"Shown" linedef setting sucks

I'm trying to get the automap to always display a few lines in a map I'm making. No brainer, right? Just use the "shown" linedef setting in DOOM Builder.

Problem is, it doesn't f*cking work. I've tried flipping all the linedefs to no avail. I looked everywhere on the 'net but everyone seems to say "the 'shown' tag makes a linedef always show up on the map, even if the player hasn't yet seen that portion of the map" and they don't go into any more detail than that. The f*ck is the point of this linedef setting is I have to jump through hoops to get it to work as it should?

It does work, and it's no brainer, right. Perhaps you accidentally also checked the attribute that makes a linedef always hidden?

If it is not so, you'd have to share the sample map I think.

Donce said:

It does work, and it's no brainer, right. Perhaps you accidentally also checked the attribute that makes a linedef always hidden?

If it is not so, you'd have to share the sample map I think.

No, I didn't check "hidden", or any other option that would negate "shown". And I have a feeling that the answer to my question is going to be unsatisfactory. I'm pretty sure someone is gonna come along and say that the sector whose lines I'm tagging as "shown" has to be a different height from everything else around it, otherwise even the "shown" tag won't do its job. My beef is that this behavior should be more clearly outlined in a FAQ or tutorial on level editing. I scoured the web and nobody talks about this. I seriously cannot be the first person to have this problem, just saying.

OK, the last time I remember seeing such linedefs in a map was when I played dwspd021.wad around this New Year. Check MAP04, the lines show on the map just as they should.

Donce said:

OK, the last time I remember seeing such linedefs in a map was when I played dwspd021.wad around this New Year. Check MAP04, the lines show on the map just as they should.

Thanks for the suggestion. I looked at it and the lines he tagged as "shown" are not only "impassible", but are outside of the play area altogether. He wanted them to show up so you could see the author's name(The Green Herring, or TGH) in the automap.

My linedefs are, by contrast, well inside the boundaries of the level. They consist of a small arrow pointing at an object that I want the player to take note of. So this "arrow sector" is inside of a larger sector but has the same floor and ceiling height as the sector it's inside of. Apparently for the record, checking the "shown" box on a linedef in this situation will do jackshit. You have to make the "arrow sector's" floor or ceiling height different for "shown" to do its job.

In summary, that's lame.

Vordakk said:

...In summary, that's lame.

Could you theoretically make the ceiling of the arrow sector 8 untis higher and leave the upper linedef textures undefined so that the flat bleeding trick will mask the height difference? Although I don't know if that will fix the issue, it's merely a speculation.

It might help if you also give the lines the Secret flag, which makes the automap treat 2-sided lines as 1-sided.

Rayzik said:

Could you theoretically make the ceiling of the arrow sector 8 untis higher and leave the upper linedef textures undefined so that the flat bleeding trick will mask the height difference? Although I don't know if that will fix the issue, it's merely a speculation.

Not a bad idea! I'm trying it right now!

EDIT: Ok, so there's two ways around it. The first is Rayzik's method, which employs the flat bleeding trick. This method is cool because it makes the lines show up on the map always, as well making them yellow in color(that is, using traditional doom automap). The second method is Essel's idea of tagging the lines "secret" as well as "shown". This way, the lines appear on the map always, but are red(again, using traditional doom automap).

For my applications, I personally prefer Rayzik's method, only because I believe yellow lines attract the player's attention more than red, especially in light of how my map is built.

Thanks a ton Essel and Rayzik!!!

My apologies for the bump ... so what causes lines that are flagged "shown" and have the same floor/ceiling height either side of the line not showing up in the automap ? Another good example is 10Sector map 28 line 363.

Is this a doom bug after all ?

The "shown" flag is actually an "already seen" flag. It doesn't affect how the line will look.

A two-sided line that does not mark a floor or ceiling height change will not be drawn. (Baring some other special circumstances, like the "secret" flag telling it to be drawn as a one-sided linedef.)

Gez said:

The "shown" flag is actually an "already seen" flag. It doesn't affect how the line will look.

