Thoughts on violence/combat

Enemies ought to react differently depending on where they're hit. A fast running archvile or revenant could say, be temporarily stunned or disabled by shooting them in the lower torso. Headshots--not necessarily one-hit-and-they're-dead headshots--should be an option for most (if not all) enemies so that ammo conservation and precise aiming would have a real payoff.

Blood that pours out of wounds (not excessively though) would be a good indicator of how damaged they are, which is particularly useful for higher tier baddies. Enemies on the verge of death could slow down and attack more weakly, although some could perhaps go into a "rage mode" if they're heavily wounded for more than a few seconds, whereby their speed and attacks become more aggressive.

Gibs should be dynamic, allowing you to blow chunks off an enemy rather than have their entire body explode. The new Shadow Warrior allows you to slice enemies in several ways and a similar approach could make mowing down Doom monsters especially satisfying.

The actual amount of blood should be no more than necessary, and while gibs ought to be detailed--and corpses ought to be gibbable--it should be kept in perspective so that it delivers satisfaction but doesn't feel gratuitous, at least no more so than the original Doom did back in 1993.

The sacrificial imagery from Doom/Doom2/Doom 64 was barely present in Doom 3, so I think we ought to see much more of that. Whether such props should be gibbable is questionable, but I would gear towards yes, since it would be silly to fire a rocket or BFG at one and have it just swing back and forth ragdoll style.

GoatLord said:

Enemies ought to react differently depending on where they're hit. A fast running archvile or revenant could say, be temporarily stunned or disabled by shooting them in the lower torso. Headshots--not necessarily one-hit-and-they're-dead headshots--should be an option for most (if not all) enemies so that ammo conservation and precise aiming would have a real payoff.

Blood that pours out of wounds (not excessively though) would be a good indicator of how damaged they are, which is particularly useful for higher tier baddies. Enemies on the verge of death could slow down and attack more weakly, although some could perhaps go into a "rage mode" if they're heavily wounded for more than a few seconds, whereby their speed and attacks become more aggressive.

Gibs should be dynamic, allowing you to blow chunks off an enemy rather than have their entire body explode. The new Shadow Warrior allows you to slice enemies in several ways and a similar approach could make mowing down Doom monsters especially satisfying.

The actual amount of blood should be no more than necessary, and while gibs ought to be detailed--and corpses ought to be gibbable--it should be kept in perspective so that it delivers satisfaction but doesn't feel gratuitous, at least no more so than the original Doom did back in 1993.

The sacrificial imagery from Doom/Doom2/Doom 64 was barely present in Doom 3, so I think we ought to see much more of that. Whether such props should be gibbable is questionable, but I would gear towards yes, since it would be silly to fire a rocket or BFG at one and have it just swing back and forth ragdoll style.

I totally agree with lot's of this. While Doom 3 wasn't necessarily a bad game, one of my main problems was that it failed to replicate the feeling and atmosphere of the original Doom games well. In fact, most of the time, it felt like they just took a level from Halo, pasted in demons, made it a little darker, and called it Doom 3. I also would like the enemy designs to resemble the original Doom 1 and 2 designs a bit more. And many details in the trailer lead me to realize that they may actually be incredibly realistic versions of the monsters from Doom 1 and 2.

The corpses should not disintegrate. I loved observing the aftermath of carnage in early Doom games, all that disgusting mass of dead demon flesh. Fuck, it would be awesome if wounds from BFG and plasma gun would leave faint smoking.

The gore in TNO was amazing, Id should improve that.

GoatLord said:

Enemies ought to react differently depending on where they're hit. A fast running archvile or revenant could say, be temporarily stunned or disabled by shooting them in the lower torso. Headshots--not necessarily one-hit-and-they're-dead headshots--should be an option for most (if not all) enemies so that ammo conservation and precise aiming would have a real payoff.

