Perdition's Gate Respect.

After the recent release of D2TWID, the ongoing work of TNT: Devilution and the previous releases of DTWID, Plutonia 2 and even the 1994 Tune Up project it got me thinking about Perdition's Gate. It was very nearly an official release but sadly that never happened and now it's fallen into relative obscurity with the occasional namecheck or such in random threads.

I just wanted to bring this great WAD some attention again. I reckon if it had got an official release there'd maybe even be a community project for it by now! It's got some nice new textures in it with a nice sense of development over the previous Final Doom release.

The music is great too, by the way!

What do you lot think? Do you rate it? Do you like the music? Could you make a community sequel/homage?



EDIT: I should mention that BlueFireZ88 did a nice little patch to add the map names and some intermission text to the game. That was good to see. :)

I'd like to see something like a modern memento mori but using the Perditions' gate textures. The E3 stuff didn't really see it's full potential. We have a *lot* of gimmick projects, why not just make normal maps with these cool resources? I think there might be legal issues though, maybe ask Tom Mustaine about it on his site.

I started playing this right before the MegaWAD Club started on Vile Flesh, and that (and now D2TWID) are taking up all my Dooming time, but I'd like to get back to it one of these days.

Marcaek said:

I'd like to see something like a modern memento mori but using the Perditions' gate textures. The E3 stuff didn't really see it's full potential. We have a *lot* of gimmick projects, why not just make normal maps with these cool resources? I think there might be legal issues though, maybe ask Tom Mustaine about it on his site.

Tom Mustaine would gladly release the whole thing for free but it's stuck in copyright Hell as an asset of Atari, Inc.. I would love to see, as Marcaek suggested, "a modern memento mori" using its resources

He also created all the textures so I don't forsee a problem (at least from him). He's always seemed like a really nice bloke. Anyway, the idea of making a sequel or such was just something I wanted to put out there. The point of the thread was more an appreciation post than anything else. It's too bad it missed out on an official release... It deserves the kudos IMHO.

Agreed that it's a pretty cool and entertaining megawad. After all, it prompted me to make an full nomonsters demopack for it among other demos, and that was pretty fun to do.

I've discussed the idea of a sequel to it in the vein of Plutonia 2 and Devilution to a few people, it was after all planned to be the third Final Doom episode.

Theres quite a bit of interest in doing it it seems, especially since the maps in PG are generally short and highly fun.

I'm interested in a return to Perdition's Gate. Short but interesting levels are my thing, even if the third episode smacks of deadline-crunch haste.

And then more Hell Toupée -- with or without the new sprites, this devil's hairpiece was pretty damned fun too.

kmxexii said:

Tom Mustaine would gladly release the whole thing for free but it's stuck in copyright Hell as an asset of Atari, Inc.. I would love to see, as Marcaek suggested, "a modern memento mori" using its resources

I wish I bought this on cd . I have hell 2 pay on cd rom

Youd best remove that link. The last time someone linked to there the whole thread was retardly scrubbed of EVERY SINGLE MENTION of the wad in addition to the link, and there may have been bannings.

For the avoidance of doubt about copyright and things, if a new Perdition's Gate project were launched, I would suggest remaking the new assets from scratch à la Freedoom -- there are surely a few decent texture artists who would contribute (and more than enough eager musicians, as the Plutonia Midi Project demonstrated), and it's not like Perdition's Gate offered anything too complex, graphically.

I think it's possible, anywho.

Ragnor said:

Youd best remove that link. The last time someone linked to there the whole thread was retardly scrubbed of EVERY SINGLE MENTION of the wad in addition to the link, and there may have been bannings.

What link? I certainly never linked to anything. I'm aware of the anal responses that happen around here.

EDIT: I just read over this thread again to see what may have been misconstrued as a link. Some fucker has already ERASED a small mention with not a word to me or in this thread. THAT IS FUCKING RIDICULOUS. I've seen some terrible shit around here but that's just Orwellian. Get over yourself whoever did it. Stealth editing someone's post?! That's just wrong.

Not that I'll get anything but grief but an apology and acknowledgement that what I said and left for posterity has been changed would be good. Really not happy about it. It was a guy's intials FFS.

It was me I added a link but deleted it. Don't mean to get anyone mad! On a side note what about hell 2 pay ?

I've always thought in The Rebirth as some sort of "sequel" to PG. Of course it isn't, but I can't avoid thinking in Perdition's Gate every time I play it. Anyway, I second Jayextee's suggestion to avoid copyright issues.

I would LOVE to see another Memento Mori. Hell, I would spend every waking second of my current unemployment enhancing my mapping skills just so I can contribute or even start such a project.

Never heard of this. Watched a video, seems interesting enough. Basically a "third half" of Final Doom, then?

I'm gonna get really assertive for a second and say that Perdition's Gate is and has always been a huge inspiration for a lot of my mapping background, so I'm just gonna say now that if this get's started, it's very important that the members involved do it right or you're looking to get pages and pages worth of angry posts from me!

Perdition's Gate has very solid layouts, gameplay styles, and a classic look with enough details to keep anything from looking too bare. Every single level is designed very conciously with strong Single Player, violent Cooperative, and fierce Deathmatch in mind (combining the three in individual maps is a lost art unfortunately, and is something that I'm seeking to perfect on my own with UAC Ultra 2). There's a pretty strong balance between tight corridors and wide open battle fields, minute details and large structures, and some usage of "realistic" features that are safely integrated in the map design without interfering with gameplay. There's some pretty awesome utilization of vanilla mapping tricks, such as instantly raising floors, stairbuilding to change bare rooms into an entire obstacle course, and that whole map that gets flooded with nukage when you unlock the floodgates. Not to mention the whole story interludes in between each map that ties everything together into a cohesive plot.

