Doom 2 The Way id Did [Final Beta Released!]

Tarnsman said:

I absolutely disagree, Doom 2 would lose a lot of its charm if I couldn't open a 192 deep door with pegged sides and watch that GRAYVINE scroll up to the ceiling.

Edit: I should point out, that this isn't the case with everyone's maps but Alfonzo and I never put any intentional fuckups in our maps, we simply discovered them and elected not to fix them for authenticity.

That is one thing! Not being able to register a secret because you have to walk INTO a fucking torch to get it is another :3

Hmm, for the sake of interjecting, I do have to say that the biggest thing D2TWID nails (IMO) that the first one didn't is the roughness of the IWAD maps. The first DTWID had a sort of implied "make it feel like id but don't make it 'bad' on purpose" sort of philosophy (well, somewhat less "implied" when I started bothering folks about exactly that directly :P ), whereas here it actually strikes a surprisingly-effective balance of "sometimes unpolished but never shitty" which pretty much defines Doom 2 in my eyes.

Except Nirvana. Fuck Nirvana. D:

The thing is, the Doom2 iwad can get away with anything, for no other reason than it is Doom2. People will forgive any faults in the Doom2 iwad, because it has so much power in terms of nostalgia to offset the actual faults.

schwerpunk said:

Yes, yes, exactly! When I play Doom 2 I can't help but be biased by rose-tinted nostalgia. Even when tut-tutting at the texture misalignments I involuntarily experience the whole IWAD with an element of childlike wonder, from when Doom was graphically unmatched, and mistakes were invisible to me. As a compliment, I will say that D2TWID does nail the gameplay so far, and in doing so somewhat shortcircuits the critical adult in me.

When I play a reimagining of a classic map, I don't feel the weight of that same wonder. I just see a very simple -- some might say 'meh' -- map made in 2013. It's an uphill battle for any old-style megawad, for sure.

Better than I could have said it myself.

The point is that there is no nostalgia associated with D2twid. Now D2twid is shaping up as a very respectable take on a reimagined Doom2 iwad, but because of the nostalgia factor, a fault that looks charming in the Doom2 iwad looks utterly terrible in D2twid.

And this is why I was making such a strong point about things like SUPPORT3 misalignments and why I feel things like that are simply indefensible. Misalignments and HOM's look bad enough in Doom2 when playing through it in 2013. They look unforgivable in a mapset that has no mitigating nostalgia to draw upon. D2twid simply cannot do something 'just because Doom2 did it', because D2twid does not have the sheer level of fond remembrance that Doom2 has.

P.S. Thanks st.alfonzo and essel for taking the time to consider and reply to my earlier criticisms.

Well allow me to be as blunt as possible. Too bad, deal with it, they're never ever, ever, in a million years going to change. Ever. And your opinion is just objectively wrong. (If it's "indefensible, I'm not going to bother defending it.)

Edit: It's called Doom 2 the way id did not "let's make a doom 2 themed mapset".

Meanie. :P

Fun megawad, though.

Way to totally overreact to what was nothing more than an opinion Tarnsman.


Well let me be as blunt as possible. I suspect that certain people must be terribly pleased that they have found themselves such a snappy, arrogant lapdog to run around barking noisily at any opinion that is even vaguely disagreeable.

I've got to say, it's really difficult to take Kyka seriously when he's using terms like "indefensible" and "unforgivable" in reference to misaligned support textures.

I disagree as well. Feel like calling me a lapdog?

ANYway... the fact remains that this megawad is in its beta stage, and is thus very unlikely to change, so this discussion is largely academic. I'd be up for continuing these musings, but I think a new thread would be the place to do it. Just a little too close to home right here, I think.

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

Way to totally overreact to what was nothing more than an opinion Tarnsman.


Well let me be as blunt as possible. I suspect that certain people must be terribly pleased that they have found themselves such a snappy, arrogant lapdog to run around barking noisily at any opinion that is even vaguely disagreeable.

