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Antroid

split from pictures thread

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As a followup to my previous post about techbase design, here's some examples of what I'm talking about from some of the first maps of BTSX:

And before anyone tries to claim this, NO, I'm not trying to advocate total boring realism. Whatever layout you need for your level is fine. But if you're making a techbase, at least try to make it look and feel like a techbase and not something totally abstract! If you don't care about being true to your setting, why have a setting at all? Why not just drop all pretenses of a backstory, setting and whatnot and make something like Monochrome, but with more colors and shapes (and good levels)? Again, abstract layouts are absolutely fine, but if you're claiming to have a theme to your level, the decorations should actually represent this theme. When techbases are done like this it feels completely artificial and wrong, like it doesn't even try and hide that it's just a roller-coaster painted to look like an abstract metal shape and with random parts of a "techbase" slapped about nonsensically. Just look at Knee Deep in the Dead. It was abstract, sure, but in a completely different way. It could've been a result of the mappers not feeling the need to meticulously decorate and detail their maps with something, anything, but the fact remains that the original Doom techbases look a heckuvalot more tastefully, imaginatively and thoughtfully done - to me, at least. It had areas that were different because they looked like actual different places serving different purposes, not just differently lit and shaped rooms with tons of fuckin' cables and monitors everywhere. Heck, that one screenshot Tarnsman posted of DTS-T looks a lot neater and more appealing to me than any of these ones in this post.

I would also like to point out that technically this post contains pictures and therefore is totally on topic in this thread.

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Antroid said:

maybe there shouldn't be monitors on the ceiling or the open access to electrical cables should not be highlighted by neon lamps and placed everywhere like a celebrated piece of indoor decor.


Overhead displays are used quite a lot even today, Computer textures in DOOM are clearly information displays and not something you're supposed to use, so having a computer screen above a bridge crossing is indeed where it probably would be (giving you directions and other such information) also if I was working on electrical equipment, snap on lights on the side of exposed panels would probably be a really good idea, as they would both illuminate it for me to work on and inform people who shouldn't be working on it that there are exposed wires.

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Tarnsman said:

Overhead displays are used quite a lot even today, Computer textures in DOOM are clearly information displays and not something you're supposed to use, so having a computer screen above a bridge crossing is indeed where it probably would be (giving you directions and other such information) also if I was working on electrical equipment, snap on lights on the side of exposed panels would probably be a really good idea, as they would both illuminate it for me to work on and inform people who shouldn't be working on it that there are exposed wires.


Ehh, when I say on the ceiling I don't mean just what they're attached to, I mean when these displays are just in places where noone can see anything on them (way too high, for example. That, and they usually display stuff like text or planet footage, not directions). And I can buy lights on panels that you remove to fix cables and whatnot (although that's way too contrived and people would just bring flashlights or lamps), but none of these panels look like they've been removed to fix a certain part of the electric system. They're symmetrical, they're everywhere, clearly placed only to look good at a passing glance and not to be an interesting decoration. Imagine if in a castle level missing pieces of the wall (fallen out bricks, say) were all completely symmetrical and evenly spaced. Surely you'd agree that it would look absurd?

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There designed that way because that's what looks good in the DOOM engine, E1 was not designed to resemble anything remotely like an actual thing, but what Romero thought looked cool. Look at the opening shot of E1M1, you have that indented blue carpet thing and those computers along the upper wall where they face outwards towards a window. It doesn't make sense, but it's a striking opening shot, so Romero went with it.

If you want an "explanation" for stuff you need to kind of use your imagination and say "this room could possibly be used for this". Like that elevated ledge with computer monitors you posted is clearly an area for maintenance people to go up, tap into the wires and have a handy display for easy trouble shooting. There doesn't need to be a lift or anything to get up there because they'd just bring their own ladder and climb up there. And the symmetrical wire openings are because the base was clearly still under construction when the demons appeared, most construction work does do even spacing and shit like that so there is your "explanation".

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Tarnsman said:

There designed that way because that's what looks good in the DOOM engine, E1 was not designed to resemble anything remotely like an actual thing, but what Romero thought looked cool. Look at the opening shot of E1M1, you have that indented blue carpet thing and those computers along the upper wall where they face outwards towards a window. It doesn't make sense, but it's a striking opening shot, so Romero went with it.

If you want an "explanation" for stuff you need to kind of use your imagination and say "this room could possibly be used for this". Like that elevated ledge with computer monitors you posted is clearly an area for maintenance people to go up, tap into the wires and have a handy display for easy trouble shooting. There doesn't need to be a lift or anything to get up there because they'd just bring their own ladder and climb up there. And the symmetrical wire openings are because the base was clearly still under construction when the demons appeared, most construction work does do even spacing and shit like that so there is your "explanation".

Almost! The computer panels in that E1M4 stairway actually double as maintenance doors for the repair staff, who can get up there via a passage not exposed to the player and hook them up to a portable keyboard to input commands and get status readings while working on the equipment.

