Excited!

I'm excited. Come share in my excitement.

Long have I been puzzling over why Dwango5.wad is still the most played DM map. Is it just because it's a classic? Is it because everyone knows it? Is it because the maps are so much fun to DM in?

I'm excited to know why. But I'm more excited that the potential of DM map making has barely been tapped. The problem is it's hard as heck to make a really good, fun, replayable DM map.

I'm excited to figure out how. But I need the help of the community.

Let's share ideas about what makes a good DM map. What is it, precisely, that makes map01 and dwango5 map01 so much fun and able to be played again and again and again?

I will now state what I think makes a good DM map as I understand it.

1. Size. It has to be the right size. Too big, no fighting. Too small, no living.

2. Simplicity. It has to be simple! Complex, confusing wads do NOT make for fun DM.

3. Item placement. I don't know anything about this except that it has to match the layout of the map.

4. Map layout. The map has to have a layout such that no weapon overpowers the rest. A good map is able to support all weapons, including BFG.

Well, that's all I know right now. Some other things that are fun are setting up maps to make fights over items, particularly weapons. But I don't think any of these types of maps endure. Back to the question. Why has Map01 and Dwango5 map01 endured so?

Looking forward to all your insights. Thank you for taking interest in my excitement. :-p

map01 is a simple, yet complex map. It's very easy to find your way around it, still a decent player who hasn't played it much before will usually get destroyed by a map01 veteran. It's quite unique in the way that you need to fight to stay alive the first few seconds after respawning. It's a really good map with every weapon having its use.

d5m1 is quite the opposite in many ways. You get a ssg from respawn, the layout is roughly circular and weapon balance is somewhat tilted towards ssg and bfg. It's still a good map, it's well known to most players and it features some tricks and tactics although not as much as in map01.

Neither of these maps are really good with more than 4 or so players though, the bfg is simply too powerful in d5m1 in such games and map01 doesn't have enough space. Other dwango5 maps are great for 5+ players though, d5m7 and d5m11 for example.

But the main reason why dwango5 is popular is of course because its well known to the players. It's much more fun to be able to just jump into the fray and get some frags than to spend a whole game trying to find your way around the map and get blasted by a bfg you cant find yourself etc...

map01 is a simple, yet complex map.

This is what makes a good map? Simple, but Complex! Of course, it was right there the whole time! With this knowledge -everyone- will be a great map maker. Thanks guys.

Map01 employed some features of Doom2 right at the start, some things that a veteran learned quickly, and a newbie learned last
Distances
Certain distances were employed to silence rockets, the shot from in the secret room where the shotgun is, out into the hallway, silences the rocket, as does the shot from bottom wall where plasma is, up to the top hallway, and the shot from respawn#1 to where chaingun is and Rockets from secret rocket room to chaingun
Silence tricks

Jumping off respawn#1 silences bfg and rockets
Firing backwards as you jump off respawn#1 and running into shotgun room a)silences bfg (vanilla Doom or silent bfg enabled zdaemon) and b)distance is such that you can fire as you jump off backwards, run into shotgun room and kill anyone in there with secondary bfg
Firing towards respawn#1 and running to cover hallway leading to plasma kills people in hallway and vice versa, firing towards plasma and running to face shelf at respawn#1
Wall running is 1st discovered here in the corridor from plasma up to the top hallway
Bumping weapons off plinths is learned with the plasma, it's so funny watching newbies going up in the lift "Oh I wonder where he is?" What's that noise? :)
And off course , control of respawn spots is learned here, controlling top of corridor is 30% of winning game on map01
There must be loads more just on this map01 I don't know or have forgot to mention

I never have had my sound on anyway. I play with a deaf ear.

JavaGuy said:

I never have had my sound on anyway. I play with a deaf ear.

hehe, then you're a 100% dead man on map01.

Not really. I've gotten first there once or twice. I don't play often though.

Well, in my excitement, I made a wad based upon/inspired by map01. I don't think it's as good as Map01 simply because I made it bigger. The green hallways ended up being exactly like the ones from map01 (unintentionally; I guess it seemed best sized) I dunno, it might be as fun as map01. I think it's too big tho. I will make a shrunkened version - see what happens.

I don't like map 1 too much because there's not really enough room to run around, and it's hard to kill your opponent from behind because there's only one hallway that leads into each room. D5M1 is so much better, except for the massive amount of SSGs.

one of the great things about map01 is that you can actually use skill to stay alive, not just kill. That's how people get 50-10 scores there, that simply wont happen on d5m1 or other ssg practice maps where anyone with some aim can get frags.

MAP01 is a good map. It's not perfect, but it's good. It's great for duel action, damn near perfect in fact. However, it's cramped for four.

