Have you ever considered using WADs with doom "unethical"?

I'm sure this is a weird, perhaps even stupid question to ask this wide community that is mainly dedicated to the modding of DOOM, but has anyone ever thought it, well, unethical to use WADs with a classic game?

Would you be hazy calling someone a doomer if, say, they only enjoy it if it has been modded to seem more modern such as what you would see with those silly 3D mods.

Like someone saying "oh I love the classic moby dick" only if having seen the movie for it.

There is no way the classics of Alien Vendetta, Hell Revealed, Memento Mori 1 & 2 and Requiem are in any way unethical.

This is just ridiculous.

I mean things that make it appear "flashy"

IE
Brutaldoom

I'll say this. I feel a bit guilty for pretty much refusing to play Doom in the traditional manner anymore. Anytime I play, I'm typically using the "Doom Metal" music wad, the PSX sound effects wad, and in most cases, Brutal Doom. That's like a triple sin right there. But you know what? I just don't get a kick out of playing it traditionally anymore.

yellowmadness54 said:

I mean things that make it appear "flashy"

Then you are not referring to a WAD but a something else.

Anyways, I wouldn't ever touch something that -complevel 2 couldn't handle but hay, anything to keep the game alive... and I do use Boom from time to time.

yellowmadness54 said:

Would you be hazy calling someone a doomer if, say, they only enjoy it if it has been modded to seem more modern such as what you would see with those silly 3D mods.

I'd tell that person that he plays the game for the wrong reasons, but that's it.

I don't consider it unethical. Id Software approved the modding scene, which means they're okay with people extending the lifetime of Doom for free.

yellowmadness54 said:

I'm sure this is a weird, perhaps even stupid question (...)

Yes, it is. Everybody knows, no serious doomer ever used a pwad. ;-)

I generally dislike mods that try to 'update' the gameplay to fit today's "OMG REALISTIC" FPS trend, because they tend to end up ruining the flow & balance of so many classic IWAD/PWAD maps... and can also look like shit while doing it; 35fps weapon animations made from shitty screencap rips are a cardinal sin of Doom modding, needlessly bloating a WAD/PK3 with several hundred images that all look near-enough the fucking same just so some idiot can pretend he's playing Call of Duty or something. LOL ARMY SOLDIERS.

Besides which, if I wanted this so-called 'modern' and 'realistic' gameplay, I'd play all those newfangled modern games and not fucking Doom; a game about a spaceman fighting the legions of Hell on the moons of Mars while running at 50mph and carrying several weapons and 1200 rounds of ammunition.

Tweaks, adjustments and other additions I really don't mind though, provided they're "Doom-ish" in function/behaviour and don't turn something like Memento Mori into one big noisy ugly fuckfest with 9001 sprites and decals all over the place at the end of every fight. Because that does look like shit.

More or less what Graf said. If you honestly, seriously can't appreciate the many ingenious aspects of the original Doom, you're playing the wrong game.

It's by definition not a question of ethics because playing the game, no matter in what modded or unmodded form you play it, does not harm anyone.

Sort of. I've got a friend who loves Doom to death, plays it pretty much exclusively, save for some Sega Genesis roms. However he plays Doom in Skulltag with OpenGL, a crosshair, mouselook (meaning up and down too), and a PSX sound wad. I think there was a point in my life where I had a mild disagreement with him that he wasn't playing the game 'the way it was meant to be played.'

Every once in a while I'll play DOOM.EXE with DOSBox using the default controls and original software rendering. That's not necessarily the way I prefer to play it. Ideally, I like to have autorun on, and I find crosshair's to be a necessity for deathmatches, and my preferred controls are a good bit different than Doom's defaults. I just do this because it makes me feel a little more "ethical" knowing that the original Doom settings aren't too distant from the way I normally play. I find many players who are used to mouseaiming, jumping, crouching changing weapons with the mouse wheel, customized controls and a different sound replacement pack may feel out of touch with the original game and find it really difficult to adapt to.

I'm sure this is a weird, perhaps even stupid question to ask this wide community that is mainly dedicated to the modding of DOOM, but has anyone ever thought it, well, unethical to use WADs with a classic game?

To ask that specific question would imply believing in concepts like purity, which besides being especially silly when talking about a video game, is unethical. So, no.