>Make a dipshit post
>Be surprised when you get a dipshit response

If you're going to say that SUPPORT3 on 32 wide surfaces are worst than the holocaust then I'm not going to bother saying anything more than you are just objectively wrong. You can't make a project based around imitating id and then just cherry pick certain things, you either make a map in someone's style or you don't.

I quit after not seeing ssg in map02. nah jk. I just finished it while keeping my weapons after each map and liked it. I'm kinda indifferent to the wad's premise, but I thought the maps were fun and cool and Doom2-y. Why only 3 cybers? And no cyber at the end of map29? :)

TimeOfDeath said:

I quit after not seeing ssg in map02. nah jk. I just finished it while keeping my weapons after each map and liked it. I'm kinda indifferent to the wad's premise, but I thought the maps were fun and cool and Doom2-y. Why only 3 cybers? And no cyber at the end of map29? :)

We will definitely be adding more cybers to multiplayer (it wouldn't be authentic without it a ton of MP cybers :P), so you can play on solonet if you want to have a slightly tougher expeience. At the moment I believe we're only short 1 cyber compared to Doom 2.

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

Misalignments and HOM's look bad enough in Doom2 when playing through it in 2013. They look unforgivable in a mapset that has no mitigating nostalgia to draw upon. D2twid simply cannot do something 'just because Doom2 did it', because D2twid does not have the sheer level of fond remembrance that Doom2 has.

I'm going to step in an address this notion of nostalgia; if you're going to define nostalgia as something that existed 19 years ago and that you played X years ago, then I'm afraid no contemporary project is going to measure up. I'm afraid the developers can't take a time machine and deposit this somewhere into 1995 or whenever so that you can have played it X years ago as well to have given it a chance for its own nostalgia; you might have to use your imagination.

As someone who has hung out in the development chan for this project for a long time now, I can say that it was fun and enjoyable to watch people discover misalignments and bugs and the phrase 'leave it in!' to come up. Heck I even advocated that there be no beta testing period, just in-house playing, for additional authenticity. But the point is that Doom 2 or any of these other mapsets, warts and all, need to be regarded for what they are and replicated as such. It's fun that way. You might not experience it the same way because you're not using your imagination and instead fixated on direct memories and comparing things in a way that isn't really possible or appropriate, I'm not sure.

But coming in and assailing this because it has no 'mitigating nostalgia' or 'level of fond remembrance', well, I have to ask you.. did you even finish the whole mapset yet? Did you finish it and give it like a day and maybe play it again? You know, nostalgia and fond remembrance tend not to exist instantly, especially on the level of something influencial and 19 years old. Instead of playing this project and commenting on it with a chip on your shoulder because you have a bone to pick with the developers, maybe you could actually try to have a good time, suspend a bit of your disbelief and actually pretend it's an old wad for a while. I dunno.

I ~can~ tell you that I have fond remembrance of hanging out for all this and watching it, and watching people have fun making it, and I've only barely played the thing personally (usually busy with BTSX or in 'anything but Doom' mode). But that's just me I guess.

iirc Doom 2 didn't have a single proper Cyberdemon fight. Everytime he appeared there was a gimmick. The only thing close to a real fight was The Living End, where you can just exit the level before the pit even rises fully :/

Map 11 was an awesome map. To my mind the best in the set. And it did this without having to resort to relatively minor things like leaving in HOM's and misalignments.

To leave in HOM's and misalignments because Doom2 did it is plain pointless, when it is perfectly possible to capture the 'essence' of Doom2 without having to use such faults.

Tarnsman, you even said yourself 'We always go for feel over hard specifics', and seeing as maps like map 11 (and many others) capture that overall feel without having to resort to such 'specifics' as misalignments to make a map work makes no sense. But with your usual humility, you will just ignore anything that doesn't suit your point of view and yell at it until it goes away.

