New screenies of "Two Lords", my Heretic TC

So yeah... I've finally got some time to do more work on this, so I figured I'd show some newer screenshots of the progress thus far. Ignore the HUD, as it hasn't been changed much yet. Still a long way to go on this, but maybe I'll put out a demo wad after the first two areas are finished. Also, ignore the texture issues for now. :)

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-brutuses.png
Brutus, a dumb-as-rocks zombie brawler. These are sprites.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-deadthing1.png
http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-deadthing2.png
Dead things. Models this time. I hope to eventually replace most things with models.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-ice_cavern.png
A foggy, icy cavern deep underground.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-colossus1.png
The flames on the ground are also models.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-colossus2.png
This boss is massive and creates earthquakes when it walks.

Two Lords requires GZDOOM for models, DECORATE, 3D floors, and OpenGL effects. It's unlikely to run on any other source port.

Not a bad start at all, but the architecture looks really simple, and those zombie sprite's pants are way too saturated (with the color blue, not saturated with shit :P).

Looks like it could become an interesting project with a bit more work, and that boss looks rather interesting. :)

Also, the models look nice. The hand sprite looks like it needs replacement though.

Holy shit! Nice work man. Looks like its been fun. I just love seeing things like this... actually i've never seen anything like this.

Yeah, the architecture won't be winning any awards anytime soon. :) I'm not the best at that, though I've gotten better. Playing a lot of other pwads helps a lot, though some I find to be *too* crazy/busy with the architecture.

Brutus will probably get re-rendered... its pants are a bit of an eyesore, plus I'm not happy with its death animation anyways. The hand is almost a direct conversion from the original raycaster version so it's going to get an upgrade too... I think it needs to be bigger as well.

That boss is probably the most ambitious thing I've done so far. It was 80 frames just to get the thing moving, and it's almost 400 pixels tall. Now to finish its room...

The flame models look bad. You'd have better luck with particle-generators such as this one.


The problem of using models for flames is that flames aren't solid objects.


Otherwise, the fog seems excessive in the icy cavern -- it makes it look genuinely bad, as if the walls had no texture but a solid color.

And yeah, fix those blue pants.

I took your advice:

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlthc-newfire.png

Much better. Thanks for the tip. I'll get rid of the flame model right away.

I'll adjust the fog also... it is a bit thick, probably doesn't need to be so heavy. The texture for the wall doesn't have much color variance to start with so that probably doesn't help much either.

Just a quick little update... I re-rendered Brutus, it now has black pants instead of the blue ones. No new shots of that at the moment.

E1M1 has gotten a lot more fleshed out over the past couple of days, and some new models are going to be added to it shortly. That gigantic boss in the above shots is from E1M2. There was originally a huge wind tunnel between the boss and the ice cavern. I felt the wind tunnel ended up being rather stupid, so I removed it... but now there's a huge gap between the two areas. Rather than trying to move the boss room, I opted instead to build new areas between them.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-traintracks.png

The rails are made with 3D floors so they actually look (and shade) like real tracks. The wall to the left is going to open up into a tunnel, and the tracks will continue into it, leading to another area.

Just a few new shots for now.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlthc-newbrutus1.png
Fixed his pants. The blue really was too much.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlthc-newbrutus2.png
Up close and personal with Brutus.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlthc-cutscene.png
A part of one of the many between-level storyline cutscenes.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlthc-tower1.png
The start of the final level of Episode I. The hand is off a bit with the fullscreen HUD. :( Also, the Heretic metal bars texture will eventually be removed and replaced by linedef-based bars as with the rest of the game (it was just quicker for now to use the texture).

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlthc-tower2.png
Stairs to the second floor of the tower. This level features floor-over-floor gameplay, fully utilizing GZDOOM's 3D floors feature.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlthc-tower3.png
The top of the tower. The Episode I end boss will be up here.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlthc-tower4.png
Oops.

I'm going to put out a demo release once the first episode is finished. Might be six months from now, might be a year from now... not sure. Right now, much of the architecture is too simplistic for general consumption. :) The only real problem right now is the filesize... as it stands, twolords.pk3 is 103MB. Part of this is due to using PNG images for many of the cutscenes where JPG will suffice (not all can be substituted though), and using OGG where I could just use the original MOD files. The MD2 models take up a bit of space too, but I guess there's just no way around that detail, as resorting to sprites is out of the question for those objects.

