All these years later there's still nothing better than Doom

I thought doom 3 ripped off system shock 2's audio and video logs. Which in turn System Shock 2 ripped off from System Shock 1.

Well, if you start doing regressions over which game ripped off which, you'll eventually end up with stick and stones, at the start of it all.

Well, there's a difference between being inspired by, and blatantly ripping off something. Like in doom 3 the audio logs were a blatant copy of those earlier games.

Media logs are ridiculously generic in the genre. Have you not read or watched any sci-fi before video games? Or is this going to be some weird logic where things that existed for centuries before video games only start being "ripped off" when a video game happens to do it after a previous video game did it?

Scientists and portal experiments... You guys have got to be kidding me.

Phml said:

Media logs are ridiculously generic in the genre. Have you not read or watched any sci-fi before video games?

Nope, im not a sci-fi nerd.

dew said:

Nah, I kinda get what he means. The original games are certainly less slaughterish and overwhelming than what many people remember from the 90s when they played on a friend's computer with keyboard only, wondering what inhuman pr0 skillz they need to obtain to learn strafing properly.

But he's wrong with his initial remark when he says "Also horde gameplay is not one of Doom's core strengths...", because it doesn't matter that modern high count hordes weren't present in the original games. This community has clearly proven that horde gameplay is where Doom absolutely excels. The engine supports it and supports it well.

I guess the way I feel is that trying to recapture the Doom magic would be best done by imitating the smaller-scale, more spread out combat of Doom 1 and letting horde gameplay develop over time out of that if it can (just like with Doom itself), instead of intentionally imitating slaughter wads and ending up with some overly "gamey" series of repetitive arena battles, or worse, a Serious Sam clone (or, god forbid, Legacy of Suffering!). One of my pet hates with modern shooter games is breaking up the levels into discrete fights, whereas with traditional Doom maps there are occasional showpiece battles but monsters are also sprinkled here and there all over the map so combat flows continuously instead of being heavily segmented. Although it's not first person, Mass Effect 2 comes to mind as a particularly egregious offender, so segmented it couldn't even stop itself from telegraphing its own ambushes (imagine how short Shepard's career would have been if he were attacked by the Collectors in a place with no chest-high walls and packing crates).

Also I said hordes were rare, not completely nonexistent (although I admit I had completely forgotten about map16).

Don't forget that Doom pretty much suffered a major gameplay-breaking event when WASD+mouse controls became commonplace, and when techniques like wallrunning, circlestrafing, SR-50, rocket jumping etc. became mainstream. These, combined, allow even a medium-skilled player to literally RIP AND TEAR through Doom, and even handle Doom II with ease (only Final Doom ups the ante again, somewhat, but the real ante is way, way beyond even Final Doom).

IMO, the only way to make the original Doom episodes challenging again (other than trying Nightmare or Tyson...or Nightmare Tyson), is to deliberately handicap oneself by playing through less efficient control schemes (keyboard, gamepad).

If the mouse + WASD is like a grizzled veterand riding on a hi-tech hover scooter....the keyboard and gamepad is more like being a 500 lbs Walmart fatso riding one of those motorized shopping carts ;-)



With those controls, even a "horde" composed of 10-12 imps and zombies can tear you a new one if you simply try to jump them and go all Muhammad Ali on their ass. You really need to plan ahead and move more cautiously and strategically, which changes the game entirely, IMO.

The good news is that the player doesn't have the immediate feeling that he's deliberately handicapped, but can gradually adapt to the less efficient controls (ofc, switching to mouse and WASD again after a stretch of gamepadding and keyboarding is like night and day...)

doomgargoyle said:

Nope, im not a sci-fi nerd.

So, your audio logs point is completely void, in other words? :P

I'd say one of the smallest issues in modern FPS is the 'ripoff' factor. Many games actually feel quite unique and distant from one another, the issue being that often results in sub-par gameplay. Devs are constantly trying new things, for better or for worse.

The whole 'hordes in doom' thing is crazy, as mentioned Doom 2 faces the player with 20+ enemies all the friggin' time, especially in some of the later maps - But I agree, it's great that the gameplay isn't brought to the 'mindless' level like some argue Serious Sam is at.

A good mix of hordey bits and creepy, slow paced bits is nice. Doom 2 (and a lesser extent, D1) achieves this perfectly and I'd like to see other games follow suit to some degree.

Maes said:

Don't forget that Doom pretty much suffered a major gameplay-breaking event when WASD+mouse controls became commonplace, and when techniques like wallrunning, circlestrafing, SR-50, rocket jumping etc. became mainstream. These, combined, allow even a medium-skilled player to literally RIP AND TEAR through Doom, and even handle Doom II with ease (only Final Doom ups the ante again, somewhat, but the real ante is way, way beyond even Final Doom).

IMO, the only way to make the original Doom episodes challenging again (other than trying Nightmare or Tyson...or Nightmare Tyson), is to deliberately handicap oneself by playing through less efficient control schemes (keyboard, gamepad).

