Doom 2 In Name Only - Now (supsiciously) on a load of gaming articles

No, I don't want you to have a hissy fit, just calm down ffs. Look at the crap you've been speaking to Xaser over the last page; the man's got every right to be pissed at someone modifying his map without permission. And stop with the ranting about following the project thread; projects can be discussed outside of threads in a number of ways, such as PMs and emails, and would have been a better form of communication in this situation instead of your aggressive remarks above. Show your fellow contributors the respect that you have been shown here, like with Map 24 for example.

Alright, sorry, I may have gone a tiny bit out of line during the last couple of pages. Although it doesn't change my opinion on the matter.

I truly do not understand the mindset that tells you "I should not be expected to follow the thread of the project I joined even if I give a damn about my contributions". This is the most baffling part of all this to me, sure you can communicate in other ways, but why would you want to? How are personal messages not worse in every way than a centralized place for all the discussion and announcements where it is all open to the public? If you decide to stop reading the thread, what right do you have to complain about being uninformed? It's not like Eris didn't say that he was going to take the matters of map31 into his own hands after waiting a bit more - look it up, the warning's there. Even the title was urging people to hurry the hell up for a time. I would stop ranting about this but it is as crazy to me as my posts apparently were to Xaser (who I don't think reacted in an adequate way at all - my passive-agressive implied description of what he did from the last post still stands).

Maybe this is a conflict of mentalities. In my mind if you submit a map to the project it implies your permission to use it however the project leader wants unless you specifically prohibit something. You can notice that after multiplayer ammo issues with maps 24 and 29 were pointed out, when I posted to say that I wasn't gonna even bother trying to balance it, I specifically said to not touch any other aspect of my maps - precisely because of this outlook. What I apparently "urged" (in truth, more like reminded) Eris to do with map31 may not have been the most polite and considerate thing, but I feel that the warning in the thread was absolutely enough.

And I am not the least bit proud of the incredible delay my map24 had, but I still think that was quite a different situation. Oh well!

plums said:

Decided to give Map 34 a run.

-Linedef 953 is untagged.

-Lava floor near the end looks kind of weird, I think it's supposed to look floating or something? edit: Just saw that this is already known. I can have a go at fixing it if you want and Joseph Lord doesn't mind.

Oh please go on, im very busy right now, a fire happen in a region of my country and i goin to postuled like voluntary.
And what is the problem with the music??

Well, I'm sure none of us forgot that I spent over a month delaying this project to update MAP22, then said "fuck it."

Xaser said:

I won't be doing anything silly like pulling my map or anything at this point, so no worries there either, I hope.

Whew, thanks, that map is one of the gems of the project

Antroid said:

Every memorable project needs some drama

What? That dumb altercation with Tarns and Marcaek that I caused wasn't enough? :X

Anyway, I PM'd Joseph Lord earlier, apologising for doing the same thing with his map. Same applies to his map, if he did make the changes, we can use those instead of the ErisFix. I don't think I messed up much on that map though.

--

Now, hopefully this ends that quick but sharp episode. We still have a project to finish people :P

Caleb13 and memfis: Thanks for that info, makes things a lot easier

Joseph Lord: The only problem with the music is that the default for MAP34 is the title screen music. I'll just make the track you put with it the title music, it's not like its hugely important.

Eris Falling said:

Anyway, I PM'd Joseph Lord earlier, apologising for doing the same thing with his map.

You are way too soft, comrade.

Eris Falling said:

Beta VII-B - To do list

MAP27: Someone mentioned missing texture on bars - the bars were
invisible from the other side. Unfortunately, I don't know which ones. - ?

The missing bars are in the first big room.

http://imgur.com/CRS8y0y.png

All three sets are invisible from the back. The only one that really matters is the first one with the Soul Sphere.

http://i.imgur.com/Z2RFnjB.png

There's also an error on MAP01 that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned. There are some sector holes near the start on the east side. I don't know if sectors were joined improperly or re-drawn incorrectly, but the two imps on the top of the cliff fall into them and prevent you getting 100%.

http://i.imgur.com/AcGSK80.png
http://i.imgur.com/Lwr6qM5.png
http://i.imgur.com/qcavxoK.png

The third image shows their exact locations in proximity to the tree, just N and NE of it.

