"The world has always been multiculturalist" WTF?!??

I was arguing with someone about multiculture and why I did not want a multicultural society in Iceland (where I live) and after a short while the person said something that put a giant WTF expression on my face:

"fighting multiculturalism is stupid because it has always existed in Iceland".

The person then went on to claim that different cultures have influcened other cultures throughout history and that for this reason Iceland has always been multicultural.

This appears to be an argument that a considerable amount of pro-multiculturalists appear to use, but it makes no sense whatsoever to me.

I mean lets just use Iceland itself as an example shall we?

Iceland, in spite of having only about 350 thousand people, has its very own language that literaly nobody else speaks and it has even stayed more or less unchanged during the entire time. How is this even possible? Because we have been living on a god damn island more or less ISOLATED from the rest of the world for over a thousand years. And yet the person insists that we have always been multicultural because of "foreign influence". What a joke.

But the claim still doesn't make sense for people living on the mainland either. Was the British empire multiculturalist? With its imperalism and colonalism? Multiculturalism isn't just eating foreign food and listening to foreign music.

I mean this would be like if I insisted that capitalism has always been the dominant economic force on earth because people in the ancient times also used some form of money to buy or trade things.

Where does this idea of "multiculture has always existed" come from?

hardcore_gamer said:

Where does this idea of "multiculture has always existed" come from?

Multiculturalists.

Just out of curiosity, what's the reason you don't want other cultures in Iceland?

Ed said:

Multiculturalists.

Just out of curiosity, what's the reason you don't want other cultures in Iceland?

Because I don't like the idea of the nation being splintered into groups that each considers itself to be its own seperate people. I want a single unfied nation, not a collection of ethnic groups with nothing in common who may not even share the same pieces of lands because they would rather group them self's with others of their own kind.

Oh! And then there are the stupid idiots who hire foreign people who don't speak Icelandic into jobs where they are expected to treat other people.

Me: I will have 1 hot dog and a coke.

Guy working at the shop: Nie mam pojęcia, co to do cholery mówisz dobry sir??!?!?!

What about English? They should at least know that.

And don't ask "Why English???".

printz said:

What about English? They should at least know that.

And don't ask "Why English???".

And why can't I ask?

I am extremely sick of this "you can just speak english" bullshit for 2 reasons:

1. I should not have to speak anything else then Icelandic when buying something in my own country.

2. The idea that most people actually know english in the first place is crap. There are vast amounts of people who don't know english. Just today I met some German guy while shopping who wanted my help, and I wasn't able to help him because he only spoke German.

inb4 Maes

Multiculturalism really only works in the government is secular and stays secular.

Virtually along the entire Earth, everyone has interacted with everyone else at some point in time. So the statement is generally true that the world is multicultural in a sense. Because you want a nice Coca Cola, well that's American and if you don't like being multicultural then don't drink Coke anymore. Same goes for hotdogs.

hardcore_gamer said:

I was arguing with someone about multiculture and why I did not want a multicultural society in Iceland (where I live)

If you don't want a multicultural Iceland, here's what you do:

• Disconnect all internet, telephony, and satellite connections to outside of the island.
  
• Mine every beach so that if someone invades they get blown up.
  
• Build a giant wall around every single beach to keep outsiders out.
  
• Build Anti-Aircraft guns (from scratch) and shoot down Icelandic Passengers trying to leave and foriegn invaders from coming in.
  
• Ban the use of English.
  
• Go back to Viking measurements.
  
• Ship out anyone who was has not been generationally from Island since the past 10 generations.
  
• Ban foreign foods (this means no more Cokes and no more hot dogs!)
  
• Don't import and export, become self sustaining.
  
• Destroy all books and media that did not originate from Iceland or was influenced by non-Icelandic sources.
  
• Destroy all objects not made in Iceland. (This includes your American, European, etc. imports of sports cars, planes, buses, trains, etc.)
  
• Destroy plants and animals not originally native to Iceland.
  

*Edit* GhostlyDeath pretty much beat me to it.

I like the multiculturalism debate. It really opened up a lot of doors for closet racists. You can't hate Puerto Ricans for their skin color, that would be racist! But now, you can hate their food, music, language, clothes, traditions, holidays and everything that makes up their culture and really wear it on your sleeve without catching too much flak.

The entire debate is really stupid. As if every culture outside of the deepest tribes of the Amazon hasn't been usurped over the past 100 years.

Culture is global, sorry about you're sacred Icelandic dirt, but it's subject to the same change that's happening all over the world. My question is, what are you doing personally to preserve your culture? What is your endgame? Turn the clocks back, to how far? And how would you keep it there? Would you reject any and all innovations / technological advancements that are non-Icelandic that happened within the past 1,000 years?

Sounds like a blast, man.