Which brings me to my next point...

Who the fuck is Seele00textOnly, I wonder? Now I don't know who he is, and I don't really care, but I can't help but notice certain things about the timing and manner of his posting. For example the fact that he has only ever posted 6 times on Doomworld's hallowed forums is quite noteworthy. What is even more noteworthy is that every single time he have ever posted, it has been in essel's defence during an argument.

I find this quite remarkable.

I mean, most people create a Doomworld account to, you know, get involved with the Doom mapping and modding scene, or just keeping abreast of Doom news, or perhaps finding help with a particular Doom issue. But not Mr Seele00TextOnly. Oh no. He has apparently joined these forums with the sole purpose of defending certain moderators and their supporters.

Let's take a look, shall we?

First off, Mr Seele has posted twice in this very thread. Here:
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1170510#post1170510, as a response to Sgt. Crispy's now infamous 'meh' comment.

And second off, several posts earlier in response to my own gentle criticism of some of the D2twid levels, and my admittedly less gentle response to Tarnsman himself. (No need to post a link to this one, it is just there.)

And now, let us look at Seele's 4 other posts.

First up, here he is posting during a disagreement I had with essel on the BTSX thread:
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1159105#post1159105
BTSX playtester and partner in crime indeed.

And now, to the Brutal Doom thread, where he turned up again, coincidentally in defence of essel:
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1144941#post1144941
You'll notice essel's post right above this one.

And here he is again, turning up during that little shitstorm surrounding the Little Temple Group and their project development thread with all the false aliases etc etc. If you scroll around this page, you will see plenty of essel and Tarnsman flaming their way through this thread:
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1144319#post1144319

And again from the same thread:
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1144319#post1144319
Notice in the very next post how Obsidian has even asked "Who the heck are you?"

An excellent question Obsidian, an excellent question.

I, for one, detect the delicate stench of bullshit.

>Map 11 did it right.
You do realize that Map 11 still has zero alignment and tons of SUPPORT3 used on non-24 wide surfaces right? I'm not saying this just to be an asshole, you are literally objectively wrong Kyka. The only reason why SUPPORT3 is mostly on 24 wide is because it's a Romero map.

You can argue that shit like HOMs, pegging errors, and the inability to get 100% secrets should be fixed (which I would absolutely disagree with as they all add to Doom 2's charm when done accidentally - I am not advocating people purposefully screw up their map) but bitching about a McGee map being boxy or having SUPPORT3 on a 32 wide surface is just saying "I don't want Doom 2 the way id did, I want Doom 2 without McGee" because those are dominant* things in a McGee map we just can't not do that when trying to make a map in his style. It's like making a Romero map without catwalks over damaging liquid. He just didn't not do that in Doom 2. You have to do it.

*McGee didn't use that much SUPPORT3, but when he did, he clearly did not give a fuck as to what the length of the line was or how it looked on that line.

Also
>Seele
>He
WHAT?

To be fair tarnsman there's nothing indicating that seele is a she, unless I missed something, just sayin'! Aside from that though, I have to agree with tarnsman about the whole leaving in poor alignment and HOMs thing. This project's goal is to completely emulate the level designers responsible for creating the levels in the Doom 2 iwad, flaws and all. Deviating from that would be breaking the rules of the project.

Tarnsman said:

>Map 11 did it right.
You do realize that Map 11 still has zero alignment and tons of SUPPORT3 used on non-24 wide surfaces right? I'm not saying this just to be an asshole, you are literally objectively wrong Kyka. The only reason why SUPPORT3 is mostly on 24 wide is because it's a Romero map.

SUPPORT3 is used in D2twid map 11 as it should be used. Either on a 24 wide pillar/join between different textures, or on a linedef that is 64 units wide or wider as a 'texture' in its own right. My whole point about SUPPORT3 was its unnecessary use on 32 length linedefs as a join between different textures or on a support pillar. Map 11 doesn't do this, and is better for it.