That said, I tend to avoid most gameplay or graphic tweaks simply because the quality isn't there, the one notable exception being source ports.

Whatever floats their boat. They're free to play Chex Quest with Brutal Doom if that amuses them.

Personally I don't care for pure gameplay mods, unless they are very subtle in their changes; but I'm fine with a map set which is designed around a gameplay mod.

Gez said:

Personally I don't care for pure gameplay mods [snip] but I'm fine with a map set which is designed around a gameplay mod.

This. Also what fraggle said.

However, I do play in ZDoom with always run on and full mouselook enabled (with a cross hair to help me out), so I suppose I'm missing the "pure" approach - I don't care though as I enjoy the game (more accurately, the very difficult standard of modern .WADs) more this way.

Maybe if the levels use a variant of the E#M# format.

I prefer mods that update or slightly enhances Doom, but it has to feel like Doom and not ruin the flow.

I dont like weapon replacements that try to look like modern FPS and use rubbish sprite replacements. Even ones from Doom 3 look bad in Doom, why because those weapons work differently to Dooms and so dont feel right at all.

Sounds are similar, I dont say no to replacement sounds, but how and why they are used has to be right. Often gunfire sounds from modern games feel out of place.

I total conversion is ok I guess, but often I find these stray away too much from Doom's feel and somehow do not work.

So basically I am all for mods, but it has to enhance or feel similar to Doom, after all thats why I play such as old game still, because its such great gameplay - YAY

Made a WAD about a month ago that takes all the midis and replaced them with the tracks they were inspired by.

my enjoyment of doom up 5x.

Mod like crazy, whatever makes you happy.

yellowmadness54 said:

... such as what you would see with those silly 3D mods.

I somehow feel that this thread has a little to do with my mod.

bcwood16 said:

I prefer mods that update or slightly enhances Doom, but it has to feel like Doom and not ruin the flow.

I dont like weapon replacements that try to look like modern FPS and use rubbish sprite replacements. Even ones from Doom 3 look bad in Doom, why because those weapons work differently to Dooms and so dont feel right at all.

Sounds are similar, I dont say no to replacement sounds, but how and why they are used has to be right. Often gunfire sounds from modern games feel out of place.

I total conversion is ok I guess, but often I find these stray away too much from Doom's feel and somehow do not work.

So basically I am all for mods, but it has to enhance or feel similar to Doom, after all thats why I play such as old game still, because its such great gameplay - YAY

Hmmm... You sound like you are part of the A-Team. Dirty Ascensionist!

------------------------

Anyways, due to the fact that I am the founder of the Doom Ascension Project it is against the laws of gravity, and other law-bound oddities (what?), for me to be against modding Doom. I am pro-modding and love to see other peoples projects and seeing them contribute to the creative side of the Doom community. For some of us, it is a much greater outlet to mod for Doom than it is to actually play it. It is just the nature of being a creative person.

That being said, although I love seeing videos of them I personally don't enjoy using mods that tinker with the original gameplay elements. Ascensions goal is to enhance/augment the visuals while leaving the way the game functions up to the user.

Giving options to players should be seen as a good thing. Modding Skyrim isn't seen as "Unethical". Not sure why there seems to be that sentiment lingering in the shadows of the Doom community.

Some people enjoy making an old game look like a new game. It has a charm it itself. Telling that person to just play new games is stupid because if that's what these people wanted, they would be playing those games.

There are other issues too, such as people who can't afford these newer games or a system that can run them. Having the same attitude towards these people is equally stupid.

Silly topic. The main point of games (usually) is to have fun. If they find it more fun to play only with mods, then that's it. They are becoming entertained and the game+mods are completely fullfilling their purpose.

DuckReconMajor said:

Some people enjoy making an old game look like a new game.

I do this with Quake 1. Darkplaces and some model/texture packs and it looks like it was done in the Doom 3 engine in the first place. I think it looks awesome and I have fun with it. I have nothing against people that would prefer the original Quake look and all I ask is that I don't get unreasonable flack for it.