GhostlyDeath said:

Virtually along the entire Earth, everyone has interacted with everyone else at some point in time. So the statement is generally true that the world is multicultural in a sense. Because you want a nice Coca Cola, well that's American and if you don't like being multicultural then don't drink Coke anymore. Same goes for hotdogs.



If you don't want a multicultural Iceland, here's what you do:

• Disconnect all internet, telephony, and satellite connections to outside of the island.
  
• Mine every beach so that if someone invades they get blown up.
  
• Build a giant wall around every single beach to keep outsiders out.
  
• Build Anti-Aircraft guns (from scratch) and shoot down Icelandic Passengers trying to leave and foriegn invaders from coming in.
  
• Ban the use of English.
  
• Go back to Viking measurements.
  
• Ship out anyone who was has not been generationally from Island since the past 10 generations.
  
• Ban foreign foods (this means no more Cokes and no more hot dogs!)
  
• Don't import and export, become self sustaining.
  
• Destroy all books and media that did not originate from Iceland or was influenced by non-Icelandic sources.
  
• Destroy all objects not made in Iceland. (This includes your American, European, etc. imports of sports cars, planes, buses, trains, etc.)
  
• Destroy plants and animals not originally native to Iceland.
  

See, this is exactly the kind of bullshit strawman that multiculturalists keep using.

Knowing how to speak other languages or eating foreign food is not multiculture. Simply eating Pizza does not magically make me part-Italian.

I don't suppose you think the British empire was multiculturalist even in spite of all of the cultural imperialism simply because they imported tea from India and obtained a liking to it?

So basically 90% of how you live your life on a daily basis has nothing to do with your culture? What exactly are you trying to preserve? You want everyone else in your country to submit to a monocultualist view point so you can go to Burger King and order a Coke without too much trouble?

Speaking with such conservative absolution is completely retarded. Tell me about the other races of human being that you've seen from conception to completion and what was the best course of action for their survival and overall well being.

Ed said:

What exactly are you trying to preserve?

National unity for one thing. How is the nation suppose to be on the same page and have anything that even remotely looks like national solidarity if everybody just looks at them self's as individuals and nothing else?

I know you guys generally frown upon image replies, but I typed up at least three different replies, before realizing that one of my favourite comics summed it all up pretty well:

EDIT: url

Seriously, what's so bad about other cultures, and why do you believe your life would better if you were free of their influence? Genuine question.

schwerpunk said:

strawman image about flowers

In Iran woman can be stoned to death for having sex in the wrong way, while in Iceland we have one of the most liberal sex cultures in the world. Considering that, I fail to see what is wrong with being thankful about the fact that I was born in the Icelandic flower pot and not the one from Iran.

Culture isn't just created, it is also maintained. I want to maintain the fact that Iceland is a peaceful place with liberal sex and not draconian death penalties where woman are stoned.

Right, and I don't think any reasonable person would want to import that little gem of wisdom (re: Islamic puritanism)

I never claimed that all cultural 'pots' (let's just call them countries) were equal. No one has claimed that. Stop strawmanning (I think we can stop using this term as well).

Moving on: By what you just said, it sounds like you're mainly against importing bad elements of a culture, but in your original post, you seemed to be arguing that countries would be better off if their cultures remained isolated.

(Correct me if I'm wrong in any of these stages.)

Wouldn't Iran be better off with a more liberal view of sex, such as in Iceland, though? I think it's almost certain that they would be. Now, along that same train of thought, would you concede that there's also a chance that Icelandic culture might also benefit from importing some elements of other cultures?

Elements such as cuisine, for example. Everyone benefits there!

P.S. I know the flower comic is flippant, but I still maintain that there's a good chance you're just 'trolling.'

P.P.S. I've noticed we've moved on from the original topic, which was that Iceland has traditionally been free of foreign cultural influence, and on to the topic of how some cultures are toxic. I believe this shift betrays a bias on your part that may have lead to faulty reasoning in the original topic. I'd recommend thinking it over. (God damned longest P.P.S. ever, sorry...)

hardcore_gamer said:

The idea that most people actually know english in the first place is crap. There are vast amounts of people who don't know english.

Nonsense. It was proven beyond reasonable doubt in the 19th century that everyone - including the remotest tribes of savages - understood English, though a certain amount of shouting and gesticulating was often required before they'd condescend to do as they were told.

hardcore_gamer said:

Because I don't like the idea of the nation being splintered into groups that each considers itself to be its own seperate people. I want a single unfied nation, not a collection of ethnic groups with nothing in common who may not even share the same pieces of lands because they would rather group them self's with others of their own kind.

You and I have very different concepts of multiculturalism. To me, multiculturalism is about NOT having those boundaries... it's about different cultures intermingling. By enforcing one uniform culture, you promote the idea that anyone who's different should keep to themselves.

I blame foreigners. They -- and their descendants -- should be booted out of Iceland!