Blood that pours out of wounds (not excessively though) would be a good indicator of how damaged they are, which is particularly useful for higher tier baddies. Enemies on the verge of death could slow down and attack more weakly, although some could perhaps go into a "rage mode" if they're heavily wounded for more than a few seconds, whereby their speed and attacks become more aggressive.

Gibs should be dynamic, allowing you to blow chunks off an enemy rather than have their entire body explode. The new Shadow Warrior allows you to slice enemies in several ways and a similar approach could make mowing down Doom monsters especially satisfying.

The actual amount of blood should be no more than necessary, and while gibs ought to be detailed--and corpses ought to be gibbable--it should be kept in perspective so that it delivers satisfaction but doesn't feel gratuitous, at least no more so than the original Doom did back in 1993.

The sacrificial imagery from Doom/Doom2/Doom 64 was barely present in Doom 3, so I think we ought to see much more of that. Whether such props should be gibbable is questionable, but I would gear towards yes, since it would be silly to fire a rocket or BFG at one and have it just swing back and forth ragdoll style.

I don't know man. Gibbable corpses, destructible props, rage mode, head shots that do more damage than body shots, sounds pretty Brutal Doomish to me. Doom purists might throw shit fits over that stuff.

On a more serious note, I would like dismemberment, exploding heads, non disintegrating corpses, permanent blood, and I want all enemies to be gibbable.

It may sound like Brutal Doom, but it doesn't have to be as insane as Brutal Doom. They could be done tastefully and really add to gameplay.

I know it's not happening in current gen but fingers crossed for monsters turning inside out-gibbing. :(

I think a combination of scripting--such as for the specific instances in which it happens and where--could be combined with some rudimentary physics to create a good approximation. It's been 20 years since Doom; I think it should be possible by now, to make 3D gore similar to the original sprite work.

doom_is_great said:

On a more serious note, I would like dismemberment, exploding heads, non disintegrating corpses, permanent blood, and I want all enemies to be gibbable.

Interestingly enough, Doom 3 was supposed to have all those things.

My thoughts on the combat is that it needs to be the complete opposite of what Doom 3 was. Doom 3's combat was slow and boring. The new Doom's combat needs to be hard and fast. The guns need to be loud, the explosions need to be loud, the demons need to roar, and Doomguy needs to be fast. Not as fast as in Classic Doom, but much faster than he was in Doom 3. The monsters should be fast as well. Except maybe some zombies and the bigger enemies like the baron, hell knight, and cybie.

One of most disappointing stuff in Doom 3 was the fact that most demons disappear in ashes upon death. I wanted to see their bodies on the floor covered in blood.

Do bodies still de-materialize in modern games? How is this usually handled?

Kaskaum said:

One of most disappointing stuff in Doom 3 was the fact that most demons disappear in ashes upon death. I wanted to see their bodies on the floor covered in blood.

While I really dislike this, I think it rather fits the imp.

doom_is_great said:

I don't know man. Gibbable corpses, destructible props, rage mode, head shots that do more damage than body shots, sounds pretty Brutal Doomish to me. Doom purists might throw shit fits over that stuff.

On a more serious note, I would like dismemberment, exploding heads, non disintegrating corpses, permanent blood, and I want all enemies to be gibbable.

What's the problem that people have with Brutal DOOM? Am I one of the small minority here that actually enjoys the mod, and thinks the gameplay is good and combined with a few other mods like FKER, and other mods etc.etc.etc would actually fit well in DOOM 4?

Seriously people, nothing wrong with Brutal DOOM.... I rather enjoy it. I want realistic gore, meaning if I shoot a dude point blank in the face with my boomstick it better fly off. Also gibabble corpses like in real-life. Also add in some alternative fire modes and make the Chainsaw double as an awesome sword that you can use.

Doomguy777 said:

What's the problem that people have with Brutal DOOM? Am I one of the small minority here that actually enjoys the mod, and thinks the gameplay is good and combined with a few other mods like FKER, and other mods etc.etc.etc would actually fit well in DOOM 4?

