Doom 2 In Name Only - Now (supsiciously) on a load of gaming articles

glenzinho said:

@Cannonball: when I try to download Map 12, I get this warning. Can you upload it elsewhere?

I got this too with Nirvana, though CB claimed it was fine.
Try again later, it works :P I expect the reason for this is that one of the randomised adverts on this site is dodgy.

Working on the blue key path for MAP22. That MARBFAC3 that WAS there is now a BIGDOOR7, the opening of which I totally stole from Plutonia MAP13.
Hopefully, this part will become the darkest section of the map yet. Not including the Spider Chamber.

cannonball said:

Third time lucky, lets see if speedyshare will not either screw me over by forcing me to pay or trys to set fire to other peoples computers :P
http://www.speedyshare.com/zTNDp/cbfactory.wad

That one worked, cheers!

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/2355/thefactory.png
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3355/tenements.png
*IMAGE SIZES TOO BIG TO POST IN IMG TAGS - PLEASE LEARN HOW TO GENERATE SMALLER IMAGES OR ELSE HOW TO RESIZE THEM*

Edit to show idea for MAP22 switch to lower the pillars by blue key:

In Greek mythology, the Labyrinth (λαβύρινθος) was an elaborate structure designed and built by the legendary artificer Daedalus for King Minos of Crete at Knossos. Its function was to hold the Minotaur, a mythical creature that was half man and half bull and was eventually killed by the Athenian hero Theseus. Daedalus had so cunningly made the Labyrinth that he could barely escape it after he built it.

Well, the heroes and minotaurs aren't exactly hard to come by in Doom...

Eris Falling said:

I didn't find the Cyberdemon

Heh, you must have done some sort of Houdini trick on the big lad. Either that or you skipped the linedef in the exit area or somehow i flagged him on uv only or something like that :P
Edit - Yay more cheesy captions

I want to test my wad on chocolate doom, but i dont know how to add the second texture wad "mudwater.wad"

joe-ilya said:

I want to test my wad on chocolate doom, but i dont know how to add the second texture wad "mudwater.wad"

If you are using doombuilder2 then you need both the doom2.wad and mudwater.wad in your resources section. Then you can simply use the test function in doombuilder 2 which will play the wad with the texture resource as well.

cannonball said:

Heh, you must have done some sort of Houdini trick on the big lad. Either that or you skipped the linedef in the exit area or somehow i flagged him on uv only or something like that :P
Edit - Yay more cheesy captions

No, he's on all difficulties, checked with the 'Kill Cyberdemon' command :P

Joe-Ilya: In the command line parameter add this to the end instead:

-merge gotcha.wad mudwater.wad

Eris Falling said:

Joe-Ilya: In the command line parameter add this to the end instead:

-merge gotcha.wad mudwater.wad

EDIT: Damn it cannonball

Your explanation is better :)
Anyway assuming joe has doombuilder 2 or is he using some programme that even Capellan would only reminisce about :p

Eris Falling said:

• MAP25: Bloodfalls - Possibly taken by Obsidian What's happening with this map?

I´ve got a strong idea for this if nothing is going on with it at the moment, although I wouldn´t be commencing work on it for at least a week or two.

glenzinho said:

I´ve got a strong idea for this if nothing is going on with it at the moment, although I wouldn´t be commencing work on it for at least a week or two.

Well
Obsidian said he would try to contribute at least one map to this, so that's either MAP09 or MAP25.
If you take MAP25, then he can do MAP09, which is fine with Capellan.

Geez, The Pit was first map to be claimed, could be the last one to be finished.

So by the looks of things, I can mark you down for it. Sorted I think...

MAP28 is the only other one that bugs me. Because either Ella Guro or Antroid will be doing that map, and well, it's not going to be Ella is it...but I've heard nothing from Antroid either.

cannonball said:
Anyway assuming joe has doombuilder 2 or is he using some programme that even Capellan would only reminisce about :p

Batch files are where it's at!

i fixed some bugs

http://www.mediafire.com/?iakfxiw7ad153qw

I'm working on the cavern which leads into the labyrinth. This seemed like a neat idea, but with the obvious error occurring:

1600px wide. 4MB
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/5687/itsonearlyworked.png

Maybe I'll just place them somewhere else.

joe-ilya said:

i fixed some bugs

http://www.mediafire.com/?iakfxiw7ad153qw

I don't want to sound harsh or anything, but you should definitely trash this map. It'd be a lot easier to make a new level than to fix the mountain of problems with this one.

Actually, since you're clearly a beginner, I think you should make some small solo maps before joining a big project like this one. Working independently could help you develop your skills without limitiation.

Processingcontrol said:

I don't want to sound harsh or anything, but you should definitely trash this map. It'd be a lot easier to make a new level than to fix the mountain of problems with this one.