If I find anything else, I'll let you know.


I likes squashing bugs, I does.

EffinghamHuffnagel said:

There's also an error on MAP01 that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned. There are some sector holes near the start on the east side. I don't know if sectors were joined improperly or re-drawn incorrectly, but the two imps on the top of the cliff fall into them and prevent you getting 100%.

http://i.imgur.com/AcGSK80.png
http://i.imgur.com/Lwr6qM5.png
http://i.imgur.com/qcavxoK.png

The third image shows their exact locations in proximity to the tree, just N and NE of it.

Woah. And to think I was confident it was linked to a slime trail in that area. I even found out how to trigger it and "fixed" it about 5 betas ago.
Thanks for re-discovering that, and those others too.

I'm gonna try and draw a custom titlepic over the next week or so. Just basic outlines and colors done right now, all the shading and details (so most of the work) left - posting this here just so I can't quietly abandon it later. Maybe I'll put the marine into a more actiony pose, although I like him looking like he was taken by quite a surprise and hasn't reacted yet (and the manc is already firing). Protagonists looking like they're seconds away from inevidable death is always the best in these kinds of pictures.

Thoughts?

The drawing is really cool, but the letters don't fit in with it. Maybe the actual fonts would work.
Great start though! Just be careful with the colour choices, because of the palette

Eris Falling said:

The drawing is really cool, but the letters don't fit in with it. Maybe the actual fonts would work.
Great start though! Just be careful with the colour choices, because of the palette

Well yeah the letters are just there for the purpose of figuring out their placement on the picture in general. I noticed that in the original the word "Doom" is behind the characters so I decided to do that here too, only the "II" will probably be on the side instead of completely blocking the manc's face (which admittedly would've looked hilarious).
And yeah I'll be careful with the colors. Every block of one color is it's own layer so I'll be able to adjust them separately later if they end up translating badly.

Your Titlepic has a nice layout; kind of 90's action cartoon poster style. A giant enemy in front of the hero. Only drawing text free hand on a computer is kind of difficult for everybody.

FireFish said:

Only drawing text free hand on a computer is kind of difficult for everybody.

I'm gonna render the text in 3d all fancy-like with textures and shit so it is nice and solid-looking like the original. It's not gonna be pink either :P

I think something more subtle and based on the original artwork would fit the project better. Something that reflects the concept behind the whole thing, like for example taking the original title picture and removing everything except the name (so it literally 'in name only'), or even just the silhouette of the name.

I'd prefer something graphic-designy and simple myself.

mouldy said:

Something that reflects the concept behind the whole thing

You may notice that I've got a mancubus (with 2 missile launchers) and the marine with a 2-barreled shotgun! Doom _2_, get it eh eh eh?
Anyway, cutting out the name from the original titlepic is easy so that can always be done if Eris decides to go in that direction. I'll just put my titlepic out for anyone to grab if they want it for their wad then - no biggie.

Here is a slightly fixed up version of Joseph Lord's MAP34.

https://www.mediafire.com/?03lexcgaa7z1yzw

Changes:
* The invisibility secret is now tagged properly
* Fixed a missing texture on a linedef
* The self-referencing sector no longer causes HOM. This was fixed simply by using W32-BSP as a nodebuilder, so if you need to rebuild the map for some reason, be aware of that. Currently the effect is an invisible platform; I can't be sure this was the actual intended effect since different ports and nodebuilders can produce different results, and the unfixed version looked like a (buggy) pseudo-3D platform. Here's a screenshot of the current version, doesn't show much due to the low light level.


I haven't played this map fully since fixing it so someone probably should, just to double-check it.

MAP06: Slight possible error with the rockets in the central area, some of them get stuck on the walls when the floor is lowered:


GREAT map btw, I really loved it.

MAP 08:

Tutti Frutti on some step textures, looks like it's because of offsets or maybe lower unpegged.