If the mouse + WASD is like a grizzled veterand riding on a hi-tech hover scooter....the keyboard and gamepad is more like being a 500 lbs Walmart fatso riding one of those motorized shopping carts ;-)

With those controls, even a "horde" composed of 10-12 imps and zombies can tear you a new one if you simply try to jump them and go all Muhammad Ali on their ass. You really need to plan ahead and move more cautiously and strategically, which changes the game entirely, IMO.

The good news is that the player doesn't have the immediate feeling that he's deliberately handicapped, but can gradually adapt to the less efficient controls (ofc, switching to mouse and WASD again after a stretch of gamepadding and keyboarding is like night and day...)

I use WASD+mouse and circle-strafing but I never use wallrunning, SR-50, or rocket jumping. While I find Doom 1 easy, I find both Doom II and E4 to be decently challenging and Whispers of Satan put my UV skills to the test quite a few times. There are certainly ways of making old-school gameplay challenging--vicious, well-hidden ambushes, judicious use of the heavier Doom II numbers in small numbers but difficult positions, strategically placing barriers or damaging floors to obstruct circle-strafing, taking away the SSG, etc. If all else fails, this will always increase the difficulty of even the gentlest wads:


Consume one bottle 15 minutes before playing.


But then I don't necessarily play to be pushed to my limits every time. I enjoyed and thought Visions of Eternity was a great wad even though my health and armor were almost always well above 100% while I was playing it.

I must reiterate how much taking away the SSG changes the dynamics of gameplay. With no SSG enemies like cacos can be a serious threat through their ability to tank your fire and box you in.

Phml said:

Media logs are ridiculously generic in the genre. Have you not read or watched any sci-fi before video games?

And before that, or in genres set before Sci-Fi settings, letters, journals, diaries, personal notes etc get found instead.

Enjay said:

And before that, or in genres set before Sci-Fi settings, letters, journals, diaries, personal notes etc get found instead.

We all know those are just ripoffs of cave paintings....

Cavemen were just ripping off mother nature. Humanity is embarrassing.

Woolie Wool said:

I must reiterate how much taking away the SSG changes the dynamics of gameplay. With no SSG enemies like cacos can be a serious threat through their ability to tank your fire and box you in.

Yeah, taking away the ssg and power weapons against mid/high tier monsters really slows down the pace of gameplay, making it feel like you're not accomplishing anything, imo. I don't care if a map is easy or hard, just as long as it's fun.

For the next Doom game to succeed - and Carmack jumping ship hasn't exactly inspired confidence in it - it's going to need to rip its own history off. They should sit back, play the original game for a while, browse the Doom websites and see what actually made Doom popular.

They should also watch the special edition of Aliens on Blu-Ray. In fact, we should all do that. People who don't like Aliens probably think the Range Rover Evoque is a real car, and not some nancy-boy's posing machine. (Go ahead and pose while your massive diesel engine corrodes our childrens' lungs.)

Anyway... it must be harder than it looks to create a fast-paced, exciting game with easy controls, streamlined objectives and decent monsters. Not even id Software have done it since.

MajorRawne said:

Anyway... it must be harder than it looks to create a fast-paced, exciting game with easy controls, streamlined objectives and decent monsters.

But today you can't build an AAA title on these premises, it will be panned as shallow and "arcade-y", which apparently doesn't sell. Yeah, I know about indy gaming but even those don't always get it right, especially with FPS games. Balancing between visuals, gameplay and depth is hard, and you can only have two our of the three.

Doom sacrificed depth for visuals (in its era) and gameplay. Today's AAA FPS obviously give an enormous weight to visuals, but IMO they all make the mistake in trying too hard to build depth where there's none: why do you think there are all those scripted cutscenes, long intros etc. ? Gameplay is almost a secondary consideration, and nowadays it's generic and samey between different FPSs to a ridiculous degree.

You could consider Fallout 3 a "FPS with depth" done right, as the emphasis isn't really on real-time gameplay. A FPS without good visuals but with depth and gameplay...that'd probably be some esoteric/indy game.

Doomkid92 said:

I really would like a game that hits the same spot as Doom did (does), but since no such thing exists, I like the other non-Doomy stuff like Farcry 3, or even Portal and Portal 2, since they aren't trying to be Doom all over again. They're fun in a far less "classic" way than Doom, though I will admit in 10 years I'll probably still be playing Doom, and maybe not those games. Doom is my favorite game of all time if I had to pick just one.