There's a lot of powerful elements in PG's design that would be very difficult to emulate -- hell, even compete with. I don't feel this is something anyone can just pop in and map for. I nominate Esselfortium and Tarnsman to do it all themselves.

Yeah, Tom Mustaine, who was also did stuff in TNT, made Perdition's Gate with the intent of sending it to id for the Final Doom project. THe window of oppurtunity closed before it was finished though, so the guys doing Hell To Pay helped complete Perdition's Gate then sold it commercially with id's permission.

So its like a lost third episode of Final Doom. (And if it did make it in, all three would still be done by Team TNT guys!)

Jayextee said:

For the avoidance of doubt about copyright and things, if a new Perdition's Gate project were launched, I would suggest remaking the new assets from scratch à la Freedoom -- there are surely a few decent texture artists who would contribute (and more than enough eager musicians, as the Plutonia Midi Project demonstrated), and it's not like Perdition's Gate offered anything too complex, graphically.

I think it's possible, anywho.

I think it'd be more practical to just require the original PERDGATE.WAD be used for textures.

I loved Perdition's Gate and I would go as far too say that it's very underrated and in my personal opinion everybody should experience it. I could have sworn I had some demos recorded for some of the maps, but it might have been for Hell 2 Pay. I don't think Wraith's ZDoom wad they made was too good though.

Doomworld has strange policies on copyrighted stuff in general. The PSX Doom TC exists for example.

Is Tom easily contactable? If so people could just ask him if they can use the textures.

kmxexii said:

Tom Mustaine would gladly release the whole thing for free but it's stuck in copyright Hell as an asset of Atari, Inc..

Well, Atari recently went under and sold off all of their properties, didn't they? Obviously that doesn't mean it's fair game, but it does raise the question of who has the rights now.

Demonicus666 said:

It was me I added a link but deleted it. Don't mean to get anyone mad! On a side note what about hell 2 pay ?

No need for you to apologise (at least to me). I can see that your post was edited. I'm actually talking about my second post in this thread (post1212653) Someone has surreptitiously edited a small mention of Tom Mustaine (alluded to only by initials no less!) from my post without any mention of it. Overnight, still no mention or admission. At least, when totalitarian states redact mail you can see the big black marks. No such evidence here. A simple "Edited by mod because..." would have sufficed. I'm sorry to go OT in a thread I started but I can't tell you how angry this makes me. The sad irony is I'm actually working in China to fight against this kind of on line behaviour! I've been talking about the 'freedoms' of the western internet and how I have to use VPN software just to log on to the most innocuous of sites and forums in China. I come on line and find this has happened. It's really, really offensive. It's a silly forum for a silly old game. This isn't Wikileaks, okay. I really feel the mod who did this has overstepped the mark. Moderate yourself!



Anyway, back on topic: I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels that PG still has something to offer and is seen as the third Final Doom episode. I'm especialy pleased by 40oz's post. Pretty passionate dude! Would you consider starting a project based on PG?

Also, I'm not sure of copyright in this instance. If Tom Mustaine created the textures himself and has given permission to share these assets isn't that enough? Especially if nobody knows who owns the rights to the release? Don't the right revert to the original creator? Isn't there enough here to work with at least until (the very slight chance of) a C&D was given? In which case it would only be a matter of replacing some textures, of which there are many in the Doom Community for free...

Shadow Hog said:

Well, Atari recently went under and sold off all of their properties, didn't they? Obviously that doesn't mean it's fair game, but it does raise the question of who has the rights now.

THQ went under and were forced to auction off their assets. I don't know what's been happening with Atari, Inc..

Perdition's Gate is a really great mapset and I love Tom Mustaine's style that said I do feel it has quite a few maps that don't stand up to the rest but I'd say overall it holds up with TNT and MM.

E3 was kinda poor, and really could have used more medium sized maps(with those sexy blue and silver alien textures oh man).

kmxexii said:

THQ went under and were forced to auction off their assets. I don't know what's been happening with Atari, Inc..

THQ went under as well, but that's totally unrelated. I just distinctly recall GAF getting all flustered earlier this year at Atari auctioning off most, if not all, of its assets. (But absolutely no word about who wound up with Blood. *grumble*)

It is a clear victim of shitting out maps to meet a deadline, almost entirely by Sieben and McCandlish, I think. Their Hell to Pay levels were pretty cool, at least.

I was just about to say that, heh

Dragonsbrethren said:

I think it'd be more practical to just require the original PERDGATE.WAD be used for textures.

There's a little problem: Perdition's Gate is not easy to find. If the wad requires perdgate.wad, chances are very few people will be able to play it.

Average said:

Someone has surreptitiously edited a small mention of Tom Mustaine (alluded to only by initials no less!) from my post without any mention of it. Overnight, still no mention or admission. At least, when totalitarian states redact mail you can see the big black marks. No such evidence here. A simple "Edited by mod because..." would have sufficed. I'm sorry to go OT in a thread I started but I can't tell you how angry this makes me. The sad irony is I'm actually working in China to fight against this kind of on line behaviour! I've been talking about the 'freedoms' of the western internet and how I have to use VPN software just to log on to the most innocuous of sites and forums in China. I come on line and find this has happened. It's really, really offensive. It's a silly forum for a silly old game. This isn't Wikileaks, okay. I really feel the mod who did this has overstepped the mark. Moderate yourself!

I agree. There seems to be an issue when it comes to the forums administration. Old timers are apparently free to do what they like with little to no consequences. But when a newcomer breaks the rules, he/she is fucked. I could show some examples, but it's not worth it. Damn, I'm almost sure I (and you) will get a warning because of this.