But that is the issue. The line for some reason is NOT "already seen" or showing up ( rendering ) at the start of the level in the automap. Why ?

Gez said:

A two-sided line that does not mark a floor or ceiling height change will not be drawn. (Baring some other special circumstances, like the "secret" flag telling it to be drawn as a one-sided linedef.)

This is not the issue. I'm aware of this.

Linedefs that separate sectors with the same heights are not shown unless the "secret" flag is marked.

If the secret flag is not marked, the linedef will be drawn normally. Lower-only linedefs as light brown, and Upper-any linedefs as yellow. Linedefs without upper or lower walls are not drawn. The secret flags shows the linedef as red regardless of any of these conditions.

The "automap" (or "shown") flag does not colorize a linedef. It simple marks it as seen. The secret flag is the only linedef flag that colorizes a linedef in the automap. It's additional effect is that monsters cannot open doors marked with the "secret" flag. That's all the linedef flag does.

There really isn't anything more to it.

EarthQuake said:

Linedefs that separate sectors with the same heights are not shown unless the "secret" flag is marked.

If the secret flag is not marked, the linedef will be drawn normally. Lower-only linedefs as light brown, and Upper-any linedefs as yellow. Linedefs without upper or lower walls are not drawn. The secret flags shows the linedef as red regardless of any of these conditions.

The "automap" (or "shown") flag does not colorize a linedef. It simple marks it as seen. The secret flag is the only linedef flag that colorizes a linedef in the automap. It's additional effect is that monsters cannot open doors marked with the "secret" flag. That's all the linedef flag does.

There really isn't anything more to it.

So if I understand you correctly, lines that separate sectors with the same height, even if flagged "shown" or "automap", depending what editor is used, will still not be seen/shown/rendered on the computer map. If this is correct, I agree with the OP, it sucks and I consider it a Doom bug, pure and simple.

It's odd behavior that doesn't gel with the usual name of the flag according to map editors, but I don't know if it's a bug, really.

2-sided lines that have been seen (either for real by the player, or faked with this flag) aren't drawn on the automap if they aren't accompanied by a height change, which is why lighting sectors and similar don't appear on the map. With that in mind, the flag's behavior makes sense and is consistent with the automap's behavior. It's just the name that doesn't make sense. :P

esselfortium said:

It's odd behavior that doesn't gel with the usual name of the flag according to map editors, but I don't know if it's a bug, really.

2-sided lines that have been seen (either for real by the player, or faked with this flag) aren't drawn on the automap if they aren't accompanied by a height change, which is why lighting sectors and similar don't appear on the map. With that in mind, the flag's behavior makes sense and is consistent with the automap's behavior. It's just the name that doesn't make sense. :P

And that's because the name(s) used in editors were made up on the spot by people a long time ago who didn't have the source code available to them and had to take a stab in the dark at the true intention Carmack and pals had when creating the various bit flags.

You could say it's not a very well-thought-through feature, since it's pretty obvious it's meant to always make the lines show up on the automap, but won't do so in this one circumstance. The condition of being marked this way on the map at the start sort of ought to override the other conditions. But oh well.

hawkwind said:

So if I understand you correctly, lines that separate sectors with the same height, even if flagged "shown" or "automap", depending what editor is used, will still not be seen/shown/rendered on the computer map. If this is correct, I agree with the OP, it sucks and I consider it a Doom bug, pure and simple.

Lines such as this are pretty common, especially like when a floor completely lowers and disappears into the surrounding floor. The lines on the automap will also disappear, because there is no reason to still drawn those lines. There are also cases where lines that make up a lift will disappear from the automap when the lift is fully lowered. This indicates, from the automap perspective, that the player can now move onto the lift. It makes sense to me that it works this way.

The "shown" flag is unrelated to all of this though. Basically, every time you look at a linedef, it gets marked with this flag internally (correct me if I'm wrong), and that linedef will then appear in the automap. It just so happens that the flag can also be used when actually building the map, so some lines are already "discovered".

I wonder, if the shown flag is ever used on IWAD maps?