You can argue that shit like HOMs, pegging errors, and the inability to get 100% secrets should be fixed (which I would absolutely disagree with ...

But I haven't said that, have I? You are just disagreeing with a load of condescending crap that you just made up. Pegging errors? Where did I say you should fix all of those. Not being able to get 100% secrets? Don't recall mentioning that either.

as they all add to Doom 2's charm when done accidentally - I am not advocating people purposefully screw up their map) but bitching about a McGee map being boxy or having SUPPORT3 on a 32 wide surface is just saying "I don't want Doom 2 the way id did, I want Doom 2 without McGee" because those are dominant* things in a McGee map we just can't not do that when trying to make a map in his style. It's like making a Romero map without catwalks over damaging liquid. He just didn't not do that in Doom 2. You have to do it.

My whole point was that you can still capture the overall 'feel' of any map: McGee, Romero or Petersen, without having to include the worst of their faults in their mapping also. Quit trying to twist my words into saying that I want you to fix everything. There are plenty of misalignments in map 11, and other maps, but they are not blatant or especially obvious, and they don't detract from the overall completeness of the majority of maps.

And on another note:

You know, I can remember a time on Doomworld where I could post suggestions and criticisms about a mapset where I didn't have to be subjected to this sort of crap. st. alfonzo and essel both wrote walls of text explaining what was wrong with some of the things I said, and what was my response to that? I thanked them for at least taking the time to read my post. essel and I don't agree about forum etiquette, but it is mostly not that hard to work around those differences. It was only after you had to go off with your off the leash arrogance that things went downhill. It is a little sad that the prevailing attitudes on Doomworld not only tolerate posting like yours, but actually seem to reward it.

Anyway, Tarnsman, whatever. Do whatever you want with this project. I know you will. In the end it is a pretty good mapset. I was just posting my thoughts as I played through the levels. Pity that me doing that made some people overly defensive and sent others into full attack mode. Perhaps it is your loss, as not everything I said was wrong, and with even a shred of humility or engagement from people like you, *gasp* I could have even added something to this project.

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

My whole point about SUPPORT3 was its unnecessary use on 32 length linedefs as a join between different textures or on a support pillar. Map 11 doesn't do this, and is better for it.

Okay, fair enough, but that's not what you said buddy. Nor did you say anything like, "Hey I think that the use of 32 wide SUPPORT3 in the maps does not look McGee and I think McGee would have just bent the line there instead" or even just "this line pictured here is offensively ugly and it should just stop existing".

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

The use of SUPPORT3 in this level is crap, being used predominantly on 32 length linedefs instead of 24. I understand trying to imitate the 'oldschool misalignments' of the original Doom2 iwad, but if this is the case, then it has gone too far in this direction. Also some SUPPORT2 linedefs to break up the TEKGREN areas would be better.

I see no mention of "joint" just pointing out that SUPPORT3 was used on a bunch of 32 wide lines, which is how McGee prodominantly used it (or on 16 wide lines... or on 48 wide lines... or on pretty much every line that wasn't 24 excluding the windows in the first area of Waste Tunnels where even still he managed to fuck it up and misalign some of them on a 24 wide surface) coupled by the fact that this came right after you saying you didn't like about how a McGee map was boxy. Which again is what McGee did. The 32 wide SUPPORT3 is not "hey this is a fuckup I'm going to leave in" it's "how did this author use this texture" it's a critical part of their style. It would be like not making a bare empty room in a Sandy map because it's ugly, it's what 75% of Sandy's rooms were, you kinda have to do shit like that if you're going to emulate their style.

But that's not the really big problem, that post was fine.

No, here is where you warrant being treated like a dipshit.

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

things like that are simply indefensible. Misalignments and HOM's look bad enough in Doom2 when playing through it in 2013. They look unforgivable in a mapset that has no mitigating nostalgia to draw upon. D2twid simply cannot do something 'just because Doom2 did it', because D2twid does not have the sheer level of fond remembrance that Doom2 has.

