while ago and they spice the gameplay up quite a bit.

DeathevokatioN said:

Going to have to resound what Kristus said. I think the only way to get people to enjoy a flat wolf3d style map would be to go back in the past and release something that would predate Doom.

Are pits and vertigo that important to you?! You like confining monsters to ledges, falling and having to wait for lifts?

printz: So you are saying that height variation does not add anything to the fun and helps creating interesting environments for battle?

About 8-bit killer. I played it, I think it's shit. It looks nice, it has nice music and that's it. It is slow and boring.
I guess for some people something being "retro" and reminding them of their days when they played NES games is enough to be entertaining.

ptoing said:

printz: So you are saying that height variation does not add anything to the fun and helps creating interesting environments for battle?

No, but people seem prejudiced to dismiss maps simply because they're too horizontal.

I for one have nothing against horizontal maps, if they are done well. There were quite a few good maps in the 10 sectors wad which were quite horizontal.

The thing is, if stuff is flat and also otherwise very wolf3d (ortho walls and such) things can get boring fast. While flat maps can be fun I would say that generally if you took a flat map and edited it to be less flat chances are it would be more fun.

Only option to make it really interesting is the hardest - it has to have cult qualities.

What makes Wolfenstein great is the overall style and the history behind it. For it's time it was ass-tounding but if you play it today it just is a good classic game.
Last time I played the mazes were so long, winded and boring that I stopped playing it altogether.

If you can tweak the gameplay so that reaction and strategy have a large impact upon success than it could be great.

Otherwise it's a 50 second try and delete affair.

despite what everyone has said, I had a great deal of fun with Wolf3D, despite it's maze-like gameplay. I think a lot of it has to do with the extra-violent Nazi killing theme before it was beaten to death by all the WW2 games we have now. I also found navigating mazes to be a good brain exercise. The secrets however, are based purely on humping the right place at the right time.

What makes a "flat" Wolf3D-style map fun?

Ask the people who make Skulltag DM maps. They live by the mantra of "flat equals fun".

ptoing said:

The thing is, if stuff is flat and also otherwise very wolf3d (ortho walls and such) things can get boring fast. While flat maps can be fun I would say that generally if you took a flat map and edited it to be less flat chances are it would be more fun.

Yeah, if you make a Doom map that's a replica of Wolf3D style engine, well I have to question why you're even using the Doom engine in the first place? It might be okay as a pure exercise in WAD-making, but probably very few people will enjoy playing it.

But if you have a mostly flat map (even with untextured floors & ceilings), it could be fun to play if the layout is interesting (irregular, lots of angles), and there are some tiny bits of Doom engine features such as windows, shallow nukage pools, textured columns, switches, and maybe even a low ledge here and there.

For example, look at Return to Castle Wolfenstein, an old 1994 episode. The first level is simply boring to me (I was never into Wolf3D and actually prefered traditional 2D action games to it), but on E1M2 it starts to get fun even though it's mostly flat. Note that you'll need a v1.1 IWAD to patch with (because of some specific sprites), but the resulting charwolf.wad runs fine with later versions. There are several tools that can be used to downgrade your IWAD to previous versions (just make a backup first...)

On the other side of the coin, the Doom engine is also a poor choice for highly vertical maps. Well at least in vanilla flavor, since there is no mouselook (or even up/down keys like in Heretic & Hexen) and the vertical autoaim tends to not work consistenly. Heck, in some PWADs you can't even see the chaingunners that are firing at you because they're so far up or down from your position.

hex11 said:

For example, look at Return to Castle Wolfenstein, an old 1994 episode. The first level is simply boring to me (I was never into Wolf3D and actually prefered traditional 2D action games to it), but on E1M2 it starts to get fun even though it's mostly flat. Note that you'll need a v1.1 IWAD to patch with (because of some specific sprites), but the resulting charwolf.wad runs fine with later versions. There are several tools that can be used to downgrade your IWAD to previous versions (just make a backup first...)[b]

I didn't know RtCW was foreshadowed by a PWAD! Cool. As for the patching problem, fortunately the WAD has a "MAY" clause.