Out of place green brick texturing:



Possible texture alignment error:



Possible error in trying to get this secret, I think the activation linedef is flipped since I could only lower the sector from outside. Maybe there's a trick to it that I am missing though.

Just started MAP09, it suffers from a problem related to the way vanilla and Chocolate Doom handle save games.

Essentially, when you reload a save, all previously active monsters are no longer active, and any targets are reset. See here for more info: http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Targets_not_preserved_in_saved_games

Normally this isn't a big deal, it's just a bug you accept as a mapper. In MAP09 though, it looks like the monster closets are only triggered near the start of the map. Saving and reloading at certain points can result in a lack of teleporting monsters (the blue key area is as far as I've gotten, but that is one majorly affected spot).

This is a bug that's fixed in most ports, but because you're going for vanilla compatibility, it might be good to try to improve the situation in this map a bit. An easy partial fix might be join the monster activation sectors to other parts of the map where teleporting monsters are important.

I'll keep an eye out for other maps where this situation comes up again.

plums said:

Just started MAP09, it suffers from a problem related to the way vanilla and Chocolate Doom handle save games.

Essentially, when you reload a save, all previously active monsters are no longer active, and any targets are reset. See here for more info: http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Targets_not_preserved_in_saved_games

Normally this isn't a big deal, it's just a bug you accept as a mapper. In MAP09 though, it looks like the monster closets are only triggered near the start of the map. Saving and reloading at certain points can result in a lack of teleporting monsters (the blue key area is as far as I've gotten, but that is one majorly affected spot).

This is a bug that's fixed in most ports, but because you're going for vanilla compatibility, it might be good to try to improve the situation in this map a bit. An easy partial fix might be join the monster activation sectors to other parts of the map where teleporting monsters are important.

I'll keep an eye out for other maps where this situation comes up again.

wow, how come I never heard of that? That could cause problems with some of my maps... I'll have to check. Sounds like a ridiculously exploitable bug.

mouldy said:

wow, how come I never heard of that? That could cause problems with some of my maps... I'll have to check. Sounds like a ridiculously exploitable bug.

It's a problem in any map, and a conniving player could abuse it in many situations, but then they might as well be using IDDQD in some parts. But usually attacking once you've reloaded sets most monsters in motion again. For MAP09, saving in the blue key room means you won't get any monsters teleporting in even if you try to aggro them.

plums said:

It's a problem in any map, and a conniving player could abuse it in many situations, but then they might as well be using IDDQD in some parts. But usually attacking once you've reloaded sets most monsters in motion again. For MAP09, saving in the blue key room means you won't get any monsters teleporting in even if you try to aggro them.

It pretty much renders any teleport trap obsolete if you save and load just before activating it. I just tested it on map 28 and got a savegame buffer overrun, so I guess it wont be an issue for that map at least.

Chocolate Doom does support extended savegames though, under the "compatibility" section in setup.

Right, looks like the only problem this will cause on any of my maps is map 20, where the cyberdemons need to be woken earlier in the map before teleporting in at the end. Pretty simple to fix though.

In fact, here is a new version of map20 with this problem fixed:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/f5c55r2h2coyxc8/d2ino-map20-apr18.zip

Sorry for all the multiple posts, I figure it's best this way for new maps/new issues. If anyone objects I'll stick to edits when I have the last post.

MAP09: In the western cache of stuff behind key switches, the key switch linedefs are untagged. They need to be, since they're switch types and not a door types. The switches in the other two caches are tagged, each key colour shares a tag between the two caches, I assume this is intentional though.

Also it's interesting to note that W32-BSP doesn't work properly for building this map's nodes. ZenNode seems to work fine.

Technical issues aside, I really enjoyed this map. I got into some real tough spots by not having a proper arsenal of weapons. This does encourage a "correct" path despite the non-linear layout, but I think that's fine, I scraped through nonetheless.

plums said:

MAP09: In the western cache of stuff behind key switches, the key switch linedefs are untagged. They need to be, since they're switch types and not a door types. The switches in the other two caches are tagged, each key colour shares a tag between the two caches, I assume this is intentional though.