Of course, some jackass keeps leaving a floor lamp right in the middle of their work station at the end of his shift so they have to keep moving it out of the way. Shortly before the events of episode 1, this particular employee was removed from his post and sent to the Saturn Y snow mines to learn the value of hard work, in accordance with Union Aerospace Corporation retribution protocol 37.

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I suppose it's once again down to what feels like what and who likes and dislikes what for no apparent reason. Ugh, subjectiveness, how I hate you. Although I would be willing to bet that all these explanations you just thought of were nowhere to be found in the map authors' minds when they were making their maps. Sure, you can stretch a lot and justify the stupidest looking arrangements of decor, but it really shows - at least I think it does, to me - when it was really thought of and intended like that by the authors, and when it wasn't. It's not even so much about how good or logical the end result looks, it's about the ideology of mapping which I personally dislike. I'm reminded of Turok 2 on the N64, which had multiplayer levels as basic layouts, and before starting a match you could select a texture set for them and voila, the same level could be an ancient temple, a sinister factory, a spaceship... Many Doom levels people make are like that. They could be anything with just some textures swapped, and that's not what I call solid realization of a theme, which is actually usually possible in the engine despite what people might think. And I realize that not many people actually care about this sort of natural/fake "feel", or immersion, all of which are more fleeting and unpinpointable than the basic emotions a map inadvertedly inspires in players simply due to raw stuff like the shapes in the architecture, the color combinations and whatever... But that sure doesn't mean I can't be opinionated about it! :D Okay, back on track, the silly techbase discussion should be no more.

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Antroid said:

Although I would be willing to bet that all these explanations you just thought of were nowhere to be found in the map authors' minds when they were making their maps.


Well they are for my maps and seeing as my explanation for E1M4 was almost the same as Essel's (who made the map) I'm willing to bet it was in his too.

Now when you get to BTSX E3 you'll have a point because all the levels there are specifically trying to NOT be any real functional place.

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Tarnsman said:

Well they are for my maps and seeing as my explanation for E1M4 was almost the same as Essel's (who made the map) I'm willing to bet it was in his too.

It's hard to believe but I'll trust you on this one. Even though it puts cracks into my carefully crafted (over the years) image of a sinister level designer that makes maps that feel like that to me while chuckling about how clueless all the players are and how he can afford to not put any thought into decorating his levels, devoiding them of real self-expression or creativity, so that he can churn them out at a quick pace and be showered in praise by his ignorant target audience. Now that I spell it out, this image may be slightly ridiculous itself.

Tarnsman then added:
Now when you get to BTSX E3 you'll have a point because all the levels there are specifically trying to NOT be any real functional place.

I'm just going to be an annoying prick now ("as opposed to the usual" jokes go here) and say that "completely abstract mindfuckery dimension" is a theme like any other and can be realized nicely as well as badly, and I certainly hope that E3's levels aren't just like E1's but with random mismatching textures and some more curved or weirdly angled linedefs :P In which case I'll totally bitch that the theme of "no theme" was badly realized.

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There are enough computer cases in the world with clear glass windows lit by some colored light and showing all the inner workings (serving the dual purpose of looking cool and letting you see if, say, your fan is fucking up or something) that I don't really feel like there needs to be further explanation of why there are lit-up wires or circuitry in the walls of high-tech compounds full of machinery and computer equipment.

Antroid said:

It's hard to believe but I'll trust you on this one. Even though it puts cracks into my carefully crafted (over the years) image of a sinister level designer that makes maps that feel like that to me while chuckling about how clueless all the players are and how he can afford to not put any thought into decorating his levels, devoiding them of real self-expression or creativity, so that he can churn them out at a quick pace and be showered in praise by his ignorant target audience. Now that I spell it out, this image may be slightly ridiculous itself.

LOL. If you're really talking about me, my mapping is anything but quick. Tarnsman will tell you that much. One of my maps in E1 was started in 2009 and was one of the very last things to be finished for the episode 1 release. One of the things that's held up episode 2 from being released already, despite the episode being at least like 85% done before E1 even came out, is that I recently took something like three months to finish an overhaul of one of my E2 maps from 2011 (replacing a lot of areas entirely, making it play better, visual revamp, etc).

Just because something doesn't fit your idea of what creative expression ought to be doesn't mean that there's no creative expression in it or that its author doesn't care.

The part about me being a sinister, manipulating map machine with no emotions is actually all true though!

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esselfortium said:

Almost! The computer panels in that E1M4 stairway actually double as maintenance doors for the repair staff, who can get up there via a passage not exposed to the player and hook them up to a portable keyboard to input commands and get status readings while working on the equipment.

