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Memfis

Would you map if you couldn't show your maps to anyone?

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Taking the fame argument from the mappers block thread to the extreme.

edit: I wouldn't obviously.

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Long ago (back in the '90s) before I had an Internet connection, I made several maps that I never released.

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I was basically in the same boat as fraggle. I started mapping when I didn't have an internet connection, and finished a few maps (all but one are gone unfortunately). I think I posted my first map at Skulltag around '05 or '06.

I have no doubt in my mind that I would continue to map if I had no way of sharing them. I'm too addicted to it now :P

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Since I primarily make Deathmatch maps, I of course need another person to have fun in them with! At the same time, like Mechadon said, I love mapping and I'd have to make them every now and then even if a soul wouldn't see them. It's fun to see a 128x128 plain box become a whole living breathing environment of it's own!

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I more than likely would, if only to mess around create stupid personal stuff. Similar to Fraggle, when I first discovered DoomBuilder in 06', I made several maps that never really saw the light of day.

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I'm going to make the worst maps possible.

I won't show them to anyone. I might stream to show them though, which still stands that no one will see them :)

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I did: Crosfire, Entryway (1.2), TheGate also map03 of Endgame was about 70% from my pre-internet days.

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I actually have like 30-40 maps that I'll probably never release (yes, they are shit). But anyway, I feel that mapping is like some sort of "therapy", I enjoy it, even if I'm still not good enough. There's something about creating "virtual worlds" that just makes me feel good ("hey, look at that tech base over there! I made it!"). It's cool.

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Probably. It's nice when someone appreciates it, but mapping is just fun and for me at least, playing my own map from time to time isn't so different from replaying any other one that I've explored enough to know inside and out.

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Honestly, probably not. If it wasn't for there being a community when I emerged from under my rock in 2002, my interest in Doom would have died out. Part of the fun in making a map is knowing I'll put it online and see what people think.

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I've thought about this before and if I'm being completely honest I don't think I would. I enjoy more about the mapping process than just releasing it online and the reaction it has but it would feel less fulfilling if I knew that aside from when I run through it myself my work would go unused. Some aspects would become pointless endeavours as well, like secret areas, which you'd obviously know the location of.

I don't think this has any implication over whether or not someone fails at mapping though. Must be another reason for you Memfis :-p

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Yes. In the 90's i made a bunch of maps with custom textures, monsters and weapons, that never saw the light of day. Visually they looked great but it wasn't easy for me to get stuff online back then. I map and mod now and still, to this day, have never released a single map. I churn art stuff out all day long at work and have to do repeated revisions on stuff that isn't mine. For some reason I'm just not in the mood to go through the same thing on my free time. My current project still has years to go because I don't want to rush it and i just want to relax and enjoy the ride at a leisurely pace.

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If I mapped for other people I'd probably finish the thirty or forty scraps I have... mostly I'm satisfied to see whether a texture combination in my head works out or with the challenge of drawing stuff at a non-orthogonal angle, or a particular trap, and never find the need to turn that experiment into a full map. there are probably a hundred thousand maps with one good idea + filler and I don't want to be the one to make you play more, lol

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Would you map if you couldn't show your maps to anyone?

Yes. tl;dr version - I think I actually would, even in this extreme situation (but wouldn't spend it as much time as I do, then). Simply as a hobby.

I play various Doom wads, and have fun with them. I don't need to record demos or videos to show anyone, because I enjoy the playing itself, obviously. But personally, I have it similar with my Doom editing, too. I can do it just for my joy, based on a momental impulse - planning big concepts, mapping, coding, making or selecting resources. I can have fun - and gain experience - even by doing things just on myself.

I simply imagine it would be great if I made what I had in mind. If so, if I managed to make (complete) something that seemed good to me, I'd release it for the public - to give my well done and effort-taking work some meaningful result, some use for the people in the community.

But I also know that my plan might not succeed, and the result of my work might not turn out well. In that case, I abandon the work (usually before I actually complete it, or get far in the development). I don't show it to anyone, I don't try to "recycle" it - but I don't regret anyway. Because during the creation, I was lead by my enthusiasm, a very satisfying feeling which was worth it, at least. And also, I've gained a new valuable experience how to not make a good wad.

If I totally never could show my maps to anyone (or other results of my Doom-related editing), I thing it would stay my hobby anyway. Probably I would reorganize my time to spend less time/effort on it, and more on useful things, but I wouldn't abandon the mapping/editing. At least that's how I feel it for now. I'm a student and have quite a lot of free time for doing things I enjoy.

You know - the slight possibility that my creative work will be enjoyed by other people, makes a part of my motivation (that's also why I'd like to improve). But my inner enthusiasm for Doom also takes an important role, and I think that even bigger.