Seriously people, nothing wrong with Brutal DOOM.... I rather enjoy it. I want realistic gore, meaning if I shoot a dude point blank in the face with my boomstick it better fly off. Also gibabble corpses like in real-life. Also add in some alternative fire modes and make the Chainsaw double as an awesome sword that you can use.

I honestly don't have a problem with Brutal Doom. In fact, I really enjoy the mod. I was just being sarcastic and taking a pot shot at the Doom purists who have an irrational hatred of Brutal Doom for whatever reason. IMO, the push back against Brutal Doom is as equally retarded as the incessant worshiping of it. The truth is that Brutal Doom has some really awesome features that would be awesome if incorporated into the new Doom. Yeah, the new Doom shouldn't be a carbon copy of Brutal Doom, however, Brutal Doom features such as having all enemies being capable of being gibbed, dismemberment, corpse gibbing, monster on monster fatalities, etc. all would be awesome in the new Doom. Don't tell me that you wouldn't be wowed by watching a Hell Knight rip a zombie in half. That's a lot more exciting than watching a Hell Knight scratch a zombie and then have the zombie simply fall over and die.

doom_is_great said:

I honestly don't have a problem with Brutal Doom. In fact, I really enjoy the mod. I was just being sarcastic and taking a pot shot at the Doom purists who have an irrational hatred of Brutal Doom for whatever reason. IMO, the push back against Brutal Doom is as equally retarded as the incessant worshiping of it. The truth is that Brutal Doom has some really awesome features that would be awesome if incorporated into the new Doom. Yeah, the new Doom shouldn't be a carbon copy of Brutal Doom, however, Brutal Doom features such as having all enemies being capable of being gibbed, dismemberment, corpse gibbing, monster on monster fatalities, etc. all would be awesome in the new Doom. Don't tell me that you wouldn't be wowed by watching a Hell Knight rip a zombie in half. That's a lot more exciting than watching a Hell Knight scratch a zombie and then have the zombie simply fall over and die.

Man, you are so spot on! I agree.

GoatLord said:

Do bodies still de-materialize in modern games? How is this usually handled?

In some games bodies may disappear when you're simply not looking. While not modern, Dark Forces II for example: Kill a room full of enemies, and stare the camera on one or two. Come back two minutes too four hours later, the enemies on camera will still be visible, but when turn around, the rest have vacated. Turn back around, and the corpses you were looking at may or may not still be present. (Actually, DF2 might not be the best example again, but I know this happens in Jedi Outcast).

This is also very common in Call of Duty games. Bodies will simply disappear when you're not looking. Interestingly, however, in World at War, where you could dismember enemies with ease, body parts like legs and hands will never disappear, although the bodies they belonged too will. In some other games, like Elite Forces, if you watch a body long enough, it'll vaporize with an animation, and bodies will sink into the ground when playing Jedi Outcast multiplayer.

My comment is that the new DOOM game should be controversial due to the high level of violence. I'm saying make the game over-the-top extreme. Put the M in Mature damn it. I want to see tons of blood and gore, no disappearing bodies (gives the evil stare to DOOM 3), I want to literally be knee-deep in the dead.

Doomguy777 said:

My comment is that the new DOOM game should be controversial due to the high level of violence. I'm saying make the game over-the-top extreme. Put the M in Mature damn it. I want to see tons of blood and gore, no disappearing bodies (gives the evil stare to DOOM 3), I want to literally be knee-deep in the dead.

Doubt it would be controversial though, it's not like in the early 90's where video games where seen as kids toys and then came out 2 of the most violent games of their time, then in 1999 when the WAD UAC labs was thought to be a replica of Colombine.