GreyGhost said:
Nonsense. It was proven beyond reasonable doubt in the 19th century that everyone - including the remotest tribes of savages - understood English, though a certain amount of shouting and gesticulating was often required before they'd condescend to do as they were told.

Why else would the Bible be written in English?

hardcore_gamer said:

Me: I will have 1 hot dog and a coke.

Guy working at the shop: Nie mam pojęcia, co to do cholery mówisz dobry sir??!?!?!

That made my day :D

Nationalism / strong national identity is just excess baggage for the individual. I can only see the debate from one of two ways; Monoculturalism is breaking down because it has to break down in order for us to evolve as a species. Or, eradication of the rival tribe is an inevitable endgame, either through warfare or assimilation. It's a bit extreme, but in order for either side of the mono/multicultural argument to be 100% true, than either one would have to be a principle of nature and it's intentions for the human race.

What can't be denied is, it's happening. And the only thing to do to counter something like that is usually extreme and almost always considered a pretty dick move.

My opinion is leaning more towards assimilation and adaptation to our growth into a technologically advanced civilization. I think humans are a little bit in an awkward phase right now and have a lot of evolutionary baggage to shed (tribalism). I'm not 100% firm in that belief, but I think it's a fascinating subject and would look at any compelling arguments for indefinite sustainability of a culture and it's benefits. To me, the Amish come to mind.

GhostlyDeath said:

Virtually along the entire Earth, everyone has interacted with everyone else at some point in time. So the statement is generally true that the world is multicultural in a sense. Because you want a nice Coca Cola, well that's American and if you don't like being multicultural then don't drink Coke anymore. Same goes for hotdogs.

There's quite a difference between the "I like coke just like the next man " and the "I put on beads, sandals and an Andean cap and sing 'Clandestino' while patting my dirty immigrant friends in the butt" kind of multiculturalism.

Most people DO like the coke but want no "dirty immigrants" in their house ;-)

Other example: if "multiculturalism" means that lusty, hot, blond MILFS from Northern Europe come to my country for a "tune up" and leave some dough behind, suuuuure, who wouldn't want that ;-) (so essentially this boils down to good old tourism). OTOH, nobody wants masses of penniless, brown, smelly AND muslim jobless beggars, windshield washers and criminals. See the difference?

You're on an English-speaking forum interacting with people from all corners of the world. Why not drop the hypocrisy and post everything in your native language, or not post here at all, if you're adamant that your culture is being destroyed by foreign influences?

But I'm having trouble figuring out what your argument against multiculturalism really is, besides the language thing. You'd be on a slightly better footing if you complained that foreigners are taking all the (non-professional, "unskilled") jobs that should go to Icelanders, and preferably had some numbers to support your gripe. A small island(s) like Iceland has only so many resources to go around, and "first come first serve". But this doesn't appear to be your complaint at all, and you have an issue with multiculturalism without explaining what it is you don't like about it.

So long as people are still speaking the Icelandic language and you still eat hákarl, what's the problem? As has been pointed out in this thread already, not many of us can claim we're "pure" *insert nationalism*. Most of us are mongrels.

New world order (Bahá'í)

Some of the principles outlined in the New World Order include

universal peace;
the unity of religion;
the setting up a world government which could enact laws required to satisfy the needs of all people;
an elected world parliament;
a binding world tribunal;
a world police force;
a universal bill of human rights;
the universal right to education;
the setting up of an auxiliary universal language;
the continued diversity of culture;
a system of world commerce through the establishment of an equitable economic system where the economic security of the individual is assured;[2][3]
elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty.

Major flaw with the argument stating that the British Empire wasn't multicultural:

Britain was originally populated exclusively with Celtic tribes - all of which had different sub-cultures and had developed in relative isolation to eachother. Then, as time passed, they intermingled, warred and made alliances. Then the Romans turned up. This eventually led to a roughly united Britian, which was still soundly defeated by the well-organised Romans, many of whom settled in time and contributed to the already diversifying culture of Britain. So we've already got Romans (ancient Italians) and Celts/Picts/whatever (ancient Irish and Scots, effectively) contributing. Then, in time, came the Saxons (ancient Germans, I believe) and Vikings (ancient Norweigens) which in turn all got owned by the Normans (ancient French). At this stage most of ancient Europe is mixed into Britain, which is why there's such varied heights, skin tones and hair/eye colours (and combinations) in amongst "native" Brits.

Yes, by the time we were building an empire it was us taking our culture and enforcing it on others, but we did take from other cultures as well (curries are so popular here because of our time spent in India) - plus a lot of our architecture and some of our court behaviour was French inspired, as they were deemed the fashionable ones (when we weren't at war). Chrisianity certainly isn't native to Britian either, as that was introduced by the Romans, who in turn had been put on to it by the proto-Christian Jews that they'd been busily persecuting beforehand.