Some months ago, I've contributed 3 of my older unfinished maps to Jack101's Project Uber (project for utter map scraps). These were not my only scrapped maps, not by far. But they were the only ones with at least something a bit working in them. The project seems halted for now, and anyway, I doubt Jack101 would find my scraps useful without doing a complete overhaul.

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Depends what you call mapping. I can and do open the editor and draw stuff, even make genuine attempts at whole levels; but if I don't force myself to care about other people, there just won't be the same level of effort. Too easy to fall into the trap of thinking something is good enough, settling into safe patterns. Yet despite those feelings being genuine, once I listen to outside feedback the resulting map tends to be much better even for me personally.

Eventually, I think I would give up entirely. There isn't much I enjoy in the mapping process... Drawing levels with a pencil on grid paper and sketching out interesting gameplay situations is actually much more fun than opening the editor.

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If I was stuck on a desert island with a computer and no internet connection, I'd still map and I'd still compose music. Actually I'd probably accomplish more of it without the distractions of IRC and stuff :P

At the same time, though, the collaborative process with other mappers and playtesters is part of the enjoyment for me, so there'd be something missing from it. I've spent ages working on maps and projects only to scrap them without a release, though, and don't feel much regret over it. There's a part of me that really dislikes having to release something, because then I can't keep making changes to it.

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I remember having a shoot-em-up construction kit on the amiga back in the day that I spent countless hours messing about with. Just the opportunity of making my own version of a pre-existing game was enough incentive for me, and considering the amount of time I spent playing those original doom maps to death I'd have jumped at the chance to make more of them, just to have more doom to play.

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I would keep mapping if no one ended up seeing the results. I've already been doing so for a fair number of years. I have far more projects that I've made sitting on various hard drives than I have released. Ideas come to me from every now and then and I'll write those down, but I don't usually have enough free time to do much with them.

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purist said:

I don't think this has any implication over whether or not someone fails at mapping though. Must be another reason for you Memfis :-p

No, I'm pretty sure that this is exactly it in my case at least. Of course I won't ever finish anything great if all I want is to impress people. The driving force should be coming from somewhere else, like maybe you should actually have a passion for mapping or something.

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Phml said:

There isn't much I enjoy in the mapping process... Drawing levels with a pencil on grid paper and sketching out interesting gameplay situations is actually much more fun than opening the editor.

Nonsense! :D (I'm speaking for myself)
As a kid, I liked to draw pictures and mazes on paper, it could entertain me for ages. I don't find it exciting anymore. Pencil and paper lack an interactivity and dynamics, which a computer can provide and which make the fun. Nothing is like when you draw something in an editor, then click "Test map" button and you see the result of your work in action! Applies also for other creative work than mapping, for example programming and making graphics.

Memfis said:

Of course I won't ever finish anything great if all I want is to impress people. The driving force should be coming from somewhere else, like maybe you should actually have a passion for mapping or something.

I thought that every Doomworld member who actively makes maps has a passion for Doom (at least). It should be enough to enjoy messing with various kinds of things around Doom, including mapping, as much as the person likes (I don't say "always" or "everything" Doom-related).

So Memfis, why do you actually make maps? You didn't really make a clear statement about yourself. Those lots of maps you've created manage to be highly entertaining for many people, and I know you're a very active Doomer not only in mapping.

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Honestly I would, just to see what I coud come up with, if not else.

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A very small percentage of my finished maps are released.

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Nonsense!


Actually, I hear you. There's nothing like that moment when it comes to life. But the building process, the actual drawing of lines, moving vertices around, adjusting sector heights and linedef actions back and forth... Just plain tedious. It's the whole spending time on translating those perfect imaginary concepts into reality, into architecture. My mind has already moved on to the next cool idea, but here I am, stuck doing busywork on dimensions, colors and such; and the result is never as neat as I envisioned it. Don't get me started on the texture choices, resource hunting, etc..

At first it was fun because I didn't know the outcome so there was definitely that interactivity you mention. But I think everyone develops an intuitive feel for how things play out, as they make more and more maps. At this point if I draw a level on paper I can envision how it's going to look and how it's going to play pretty accurately. Leaving just the tedious, unrewarding busywork. While playtesting is still a blast, there's so much great maps from other people out there (and always more and more coming) I find it more rewarding to sit back and enjoy their work.

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scifista42 said:

...Applies also for other creative work than mapping, for example programming and making graphics.

And 3d Modeling. Ah, what a treat. It is so rewarding for me that gaining praise for my works falls very far behind the reward of just finishing a fully textured and animated model of a doom monster, object or item.

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In the early days I made maps to play with my son. But he is grown up now and no longer has any interest in it.
Or I should say his family keeps him busy.

So, I just tinker around creating new worlds for myself. :)

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NiuHaka said:

And 3d Modeling. Ah, what a treat. .....


'Speaking' thereof, whatever happened to the Doom Ascension project ?
It started with such promise.

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