So basically you're saying that we "simply cannot do something" despite imitating something being the project goal because you're unable to nostalgia bomb on it and it's both "unforgivable" and "indefensible". What the heck do you want me to say to that? If you're just going to say "no you're wrong" then I'm just going to say "no you're wrong back". At least have the common decency to say "this is shit and I don't like it" when you start telling people they can't do something, you're being a dipshit. And you know how dipshits get treated? Like dipshits. So in summation. Stop acting like a dipshit.

Edit: I actually just wanted to address this, you said "In the first 8 maps of the Doom2 iwad, only Map 05 did this, but even there the majority of SUPPORT3 were on 24 length linedefs" and I just would like to point out that you are actually wrong about this. Just so you know. The Crusher does it too and the majority of SUPPORT3 used in the waste tunnels is used on the incorrect line length. As the maps progressed onward from the first four McGee's use of SUPPORT3 did as well as did his tendency to use it on absolutely wrong line lengths. This trend continued into his E4 maps which shows that this was a trend and not something he did once and then just stopped doing.

Double Edit: I really love how McGee managed to align the SKINMET room at the start of E4M1 and make it look even less aligned by doing so.

Tarnsman said:

You can't make a project based around imitating id and then just cherry pick certain things, you either make a map in someone's style or you don't.

I wonder if it's really so black and white, though, since (presumably) resemblance is a relation which can come in degrees, and which can obtain in respect of some features and not others. E.g., In respect of feature-F, a can be more b than c which is more like b than d, while in respect of feature-G, d can be more like b than c which is more like b than a.

So, when it comes to making a map in someone else's style, there will be a variety of different respects in which you might aim to achieve similarity, and - for each respect - a scale of degrees to which you could achieve this.

But if - as it may be in the case of DOOM2 - different respects pull in different directions, and so achieving similarity to high degree in one respect requires achieving it to a low degree in another, there will have to be a certain amount of sacrifice and cherry picking, and people will have to decide what they think is more important.

Anyway, I have no position on the specific issue of mapping errors - they're not obviously design elements, but that doesn't preclude them from being elements of someone's style - just an interest in the more general issues that are at work in this discussion.

Oh you absolutely can make a project loosely based around the style of a certain mapper. But the goal of making Doom the way id did is to make Doom the way id did, not Doom the way id kinda did in spirit but without the 'id'iocy.

Jesus fucking Christ, there's a lot of back-and-forth about authenticity. Whilst you're arguing about that, I'm enjoying a fun homage WAD with varying levels of accuracy in replicating the original. An album full of cover versions and remixes? No. An album full of new songs recorded using very similar stylistic cues? Yes.

My one complaint though; city levels. I'm loving them in general, though I feel there are too many dark outdoor areas -- Doom 2's outdoor city areas were a little dim, not this dark.

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

You know, I can remember a time on Doomworld where I could post suggestions and criticisms about a mapset where I didn't have to be subjected to this sort of crap. st. alfonzo and essel both wrote walls of text explaining what was wrong with some of the things I said, and what was my response to that? I thanked them for at least taking the time to read my post. essel and I don't agree about forum etiquette, but it is mostly not that hard to work around those differences. It was only after you had to go off with your off the leash arrogance that things went downhill. It is a little sad that the prevailing attitudes on Doomworld not only tolerate posting like yours, but actually seem to reward it.

Anyway, Tarnsman, whatever. Do whatever you want with this project. I know you will. In the end it is a pretty good mapset. I was just posting my thoughts as I played through the levels. Pity that me doing that made some people overly defensive and sent others into full attack mode. Perhaps it is your loss, as not everything I said was wrong, and with even a shred of humility or engagement from people like you, *gasp* I could have even added something to this project.