I have to put this project aside for awhile to focus on other projects, but figured I'd put out just a couple last shots in case anyone was interested.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlthc-act02.png
Still needs a lot of detail, and I was messing around with the lights... but this area is coming along nicely.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlthc-prison1.png
This part of the prison got a lot of detail added, and I'm almost finished with it. Pay no mind to the texture alignment issues... I'm constantly adding new sectors so things are going out of alignment all the time.

Detail seems a little haphazard, and instant gratification "detail for the sake of detail" to me. That pillar in the middle of the last shot looks quite cool, although I think it'd be better if you tried focusing a little more on map layout, making height variation, making rooms that aren't squarish and spend less time on small scale detailing and you'd probably end up finding that your maps will start becoming more interesting.

I'd consult you to this page of mapping tips, but seems like the screenshots got taken down by the author. :/
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?postid=740338

Good luck with your project though. :)

Oh yeah, I read this post the other day while looking for some ACS tutorials. It seems like the whole server the images were hosted on is gone, as some of the links to esselfortium's articles posted on the zdoom wiki are likewise dead. :(

I appreciate any and all feedback, as I want to be a decent mapper and I want this to be a game that people enjoy, so thanks for your input. :)

It's a pleasure. :)

With adding detail I'd suggest asking yourself whether it adds to the atmosphere or to the scene your trying to portray, before putting it in. There is no need to reach any specific quota of detail.

Well if you want some inspiration with regards to great map design I'd suggest downloading and playing Alien Vendetta, if you haven't already: http://doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=11790

Amazingly enough, I have never downloaded AV. Bad me. :( Tried a bunch of other pwads though, to get ideas and see how others do things.

My original rooms were mostly square and boring with no real method to their madness... but figured that square rooms isn't ultimately bad as long as it makes sense. I have a preference for maps that are logical, for some reason... of course, "real life" is full of things that are boring and that no one would want to map in DOOM. :) So what I've been trying to do with this is to add logical detail... supports for the walls and ceilings, light sources, maybe some broken ceilings or stairs here and there. In the prison map, the second room has a couple of bricks lying on the ground, and if you look up, parts of the ceiling are missing. Right outside the first room is what looks like a broken padlock on the floor, which goes along with the intro story that tells of a demon that turned against its master and breaks the lock which bound the player character to his cell. Just little touches like that here and there to spruce things up a bit.

Of course, I know that all the detailing in the world doesn't mean jack if the layout is boring as frozen snot, so I try to do the layout first... get the basic geometry of the map down first, and then go back and fill in details. However, I tend to suck at detailing... and when I do layouts, again comes the need for logical, realistic designs... I figure it's because I imagine how the "master" would walk through his own map... if it's littered with traps and monster closets, would he fall victim to his own diabolical designs? It's hard to break that mentality, even for the sake of making things more interesting.

Great work! It looks like an early 3D game to me, which is very interesting. Some of the sprites and models need a bit of work but it looks really nice so far.

I've had to take a vacation from doing commercial work, as my wife is in recovery from major abdominal surgery. So, six weeks without any commercial coding gives me time to monkey around with this a bit more... thus I have. :)

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-apr11a.png
I've done a bit more work on ACT03 (The Mine Shaft), which is a mine-based level. Wooden supports to hold the whole place together, and torches to light the way. Pretty basic stuff, I reckon... not a lot of variety just yet...

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-apr11b.png
...until you get here. This is also part of ACT03, but it's at the top of the map. A new enemy "Night Terror" appears here. Originally, "Night Terror" was a lightning-spewing demon that could fly over water pools later in the game (ACT13), but I decided to bring him in earlier. Because he was moved closer to the beginning, I changed his attack from lightning to green energy (much less powerful), but made him +Stealth for a bit of extra challenge. This room has three of them, but they don't attack each other and they are extremely aggressive.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-apr11c.png
Did just a bit more work on ACT05 (Kricek Mansion), but this is presently the second-most underdeveloped map of Episode I. "Juju Zombie" still isn't quite finished, although I did finish its death animation.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-apr11d.png
http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-apr11e.png
http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-apr11f.png
http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-apr11g.png
http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-apr11h.png
http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-apr11i.png
http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-apr11j.png
This is where I've spent most of my time so far... ACT09 (Dark Cemetery), one of my favorite levels. Still working on the layout for this one, but it's shaping up nicely. The mission code is finished, and this is one of the only levels that has more than one mission (although the primary mission is still the one that determines the flow of the storyline). Dark Cemetery is filled with Skeletons; they are extremely fast and they come in large waves.