To make a good DM map (which I've never done so don't ask) you need a proper size for the recommended amount of players, areas with places to hide or at least duck from incoming fire, and hallways that aren't too cramped or too wide open. Spacing is very important. From there you can layout your weapons/ammo and health/powerups.

Placing the DM starts in a proper place is very important too. This is one main area where MAP01 fails for more than two players. Instant spawnkills happen a lot and dilute the real gameplay scores with easy and sometimes accidental kills.

I have a great idea for a DM level right now, the composite ideas of 3 other levels that would blend together and make an excellent 4-8 player area.

It would be a wee bit slow paced, but not Quake slow mind you, for only four players but it would fucking shine for 8. It would also easily be my most complex map yet... and I was thinking about doing it for straight Boom but I ran into a few snags so far. I have nothing to show. Not a single fucking sector. I'm done rambling.

Everything is only because:

People are only interested in well known things.
If there is something new, they are afraid.

I just recently made a DM map (featured screenshot on this week's /newstuff :) ). It was the first time I ever made one, I don't really know how well it holds up to the other DM maps out there, but when I designed it I designed something that I thought I would enjoy playing (if I didn't enjoy it I probably wouldn't have uploaded it, so I'd say I succeeded in that goal).

I'm excited

Who isn't?

heh, ok this ones tricky, for the grand prize: from where did I steal:

"I'm excited."
"Who isn't?"

The problem with making deathmatch maps is that different people have different ideas of what makes a good deathmatch level. Basically, you have two DM classes: level-playfield (for lack of better word) and domination.

Domination DM levels can be seen in Quake/Quake3. Basically, the player is able to control / hold certain parts of the level (such as big weapon or armor spots), or able to establish running patterns in the level that maximises kills by maximising your equipment/health(eg. get RL/ammo, get armor, get health powerup, get quad damage, frag, get more RL ammo, get armor... etc). The levels usually have a few key spots where the (only) big weapon or big armor bonus resides. This also creates more opportunities for campers, as there are but a few places in the level where everyone wants (no: has) to come.

In my opinion, domination-style DM levels suck. A lot. Whoever designs these abominations also sucks :) On the other hand you have level-playfield deathmatch... this is where skill is actually involved.

Now, how to design a good level-playfield DM level. First, let's talk about the general concept:

(1) Level-playfield maps should have a good distribution of weapons and other items, and not just on key spots. If a player finds another player camping on a weapon spot, he can go and find the same weapon somewhere else on the level. This includes powerups.

(2) Level-playfield maps ought to be designed non-linear, meaning that every area ought to be reached by multiple routes.

(3) Never place different classes of equipment (eg. a weapon + health, or health + armor) in the same area. Keep the player moving between different areas to collect all the stuff he wants.

All this ensures that a player has to keep moving. Everyone in the game has a fair chance of getting a good weapon fairly soon after respawning. It also reduces the efficiency of campers, as there are several spots where a player can get a full arsenal health and equipment.

Point (1) and (3) really come into play when designing larger levels (3 or more players). For small levels it may not be possible to include more than one particular type of weapon or powerup (eg. two soulspheres). Often you can opt to place those items in difficult to reach spots while keeping the player vunerable to attack while retrieving that item.

Apart from these concepts, a designer ought to take the following into account as well:

(1) Be carefull not to get the player stuck on protruding architecture eg. while skimming through a hallway. Make sure a player has enough space to move around without bumping into things. Nothing more annoying than getting stuck all the time.

(2) You design for a particular range of players, and for a particular "player halflife", eg. a level for 8 players and 4 frags/minute has to be larger than a level intended for 2 players and the same frags/minute. Players who opt for a faster or slower frag speed may not like your level at all. Basically, you can't win them all :)

(3) People still prefer "simple" levels, without too much detail such as elaborate 100-sector hallways. A remnant from a time when connection speed / CPU speed was still an issue. Still, it's best not to overdo it.

(4) Keep the layout of your level simple. No confusing labyrinths or mazes. When making (semi-)symmetrical levels, add stuff (even if only different coloured walls) to let the player know exactly where he is.

(5) For what engine do you want to design? People often have their preferred port of choice, and a level-from-god designed for port X may suck in the eyes of those who prefer port Y. Again, you can't win them all :)

OK, enough rambling... things to do here.

Thank you for that, Mordeth. You made some good points and observations. I liked how you broke it up into two classes. I think you're right, level-playfield is more fun than domintation.

I've asked this before but didn't get too many responses. What are some of your favourite DM maps? If you list megawads, please mention which maps you like in the mega and why. Thank you.

my fav dm maps (for 1on1):

doom2:
map01, map11

dwango 5:
map01, map11, map14, map18

some good single level wads:
moo1k, judas23_

probably forgot lots of great maps.