There's probably a lot more to it too - but I think I've proven my point that Britain is in no way a monoculture.

hardcore_gamer said:

Where does this idea of "multiculture has always existed" come from?

Uh....since humans have had feet?

I think what hardcore_gamer is trying to say (but is afraid to be labeled a fascist) is that he wants no dirty immigrants into his homeland. Call me fascist if you wish, but I find nothing wrong with that: it's a feeling which is on the rise pretty much everywhere, particularly in the Western world and with this ongoing economic crisis.

In general, the better the economy, the more a society appears tolerant but it's an illusion: as soon as (enough) shit hits the fan, the real feeling comes afloat, a really simple reasoning too:

so "globalization" forces you to be hyper-competitive with Indian and Baglandeshi unskilled workers that work for a dime or hyperactive AZN coders that have no life? Fuck that, I'm closing the borders, and focus my economy on MY OWN people. I can live without their stupid iPods, ya know. At least for a while, then we'll see.

^ I think there's a term "economic nationalism" for the above, but then again I'm no economist.

Some cultures (like the British or Dutch) are simply better at concealing their skin-deep disgust/intolerance for immigrants and that's very dependent on how well the economy goes, others (like the Japanese or Korean) have such a stick-up-the-ass "inscrutable" nationalist attitude about it that it makes even the "stiff upper lip" of Britons appear like a friendly smile, and others (like most of Islamic countries) are openly against strangers, which are only tolerated under very special circumstances (why do you think engineering contractors in the various Emirates and Saudi Arabia are required to build walled communities for their foreign staff?).

So, was the world ever "multiculturalist" in the sense that several cultures coexisted peacefully as peers? Probably never. There has always been conflict and value dissonance however, and there are only very few enclaves of cultural homogeneity, indicating that enough diversity has survived despite all the cruelty.

Maes said:

I think what hardcore_gamer is trying to say (but is afraid to be labeled a fascist) is that he wants no dirty immigrants into his homeland. Call me fascist if you wish, but I find nothing wrong with that: it's a feeling which is on the rise pretty much everywhere, particularly in the Western world and with this ongoing economic crisis.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14696120/MURICA.jpg

This looks like a true victim of an ongoing economic crisis.

Best part? It's a Toyota.

Csonicgo said:

This looks like a true victim of an ongoing economic crisis

That looks more like a gun nut/merc wannabe who has way too much free time on his hands and has probably tatooed his dick to look like Stars & Stripes. At least on his "manifesto" he makes no mention of purely economic immigration/pressures but "plays" on the usual terror-mongering (Islamist terrorists will kill us etc.) and some "misled youth" stereotypes (though I could agree with him on that point). I wonder how he avoided anti-ZOG references.

Sorry, but while that's also a form of extreme nationalism, it's also of the "ONLY IN AMERICA!" variety :-p It really wouldn't work elsewhere, at least not formulated in this way.

If you showed me a photo of e.g. protesting blue-collar workers because some factory has closed down due to outsourcing and thus sparking some anti-global protest, that would be more like it.

Maes said:

If you showed me a photo of e.g. protesting blue-collar workers because some factory has closed down due to outsourcing and thus sparking some anti-global protest, that would be more like it.

That would be the centre-right American Democratic Party to a T. In the United States, they're considered "left" but that's hardly the case.

Just this 3 July:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/adwatch-obama-campaign-steps-up-attack-on-romney-outsourcing-jobs-during-tenure-at-bain/2012/07/03/gJQA8YdJLW_story.html

KEY IMAGES: Static photos of Mitt Romney and a shuttered factory building, superimposed with a Washington Post headline that says Bain Capital, the private equity firm Romney co-founded, “invested in companies that moved jobs overseas.” Those give way to video of President Barack Obama visiting an auto plant and speaking to workers.

And this is the liberal candidate.

hardcore_gamer said:

Me: I will have 1 hot dog and a coke.

Guy working at the shop: Nie mam pojęcia, co to do cholery mówisz dobry sir??!?!?!

Are hot dogs and Coca Cola products of Iceland or horrifying examples of multiculturalism?

geekmarine said:

You and I have very different concepts of multiculturalism. To me, multiculturalism is about NOT having those boundaries... it's about different cultures intermingling. By enforcing one uniform culture, you promote the idea that anyone who's different should keep to themselves.

No, what you describe is what multiculturalism CLAIMS to be. What I described is multiculturalism in real life in actual practice.

I could argue that communism isn't so bad because its about a peaceful world where everyone is equal and free, but that would not make communism smart. Like communism multiculturalism fails because even though it may be based on a nice ideal it doesn't work in reality and conflicts with human nature.

jute said:

Are hot dogs and Coca Cola products of Iceland or horrifying examples of multiculturalism?

Neither, its a part of trade and consumerism. AKA capitalism.