Of course, some jackass keeps leaving a floor lamp right in the middle of their work station at the end of his shift so they have to keep moving it out of the way. Shortly before the events of episode 1, this particular employee was removed from his post and sent to the Saturn Y snow mines to learn the value of hard work, in accordance with Union Aerospace Corporation retribution protocol 37.

I smell a btsx side-quest wad. :)

btw thx for comments guyz

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esselfortium said:

The part about me being a sinister, manipulating map machine with no emotions is actually all true though!


This I can vouch for.

It seems that E1M5 of BTSX was singled out in particular, and I'm sorry to hear that my map wasn't up to your standards! It's true that I really don't have an eye for detail, so instead when constructing a new map, I tend to focus on just making it fun to run around in and such.

So maybe the structures and facilities of the map don't really make any real life sense, but that's alright with me. At the end of the day, I'm making maps that I would enjoy, and I'm doing them in my own way. I just like to build layouts with cool shapes that are fun to run around in, and I really don't see how that could be devoid of self-expression. I'm expressing myself by mapping in the only way that I know how! My work IS an extension of my creativity, regardless of its subjective quality. I like my maps, and I play them quite often really! And if other people like them, well that's pretty cool too.

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Pavera said:

It seems that E1M5 of BTSX was singled out in particular, and I'm sorry to hear that my map wasn't up to your standards!


Sorry, I didn't mean to make most of my screenshots of your map. It was just the last one I played yesterday and it was freshest in my mind, along with bits of 4 (I think?). It's not in any way worse than the other maps by the other authors. It's all very well made for what it is, but the "what it is" isn't quite what I'd enjoy most in a doom levelset (I always want more focus on immersion, no matter the game or theme).

esselfortium said:

LOL. If you're really talking about me, my mapping is anything but quick.
...

The part about me being a sinister, manipulating map machine with no emotions is actually all true though!


Actually that wasn't a dig at any of you (the "quick pace" thing might've seemed like Tarnsman, I hear he's quite quick with doombuilder, but it wasn't intended to be), I don't really know you guys and how you map well enough to imagine specific authors. It's just what pops into my head sometimes when I'm especially disgusted by how something doesn't fit my tastes perfectly. It was all a bit of an exaggeration but most of the time I don't know the mapper behind the level I'm playing and it's easy to depersonify and kinda demonize him subconsciously. Talking with mappers in any capacity really helps with that, so I actually really appreciate that you all chimed in here in response to my well-prepared rants, even if most of us are being barely serious at this point.

By the way, watch and learn how to create areas in techbases that make total sense:

Before you call me the biggest hypocrite that ever lived, in my case the total randomness of these sort of setups is more or less explained by the actual storyline. In that way, it kinda makes more sense than BTSX's maps! :D

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Antroid said:

Dunno, it makes sense to me. I could see such a design legitimately used in an actual industrial structure.

The bottom of the walls is indented to expose the cables so that they can be quickly replaced when one of them fries or something. In an office building, they'd be covered by an easily-removed plinth, but in a tech facility you can save money on such useless fancy.

The lamps are in the indent too because they're here to delineate the corridor rather than to light it. They are low-consumption energy-saving tubes. If the main power goes out, these remain since they are hooked on a secondary generator, so people will not run headfirst into the walls. Putting them in the indented part of the wall means that people won't walk of them.

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Antroid said:

yep, a research base. they're so badass at science they use lasers for lighting. that lower light source is obviously a HeNe laser at 612nm. the exterior green lighting can be anything, but i'd say they went with HeNe at 543nm. both colours from the same primary source with no funky second harmonic overly complex crap? that's what i call scientists leading the way.

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I dont know. I don't personally like BTSX all that much, and I don't totally disagree with your reasoning. In fact, as superfluous as it sounds, almost everytime I play BTSX it makes me feel like wanting to play UAC Ultra 2 instead! I do like when a techbase demonstrates some kind of purpose, and what I've seen in BTSX, is that every techbase pretty much serves every purpose (or none at all), so in a canonical way, it seems ridiculous to have 21 of them.

Still yet, I'm all for people making levels like Pavera did, where the only real purpose was to be a level that's fun. I think that's what players should be striving for in the first place. In the end, it's whether or not a level is fun that holds my attention more than anything else.

I don't think it's fair to call out BTSX for doing techbases wrong. It's their maps and they can do whatever they want with them. The project wasn't really made with any rules. Mappers with similar interests got textures, they used them in their maps, and stayed within vanilla limits, playtested a little, fixed some bugs, and the project was done. It seems unfair to be making rules for techbases after they did their thing, and even more unfair that you're not even part of the project. Like it or hate it, I encourage them to do what they feel is right. I personally think what's best for Doom lies in different qualities than what BTSX tried to achieve, and so I design my levels with those qualities in mind.

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40oz said:

playtested a little

i'm going to kick your ass into the orbit.

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dew said:

i'm going to kick your ass into the orbit.


hahaha well I'm sure some maps didn't need as much testing as others

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