Actually, since you're clearly a beginner, I think you should make some small solo maps before joining a big project like this one. Working independently could help you develop your skills without limitiation.

I'm afraid to say I have to agree with this, whilst the start is a lot better, this only covers 5% of the overall map.
There are so many problems with this map but the construction is the most prominent.

Processingcontrol said:

I don't want to sound harsh or anything, but you should definitely trash this map. It'd be a lot easier to make a new level than to fix the mountain of problems with this one.

Actually, since you're clearly a beginner, I think you should make some small solo maps before joining a big project like this one. Working independently could help you develop your skills without limitiation.

theres only one bug unfixeble bug when it says no more visplanes

what are visplanes?

it happens when i take the soulsphere and go backwards

joe-ilya said:

what are visplanes?

Hardass time: You really shouldn't be mapping for a vanilla project if you don't know the answer to this question. This is rather like trying to contribute a map to a (limit-removing) community project without knowing what sectors are.

Xaser said:

Hardass time: You really shouldn't be mapping for a vanilla project if you don't know the answer to this question. This is rather like trying to contribute a map to a (limit-removing) community project without knowing what sectors are.

this bug apears and disapears

and i tested the whole level and there werent any bugs

exept for some small rainbow steps

so ill just remove this secret

Xaser said:

Hardass time: You really shouldn't be mapping for a vanilla project if you don't know the answer to this question. This is rather like trying to contribute a map to a (limit-removing) community project without knowing what sectors are.

You're saying that like it's some kind of base vital concept that is a prerequisite to vanilla Doom mapping. Before Boom came out, everyone made vDoom maps, okay? Not everyone knew what visplanes are, but they didn't make maps that would crash. I hate when people reply like this.

"Visplanes" mean absolutely nothing to the mapper, they are an internal engine feature.

It's "Visplane Overflow" which one needs to be aware of. They happen if you overdetail your map. Simply put, joe-ilya should avoid putting more detail than necessary in his vanilla Doom map.

Made a (humble) start. Apart from laundry and taking out the trash, this is all I plan to do today. Not using chocorenderlimits, I started with vanilla mapping (and working around VPO), I can do this. ;)

ComicMischief said:

STOP QUOTING IMAGES, DUMBASS

Made a (humble) start. Apart from laundry and taking out the trash, this is all I plan to do today. Not using chocorenderlimits, I started with vanilla mapping (and working around VPO), I can do this. ;)

To me, it looks like you've kept the same idea as me, but you're doing it better ;) Can I have MAP30 yet? :D

Looks like Joe-Ilya got Xasered too. While I agree with printz that the Xaser's comment was slightly harsh, it does help a hell of a lot if you know about visplane and drawseg limits. Otherwise, you will do what Joe-ilya has done, and break them unknowingly, and then you have the same thing as what Joseph Lord had, 8 versions trying to make the map within vanilla limits.
The difference is however, that Joseph Lord had created a pretty good map to begin with. I must confess I haven't played the compatible version, but MAP20 just doesn't fit the standards we're trying for here. I would agree with PC, that working on solo mapping projects could help a lot.

I also didn't make anything original before this project. All I did was a Knee-Deep in the Dead conversion for DN3D back in July, which I was gonna release last night but it seems bugged to fuck for some reason.
I was lucky though, Dead Simple hadn't been claimed, probably because everyone else was above that standard.
Check out the original thread, around page 10 or something, I put up V3.0.0 of the map, and look at the feedback ;)
It does prove that with enough work, a map can be made into something pretty cool (I hope?!) but the current version of MAP07 is like the twentieth sodding update, 3 of which were major layout alterations, and it's a very small map, as opposed to MAP20 which is medium sized.

I didn't say this originally, because I hoped someone else would (thanks PC), but it would be a lot easier for everyone, including the author, if the current MAP20 was just removed, and it was given to a more experienced mapper.

Anyway, rambling over.

@comicmischief, not bad, looking forward to how this develops.
@corsair, late response to your pictures. People mentioned that the shots are a little bland. But I my veiw the visuals are very clean and the textures chosen look pretty solid. Also the blandness can be solved very quickly and easily so I'm am not concerned one bit.
Also cheeky ask of what others thought of The Factory :P

added: ammution , health , armor and difficulty

and some fixed crap again

anyways the link : http://www.mediafire.com/?k5aalsgavkm8pur

printz said:

You're saying that like it's some kind of base vital concept that is a prerequisite to vanilla Doom mapping. Before Boom came out, everyone made vDoom maps, okay? Not everyone knew what visplanes are, but they didn't make maps that would crash. I hate when people reply like this.