Street Fighter 2 is a tiny bit older than Doom, yet I feel it's still the best fighting game by miles and hasn't really aged at all. Like Doom, the control is ultra-fluid and any gamer of any age can pick it up and play, and yet hours of devotion will make you exponentially better. These games have an insanely high skill cap which adds so much replayablility.

exactly this. what i like so much about doom is its movement and control. sure the marine runs inhumanly fast but still, when i'm playing i feel like i'm right in the game, while most modern games are a crawl in comparison. i have a collection of modern shooters, i've just built myself a haswell pc and now i'm wondering what i'm doing with that box as most of my gaming time is still dedicated to doom :p

Where Doom puts its focus, instead, is on the movement. Even without a jump button Doom feels slick and fast, and it needs to because the core of the game is evasion. Doom features enemies that attack in hand to hand, that use conventional firearms that will hit you if you stand still and projectile weapons that you can see coming and actively dodge. This combination demands that the player stays moving in a way that you won’t find in a Call of Duty or Bioshock-style game, where the enemy will punish you for leaving cover by enthusiastically murdering you to death. Doom lets you run rings round the enemy, literally, and is more fun for it.

phil hartup nailed it. great article.

dew said:

Plutonia does not establish anything like horde gameplay. Go 2 It is a lightweight version of Punisher, which predates Plutonia by a year.

Just saying that this is not true. idgames date of punisher is wrong, it came out after plutonia.
Source : http://5years.doomworld.com/interviews/dariocasali/

Maes said:
But today you can't build an AAA title on these premises, it will be panned as shallow and "arcade-y", which apparently doesn't sell.

I disagree that it wont sell. I just feel that nobody is thinking about it in the right way. Take dooms core game play of semi open ended maps and gamey design elements like key cards and add a very crazy compulsion loop would be plenty.

A very skilled team of people can take Unreal 4 right now and make a doom clone where you play rated coop or solo games to earn money to buy tons of unique gear, locked chests, crafting and anything else that compliments a solid compulsion loop and cash in on it.

You could even add risk vs reward elements such as certain maps that can only be completed with a team of 4 people who work together with an entry fee just to get into the map.

The only problem is that nobody is even trying when it very clearly CAN work.

TheCastle said:

I disagree that it wont sell. I just feel that nobody is thinking about it in the right way. Take dooms core game play of semi open ended maps and gamey design elements like key cards and add a very crazy compulsion loop would be plenty.

A very skilled team of people can take Unreal 4 right now and make a doom clone where you play rated coop or solo games to earn money to buy tons of unique gear, locked chests, crafting and anything else that compliments a solid compulsion loop and cash in on it.

You could even add risk vs reward elements such as certain maps that can only be completed with a team of 4 people who work together with an entry fee just to get into the map.

The only problem is that nobody is even trying when it very clearly CAN work.

Isnt what you described Borderlands? I didnt like that game btw.

doomgargoyle said:

Isnt what you described Borderlands? I didnt like that game btw.

You are correct that Borderlands is a highly successful first person shooter with a very complex compulsion loop but you are not correct in assuming that borderlands would play anything like what I described above, Or rather, is anything like what I have in mind.

TheCastle said:

trying

And there's your killer.

TheCastle said:

CAN work.

No, it MUST work, otherwise it's not deemed worthy of risking a single penny on it (unless some good soul codes it for free, handles all marketing expenses, and pays the account manager's salary for 3 months out of his own pockets). THEN some publisher MIGHT give it a shot.

TheCastle works at Nerve Software and is probably quite aware of how game companies function.

Gez said:

TheCastle works at Nerve Software and is probably quite aware of how game companies function.

I am between jobs atm and looking for work. With that said I have a pretty solid vision of what could be done to make a doom style FPS that would work in today's market that wouldn't require a large team to pull off.

TheCastle said:

I am between jobs atm and looking for work. With that said I have a pretty solid vision of what could be done to make a doom style FPS that would work in today's market that wouldn't require a large team to pull off.

A very prettified GZDoom branch with blooming and regen health? :-)

I really wish there was a GZDoom with polymer capabilities like with EDuke32. :P

TheCastle said:

I have a pretty solid vision of what could be done to make a doom style FPS that would work in today's market that wouldn't require a large team to pull off.

Many people have, either professionals, amateurs or laic players. Each of them (the visions) might turn out as successful or as a fail. I'm very interested what exactly you'd think, with your experience. Would you mind disclosing and telling us more? For the reasons I've described at the beginning of this post, I don't think you have a reason to think that it's better to keep your vision as a business secret.

Avoozl said:

I really wish there was a GZDoom with polymer capabilities like with EDuke32. :P

Isn't GZDoom laggy enough? :)

TheCastle said:

I am between jobs atm and looking for work. With that said I have a pretty solid vision of what could be done to make a doom style FPS that would work in today's market that wouldn't require a large team to pull off.

If you would like to put together a team to build such FPS, count me in. :)

j4rio said:

Just saying that this is not true. idgames date of punisher is wrong, it came out after plutonia.
Source : http://5years.doomworld.com/interviews/dariocasali/

I stand corrected. Not sure how to fix my previous claim. :)

I guess that means Plutonia did help establish horde gameplay, as it was a stepping stone between proto-stuff like Suburbs and the full monty like Punisher and all the HR faves.

doomgargoyle said:

If you would like to put together a team to build such FPS, count me in. :)

Same here. I'd love to do whatever I can to make it a reality. I know a few names here who would also be extremely beneficial to the production of such a thing.