Toughest DOOM II maps, from a pistol start

So, I've started replaying DOOM II again (using the keyboard, since I prefer this for the original IWADS). The last time I played through DOOM II, about two years ago, I restricted myself to pistol starts, disallowed the use of saves, and did not let myself exit without killing everything. With these restrictions, I found that some of the maps took me a long time, and many goes, to beat; partly because I had sloppy technique, as I was used to relying on saves, and partly because, with pistol starts, some of the more natural routes to take through the maps were a complete no-go, and so there was a lot of trial and error, figuring out the routes that would give me the best advantage. Anyway, now I'm playing through again, with the same restrictions, but to a certain extent since I've already solved the 'routes' puzzle, it's not proving so challenging, and I almost wish I could forget what I'd learned before, so I can enjoy figuring it out again.

This got me interested to find out which DOOM II maps people think are toughest from a pistol start - in my experience, these are not the maps that would be the toughest if weapons were being carried over from previous maps.

MAPs 09, 10, and 23 were, if remember correctly, the ones that took the most effort to beat. What's your experience?

durian said:

...and did not let myself exit without killing everything.

Map 15.

The only major issue here, I think, is taking care of the 'secret' arachnotron, hidden in one of the two yellow key rooms, since you need to have enough health left to then make it back through the long lava walk - not such an issue though if you know it's coming.

The most perilous elements of Map 15 are, I think, the same regardless of whether you pistol start or not - e.g., the Baron + Pain Elemental trap; this is a nasty surprise when your not expecting it, but the level prepares you well for it with BFG and rockets. So pistol starting doesn't put you a too great a disadvantage.

Map09 - Pacifist and not much ammo in the beginning part.
Map10 - It depends whether you are good at weapons usage.
Map21 - No armor, need to kill lots of sergeants in the beginning.
Map23 - Barrels of fun, the PEs are annoying.

No one's mentioned MAP29? Apparently that one's a bitch to do from pistol start.

Obsidian said:

No one's mentioned MAP29? Apparently that one's a bitch to do from pistol start.

Not really, you get some powerful weapons pretty quickly.

The only crap thing to do on Map29 is that quick jump to the platform with cacos trap, without lowering that pillar and wake those HKs.

Obsidian said:

No one's mentioned MAP29? Apparently that one's a bitch to do from pistol start.

Oh yes. I found the main problem here is the early gaggle of cacos and pain elementals, which - by taking what would be the most natural route - I simply can't manage with the little amo that I've collected by that point (my fisting skills are clearly not up to par, as a beserk is given right before this part). The route I take involves - rather than releasing them from the front - dropping into the blood, taking one of the north teleporters to bypass their section of the path, then dropping down again and taking the short passage to teleport to the cage with the chaingunners, grabbing the plasmam, then teleporting in behind the cacos and PEs and just plasma spamming.

I've always had trouble on Barrels of Fun (UV) with a pistol start.

This one got a little easier once I realised that linedef 83 blocks monsters, so once you're on the other side of it you're effectively immune to the PEs and their lost souls, so you can leave them to it for a while, then come back and finish them off at the end with some proper weapons.

Nevertheless, it's a bitch.

Map23 is definitely the one that gives me the most trouble and it's not even that close. Should a miracle occur and the jump magically works, it's a smidgen easier. Sadly, I've only done that a whole whopping one time.

HOW COME no one mentioned MAP22? I'm pretty sure it's the hardest from a pistol start, followed by MAP23. But both of them are fugly, with poor pacing. MAP22 is painfully short and disjointed, forgettable. MAP23 is hard only at the barrels stage, after that it becomes a basic run to the exit.

I agree, map 22 is harder than 23, but that might be because I play 23 much more often; I normally skip 22.

Hmmm... 22. I'm not sure. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's very tough (especially with the keyboard - the cramped spaces and close quarters are a real pain with the slow turning speed). But actually in terms of firepower it's quite generous with both weapons and ammo. I'm not sure that there's much that a pistol start forces you to do differently - unlike e.g., 09, 10, 29 - although I'll have replay to remind myself.

I think it's mostly my dislike of the map that makes it so difficult, lack of practice and whatnot. I don't understand why 29 is considered so hard though, even without the plasma rifle it's pretty easy if you don't rush. Map 23 and 9 on the other hand, those aren't easy.

Obsidian said:

No one's mentioned MAP29? Apparently that one's a bitch to do from pistol start.

There's hard areas where you wish you had more weapons, but it's not awful, not even on UV most of the time. But beating it from a pistol start on UV can be feel rather rewarding (imo)

printz said:

HOW COME no one mentioned MAP22? I'm pretty sure it's the hardest from a pistol start, followed by MAP23. But both of them are fugly, with poor pacing. MAP22 is painfully short and disjointed, forgettable. MAP23 is hard only at the barrels stage, after that it becomes a basic run to the exit.

There's some pretty generous secrets in the starting room, but if you play that map on nightmare, it's like instant death every time.

Map16 is pretty difficult.

inb4 essel :v

Map16 isn't really hard. There's BFG, lots of ammo pickups and even invulnerability spheres. Just ignore monsters at the beginning part, deal with that teleporting trap first, and then kill the remaining monsters using RL and BFG then it's OK.

A lot of MAP16's difficulty comes from not initially knowing where traps and weapons (and other pickups) are located. If you don't already know where to go, you can get pretty overwhelmed by the trap triggers without having the equipment to take care of them.

I agree on map 23 being the most difficult, but only because of the pain elementals room IMO. If that room wasn't there, the level would be a lot easier.

If we're going for a UV-Max rule, I'm going to say that MAP23 is up there even if just for the Pain Elementals. I tend to kill everything as I encounter it, which isn't always the most efficient manner of going about business (oh well, fuck speedrunning) but Jesus fucking Christ you absolutely have to kill these bastards ASAP before they flood the area with Lost Souls. Even the vanilla '21 maximum' is still 2100HP to clear out, never mind everything else at that point. And they just love getting in the fucking way while you try and shoot something else. Assholes.

After this point though it's pretty easy; once you get the Megasphere it's just a case of laughing your way past everything to the exit.

It's best to just get past all the monsters in the first room and come back when better equipped, that is, with a BFG. It surely requires some skill but.. if I can do it, anyone can.

As far as I'm concerned, Refuelling Base and The Living End are the hardest from scratch. In map10, you have to run around like a headless chicken and come across new waves of monsters. Map29 is mostly tricky because of the cacodemons and pain elementals at the beginning. The hitscanners are troublesome as well.

Dunno why, but I had some problems with beating The Factory from a pistol start, too.

I've been thinking hard about what maps are hard with pistol start... I actually can't think of any o.O May have to start playing them via Pistol start on various difficulties again.

BaronOfStuff said:

If we're going for a UV-Max rule, I'm going to say that MAP23 is up there even if just for the Pain Elementals. I tend to kill everything as I encounter it, which isn't always the most efficient manner of going about business (oh well, fuck speedrunning) but Jesus fucking Christ you absolutely have to kill these bastards ASAP before they flood the area with Lost Souls.

If you forgo trying to kill them immediately, and run straight past them, it's pretty straight forward, since once you're over this line...



they can't touch you, so just leave them to it and come back later...



BOOM!

Playing through this map again, what got me was the first archvile, as I'd completely forgotten it was there :/

Map 04 and Map 10 seem ludicrous on UV -Fast. I realise I'm not a good player but those scenarios kill you in the most ludicrous and immediate fashion most of the time.

(All of the time if you're me)