That'll probably be my fault, but yeah the linked tags was intentional. Whoever fixes it, don't forget to fix the borders either side of the switches as well.

I wouldn't worry about the multiple posts, its not like every error you find requires a response, and it lets us know you found something new. Cheers for the testing, man

MAP09: one last tiny thing, sector 185 should probably not be secret. It's redundant and fairly easy to skip over. Sectors 928/133 are also secret and one of them is somewhat redundant as well, but the player will be sure to get to both of them at least.

MAP10: Big problem here, you can't leave through this door because there's another usable linedef too close by. This is the side after getting the blue key.


And then the tiniest tutti texture, in the slime.

postcount++
MAP11: One health bonus gets stuck on a door somehow when it raises, because it's too close to the door/wall. Sorry for low light screenshot, I think it's thing 587. Others didn't get stuck but maybe move them out anyhow if you move this one?


Strange map, cyberdemon was virtually harmless but then the damaging sectors everywhere made up for it.

MAP13: more small tutti frutti

Long week of RL behind me. Now to get back to important things.

-----
MAP03
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The secret area to the SE, sector 78 - I entered the area off the bridge at a run, which means I went completely over the secret sector when I landed. If I hadn't needed to pick up ammo, I wouldn't have activated the secret at all. A very unlikely occurrence, but still possible.

Doors to the exit room are not tagged Blue Key open/close, so the Blue Key is never used.

Can't get 100% kills. There is a Spectre on the W side, in sector 219, the teleport sector W of linedef tag 26, hidden behind a wall that can only be opened from the inside. It's a Deathmatch start. The Spectre is standing in a teleport, but it's deaf and facing W, so it will never activate and use the teleport.

The hidden Blur Sphere behind the waterfall in sector 267; it's not tagged as secret. Was it supposed to be?

-------
MAP05
-------
Sector 60, tagged as a secret, has a nukage floor. Since this is Vanilla and not Boom, you can only tag a sector as secret OR damage, but not both. Since the sector doesn't cause damage, the floor should probably be changed to something non-nukage or make the floor damaging but put the Soul Sphere on a larger 8-unit high platform and make that platform the secret (a platform large enough so you have to get up on the platform and activate the secret before you can grab the sphere). Sector 60 is also 136 units high which means the nukage trim at the bottom of the PIPE6 wall texture is 8 units above the nukage floor.

Sector 46 next to it is also not tagged as damaging.

I have to say, the cramped feeling of the tunnels and the rooms fits the level title beautifully (and I really appreciate falling liquid that isn't impassable and you can actually walk through), but every time I tried to blaze through it I kept dying. I thought, "A Baron, seven Hell Knights, a bunch of Cacos and a lot of Spectres in dark rooms? This level is WAY too hard for MAP05." Then one time through I got a phone call just as I grabbed the Red Key. I figured I was going to die so I just stood there and let the game run as I talked. A funny thing happened. I didn't die. I realized that one group of Spectres had run into the area just below the Red Key room and I could pick them off from there. A second group couldn't get up the diagonal stairs to the Red Key room (16 unit-high steps and the Cacos could only enter one at a time), so I could pick them off, and the third set couldn't get into the diagonal hallway (sector 107, also 16 unit height difference), again, letting me pick them off. In the last room if you hit the switch to release the Spectres and the Cacos, then run back into the curved tunnel, you're pretty safe. The width of the tunnel is 64 units. They can enter the first section of the tunnel, but not make the turn. You can pick them all off or get them to in-fight pretty easily. Playing slowly and patiently peeking around corners let me kill things one at a time, even the two in-your-face-Hell-Knights-with-nowhere-to-run just past the Red Key door. So - having monsters too tough for a normal MAP05 but not letting them attack you or letting you kill them from a distance (the Baron with rockets from across the room and out the door) - that requires you to think, strategize and play differently. That's damn nice design work. At least I hope it was intentionally designed that way. If it was just chance, then the author should probably just smile, nod his head and say "Yep. Glad you got what I intended."