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-apr11k.png
ACT12 (Chamber Of Stars) has a very powerful boss called Sinistar. I gave a nod to the original DOOM's final boss with the Obituary text. :)

Wow, this is really starting to come together! Those new screens are awesome! Some of them are almost reminiscent of Thief for some reason. Keep up the good work!

Eponasoft said:
http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlhtc-colossus1.png
The flames on the ground are also models.

Using models for flames is a bit dodgy and they look like crap, it would be better to use True Color PNGs and particle spawners

Can't load nodtveidt.com :(

Also Eponasoft, may your wife have a speedy recovery.

sgt dopey said:

Using models for flames is a bit dodgy and they look like crap, it would be better to use True Color PNGs and particle spawners

I got rid of those quite some time ago:

http://www.nodtveidt.net/tlthc-newfire.png

as someone else in this thread also said they looked bad. :)

this is a good looking tc (and also the 1st) for heretic.... no wait, there's a mario tc somewhere so is the second tc... however looks nice, keep the work!

links aren't working for me, anyone else having this problem?

OK, see if these links work instead:

http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr11a.png
http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr11b.png
http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr11c.png
http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr11d.png
http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr11e.png
http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr11f.png
http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr11g.png
http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr11h.png
http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr11i.png
http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr11j.png
http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr11k.png

Hey, nice to see you here! I didn't realize that you were into Doom (and similar game) editing! I'll definitely have to try this out sometime! Based on your other work, it should be pretty good! :)

Heya Arjak! Didn't expect to see you 'round these parts either, heh. :) Well, you know me... I dabble in just about everything. I've momentarily put aside PCE coding to keep working on this... since wifey could need me at any moment, I need to be working on something that I can put down at any moment. Doing PCE work requires vast stretches of uninterrupted time, and that's just not gonna happen while she's recovering from surgery... so figured I'd get some more work done on this project. I just can't stand to go a day without working on something.

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

Also Eponasoft, may your wife have a speedy recovery.

Thank you very much. :) She is hanging in there. :)

Just one more screenie for now... I started work on ACT15 today, as it's another one of my favorite levels.

http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr13a.png

This part is actually based on a similar scene from the original Quake... the idea's been floating around in my head for some time now but I wanted to wait until I was sure I had enough skill to pull it off.

In case anyone's wondering... yeah, I jump around a lot when I do my maps. The reason being is that I tend to doodle a lot... if I get an idea, I will try to map it out when it comes to me. I might be doing something completely unrelated and be like "hey, this part of this level might look good if it did such-and-such" and so I try to map it like I envision it. Some people may not agree with this philosophy, but it works for me. :)

I took the time to check out the "worst wads" threads... and I'm making sure not to make such mistakes myself. :) Everything in my maps so far makes sense... there are no massive, empty sprawls, no non-obvious exits or teleports, and no ridiculously-out-of-place enemy battles. Also, I dissected TUTNT again, my favorite PWAD, to see how he did a lot of that complex stuff... some of it doesn't make a lot of sense but it gave me some hints and suggestions as to how to pull off some of the things that have been giving me trouble, such as slopes... seems it's way more effective to do slopes as linedef actions rather than slope Things, which is what I was doing before... and damn, they're a lot of work to really get correct...

A couple more screenshots and then I'm off of doing screenshots until the first release.

http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr22a.png
Added a mine cart model to the mix... it's what the train tracks are for. Needs some minor retexturing, but looks pretty decent. I was worried that GZDOOM wouldn't render it correctly, as it's a bit iffy on some models, but this one is rendered perfectly.

http://www.eponasoft.com/tlhtc-apr22b.png
Added the "boss bar", as in the original version. This is using the graphics found on Enjay's site... presumably this is LilWhiteMouse's graphics? Not sure... well, these are temporary for now until I implement custom graphics for it. I used the tri-color set, as that's how it was in the original game as well. The code is a mixture of LilWhiteMouse's code as well as some code borrowed from TUTNT... all of which I could have written from scratch, but figured "why reinvent the wheel".

I'm probably going to do an initial release of this in a couple of weeks so people can try it out. It will just be the first two levels for now. My wife should have recovered by then, and I'll have to go back to work on other stuff and will have to put this aside again.