Lots of people have posted suggestions and criticisms in this very thread, yourself included. That's what the beta testing period is for. When someone starts ranting about how "indefensible" and "unforgivable" it is to include misaligned textures in a map, though, it's basically impossible to take seriously.

Given your particular penchant for getting into overblown discussions suspiciously like this one, going as far back as 2008 on your original account that you're Loser Evading™ for, I would recommend taking a few deep breaths before playing the victim card again next time. :P

In regard to your Seele conspiracy post, she's a Back to Saturn X playtester, who rarely reads Doomworld outside from threads being discussed on IRC. This is why there's a lot of overlap between where she posts and where Tarns, myself, and other #doomtwid people post. Seele was also one of the guests in the most recent episode of Tango TV Program B: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/1168881

I really like that misalignments and HOMs and specific design choices were kept in the wad. But I will never forgive you guys for it.

Clearly, you and I see Kyka's posts very differently. But the fact remains that feathers have indeed been rustled, and that was never my intention when encouraging this side-discussion. It's you guys' beta test, so I can understand how you might not want to hear this, especially in your own thread. So anyway, here's a new thread for anyone that wants to continue this discussion:

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-general/64345-mapping-conventions-natural-vanilla-vs-vanilla/

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

I mean, most people create a Doomworld account to, you know, get involved with the Doom mapping and modding scene, or just keeping abreast of Doom news, or perhaps finding help with a particular Doom issue. (...) (Seele00TextOnly) has apparently joined these forums with the sole purpose of defending certain moderators and their supporters.

Not to derail or make this all about me, but I suppose this must be the place. I've been hanging out with the ruthless elitists of #doomtwid, where I'm regularly lashed for not being kewl enough. My one way to endear myself to them is to post in their defenses, for which they reward me with fresh drinking water instead of dirty dish water.

No, actually full disclosure I'm Essel's girlfriend, and these people have been really welcoming to my presence in their chan and occasionally commenting on various projects, especially for a big group of mean elitist bullies that suppress all creativity and dissent. He didn't like drag me in or anything, I just kept playing maps he made and eventually stuff I was saying on BTSX was being considered helpful so I started posting in their forum. (I've accrued over 100 posts there doing so, btw). No, I don't map or mod therefore I'm not in here asking for advice typically. (My rare attempts have been so godawful that I couldn't possibly share.) Plus since I'm around all these knowledgeable people including in constant communication with Essel, why would I make posts on a forum asking for help anyway?

Actually almost every post I've made on Doomworld has come from me making a joke or comment in the channel and then it being suggested to me, amidst laughter often, that I've just gotta post that. I try not to be too defensive of essel though I guess a couple times I have posted that way, in general though I'm pretty sure it's just 'I see something that looks stupid, I see it not being responded to in an angle I'm feeling, I make a post.' Hopefully it's not being viewed as shitposting for someone to just come in and say something now and then without like, facing some Inquisition? I dunno. Then again for most part I've been welcomed here too, and I can understand at least one or two 'who are you, lol?' posts. But yours? I don't even know what to make of that point-the-finger screed that came out of nowhere.

You didn't even address anything I had to say about the notions of nostalgia and the suggestion to engage imagination. Would you care to?

I figured you were Joshy in disguise or something (isn't his last name Sealy?). But now that you've played the girl card on doomworld, you have to post a picture of you and essel together smiling like a happy couple. Btw, don't believe everything essel tells you, him and his friends just pretend to be really knowledgeable in an attempt to control the cacowards. nah jk

TimeOfDeath said:

nah jk

Yeah, only -I- control the Cacowards

kmxexii said:

Yeah, only -I- control the Cacowards

hmm, seems like i'll have to plan for TWO time travel assassinations...

TimeOfDeath said:

But now that you've played the girl card on doomworld, you have to post a picture of you and essel together smiling like a happy couple.

I think the above few paragraphs of text are already enough of a turn on.