"Visplanes" mean absolutely nothing to the mapper, they are an internal engine feature.

It's "Visplane Overflow" which one needs to be aware of. They happen if you overdetail your map. Simply put, joe-ilya should avoid putting more detail than necessary in his vanilla Doom map.

You really ought to pay more attention to the actual discussion taking place before responding to a single post out of context. The primary reason I'm calling this out is because his map already VPOs, and the history of the thread shows that he also hadn't been testing the wad in vanilla at all, which is two big strikes. The key isn't knowledge of the textbook definition of "visplane", but knowledge of how to apply the knowledge of what it is and what the limits are in order to make a map that won't crash the engine. I was hoping that this was pretty clear, given that I'm not the first person to mention limits or visplanes in this discussion so far (meaning even a newcomer to the topic should be able to pick up what's going on). That and it's rather ridiculous to expect someone to be aware of what a "Visplane Overflow" is without being able to at least vaguely define one of the included terms. :P

I also don't see how the "everyone made vanilla maps before Boom came out..." tangent is relevant to the discussion, but if we're going that route, we also have to consider that maps were generally much simpler back then and there weren't really any ways to actually estimate visplane/seg counts in a map (making limit-pushing an act reserved for the brightest of minds). Nowadays we have Chocorenderlimits and Visplane Explorer and plenty of reason to use them since there are higher visual standards now than in the old days.
Still, I guarantee you there was plenty of head-bashing over vanilla limits back in those days too -- I'm sure the Alien Vendetta contributors in particular have some real war stories.

Saying that VPOs happen "if you overdetail your map" is a gross oversimplification. You'd be amazed at what sorts of seemingly-innocent things can make the visplane count shoot through the roof until you experience it firsthand, and fixing it is almost never just a case of "removing some detail". The real killers are visibility from area to area (e.g. window placement) and room size, since larger rooms generally equal more lines on screen if you want things to look not-bare. And even if the problem is detail, you've got to know which bit of detail to remove (e.g. wall borders are significantly less visplane-happy than a bunch of cut-out hexagon tiles on the floor). There's a lot more to manage than just how many detail sectors you put around things, and it's not always easy to repair in either case.

A final word on the subject: As paradoxical as it may seem, vanilla mapping just isn't the baseline standard any more: limit-removing is. Knowledge of limits is to vanilla mapping as the use of advanced engine features is to ZDoom mapping: In order to effectively produce the latter, you've got to have at least some mastery of the former. Jumping into either without building basic mapping skills is not something I'd advise, since you'll run into countless hurdles if you try and do too much.


@joe-ilya: I apologize for being a bit too blunt (and inadvertently ballooning the discussion). All this is not to discourage you from mapping, but to keep on working at it so you can improve. Regardless of the overflow issues, I feel that your map is not quite up to the quality standards for the set, mostly because it seems you're just starting out on the mapping front. My advice is to sit back and make some simple Doom/Boom format maps, without any worry about limits, to hone your skills in a less-constrained environment. Mapping's a fun and rewarding process, so definitely keep at it.

[RETRO-EDIT] Had a double-negative in there somewhere that changed the meaning of a sentence. Whoops.

Eris Falling said:

Can I have MAP30 yet? :D

PM me your email address, I'll send the unfinished Icon of Sin.

And;



Back-end of a simple Vanilla church -- it's a box, and a box! Rather than going to detailed structures, I want a wide-view of many buildings for these suburbs, which is kinda what I'm going for here. This church area is one of the more detailed.

@Xaser: spot on.
@cannonball re The Factory: Gameplay is tough with a lot of good evil traps. Memorable was the first big machine area, teleporting Cybie, and exit area (love that chopper), but I feel something is missing that I can´t quite put my finger on. Maybe something about corridors that just seem to be there to bridge room A and room B. The quality is definitely there though and I enjoyed it a lot. Throw some old spice or Brut 33 in there and see what happens.

glenzinho said:

teleporting Cybie

Well, then disregard what I said before about not finding him. I did open a door to see the end of the teleport-flash, that might have been him. I didn't have sound :/
I didn't see him again though after that, so it must be an optional fight at the moment

ComicMischief said:

PM me your email address, I'll send the unfinished Icon of Sin.

Doing now

Hey Eris. I just had an idea for Map 28 and I was wondering if I could take it.

Olympus said:

Hey Eris. I just had an idea for Map 28 and I was wondering if I could take it.

MAP28: The Spirit World - Possibly taken by Ella Guro or Antroid What's going on here?

Olympus said:

Hey Eris. I just had an idea for Map 28 and I was wondering if I could take it.

I think you may as well, since I can safely say that Ella Guro isn't going to make this map, and unless Antroid says anything, I'm going to assume he isn't doing it either.