Though... Doom tends to be the one "sacred" game to me. Playing PrBoom+ at 1920x1200, but with the original textures and all the OpenGL blurring stuff turned off... that's about as far as I go with Doom. I think it looks pretty damn good, myself, but I hold nothing against anyone that wants to use 3D models or high-res textures or whatnot.

I'd say that I feel a weird form of guilt when I think I'm playing a particular level set in a way not intended by the author. For example, I prefer to play vanilla level sets in a port that respects vanilla settings (Chocolate Doom, PrBoom-Plus, etc). This also means that I rarely use gameplay enhancement mods at all.

yellowmadness54 said:

Like someone saying "oh I love the classic moby dick" only if having seen the movie for it.

As weird and stupid as it seems, in my opinion you can't say you like "the classic moby dick" if you've only seen a movie adaptation.

I get where yellowmadness54 is coming from with his question.

Siggi said:

I'd say that I feel a weird form of guilt when I think I'm playing a particular level set in a way not intended by the author.

I don't.

Siggi said:

I get where yellowmadness54 is coming from with his question.

I don't.

for some reason I still feel a bit dirty looking up and down.

40oz said:

Every once in a while I'll play DOOM.EXE with DOSBox using the default controls and original software rendering. That's not necessarily the way I prefer to play it. Ideally, I like to have autorun on, and I find crosshair's to be a necessity for deathmatches, and my preferred controls are a good bit different than Doom's defaults. I just do this because it makes me feel a little more "ethical" knowing that the original Doom settings aren't too distant from the way I normally play. I find many players who are used to mouseaiming, jumping, crouching changing weapons with the mouse wheel, customized controls and a different sound replacement pack may feel out of touch with the original game and find it really difficult to adapt to.

I do the bastard thing where I set joy_speed to 29 for autorun, set mouse speed to around 45 in the .cfg, and use novert to make the mouse not register vertical movement.

Otherwise with PrBoom-Plus I rebind weapon keys to the keys surrounding WASD for faster access and leave mouse look set to a toggle on ALT, so I can enable it on those crazy maps with a lot of height.

Honestly? I really don't feel out of touch playing Doom that way. I can play the original engine and have a blast still.

The original control scheme I can't be bothered with anymore.

yellowmadness54 said:

I'm sure this is a weird, perhaps even stupid question to ask this wide community that is mainly dedicated to the modding of DOOM, but has anyone ever thought it, well, unethical to use WADs with a classic game?

Would you be hazy calling someone a doomer if, say, they only enjoy it if it has been modded to seem more modern such as what you would see with those silly 3D mods.

Like someone saying "oh I love the classic moby dick" only if having seen the movie for it.

Not really. Doom is equally "classic" for it's base content as it is for it's ability to be modified/added to.

There is no wrong way to play Doom if you enjoy it.
Ethics plays absolutely no part in it.

For some reason i can't stand various "enhancement" mods for any game, be it sound replacements, better/different textures, etc. I dunno what's with me, but i just hate them with all my passion. With doom this goes for things like "beautiful doom", openGL mode etc. I admit and know that it's weird but i can't control my emotion of hate towards them, it's just like cats.

My only problem with gameplay mods is that they're rarely subtle enough for me. I just want something that alters the monster's behaviour a little, makes them more aggressive, tweaks the health values a bit, you know? Like, same damn game but not as predictable for a long time player.
Instead I get stuff like AeOD and Hideous Destructor and so on, which aren't bad projects or anything, just not what I really want.

Rather stupidly, I was making something along these lines not long ago (it beefed up the low tier monsters, made Demons & Spectres move and attack way faster, randomised Mancubus fireball spread and a few other things - including a slightly upgraded arsenal so things wouldn't be too much tougher) for Eternity, but I baleeted it in the Great Virus Purge of 2012. So dumb.

Antroid said:

For some reason i can't stand various "enhancement" mods for any game, be it sound replacements, better/different textures, etc. I dunno what's with me, but i just hate them with all my passion. With doom this goes for things like "beautiful doom", openGL mode etc. I admit and know that it's weird but i can't control my emotion of hate towards them, it's just like cats.

OMG I'm the same way! With very few exception, any WAD that can't play in Vanilla Doom is something I just won't touch. I hate enhancement features for all games [except Vv HERETIC v1.3+], but it especially bugs me when Doom is involved.

Cats are awesome though.