To go for intentional shock value with the violence in Doom would be akin to doing the same thing in Hollywood. Both mediums have tolerated so much violence, the only way to truly disturb general audiences at this point would be to go for the lowest common denominator. Teenage me would find this approach appealing, but not contemporary me. I don't think Doom would benefit from looking like a Cannibal Corpse album cover, awesome as their art is.

I think this DOOM does need a gore upgrade. Not anywhere near Brutal DOOM (although it's fun), but definitely an upgrade from what the original DOOMS were and what DOOM 3 was. Should be some nice fluid death animations too. It's called DOOM for a reason. I would expect this game to be borderline adults only. Although it will most likely just get a mature rating.

I agree with your ideas there, and would love enemies to react differently when shot in different places. There hasn't been much innovation there lately. I remember the first Solider of Fortune game had some of that, though with canned animations, and it was fun then.

The only tidmit I disagree on is worrying about going too far with the blood. Maybe demons just bleed more than regular people ha, personally I'm fine with it looking like that elevator in The Shining.

Doomguy777 said:

What's the problem that people have with Brutal DOOM? Am I one of the small minority here that actually enjoys the mod, and thinks the gameplay is good and combined with a few other mods like FKER, and other mods etc.etc.etc would actually fit well in DOOM 4?

Seriously people, nothing wrong with Brutal DOOM.... I rather enjoy it. I want realistic gore, meaning if I shoot a dude point blank in the face with my boomstick it better fly off. Also gibabble corpses like in real-life. Also add in some alternative fire modes and make the Chainsaw double as an awesome sword that you can use.

I think, from an effects standpoint, Brutal Doom does some awesome things. Especially dismemberment and the gore aspect of it. On the other hand, shit like iron-sight and dependency on headshots is what is wrong with it. Hitscan enemies (like former-human, former sarge, and chaingunner) do way too much damage, and turns the game into a cover-based shooter.

It's super fun and I agree that it's a great mod, but IMO it kind of changes Doom's flow... it is it's own thing, separate from Doom games.

What's wrong with iron sights and head shots?

GoatLord said:

What's wrong with iron sights and head shots?

Nothing. A modern game without the option of iron sights and head shots would be stupid. However, I wouldn't want shooting down the sights to be the only way to shoot accurately in the new Doom. Shooting from the hip should definitely be an option. In fact, it should be rare to have to use iron sights to take down an enemy. Perhaps if an enemy is over 50 or 100 yards away, then you should have to use iron sights. Anything less than that, shooting from the hip should allow you to kill your enemies just fine.

I would imagine that weapons in the future would have assisted aiming (something that is being worked on now), or the marine would magnify his target with a HUD contact lens or visor (also being worked on now).

Yeah, DOOM is set in the 22nd century right? By then they probably have that sort of thing. Also, the new DOOM should have extreme blood and gore. That's what made DOOM so memorable back in the day was it's gore. Maybe they should do what Killing Floor 2 is doing but better.

Nothing is "wrong" with ADS... But it kind of goes against the design philosophy of Doom. Doom is about movement as defense, circle strafing, fast paced gameplay. Almost like a first-person bullet-hell game. ADS came from "realistic" military shooters like Battlefield 2, Black Hawk Down, and the original CoD. It ended up working pretty well on console because it gave the player a little more precision with a gamepad. None of those games were really twitch shooters like Doom or Quake, though. It also isn't the only way to have accurate controls with a gamepad (Doom 3, Team Fortress 2 and Halo for example)

All I'm saying is that ADS works great for a lot of FPS games, but wouldn't be right for a Doom game. Especially if by having it means you lose hip-fire accuracy like in most games that have ADS.

The Doom - Quake 1 gameplay pace is atrocious in controllers, classic Doom still works on consoles due to the lack of the need to aim up - down unlike a 3D shooter. For Doom to succeed on consoles it needs to have a slower pace and focus on a more precise aim like Halo did to succeed influencing the upcoming shooters on consoles. That's why bet on a faster pace than Doom 3 - slower pace than Quake 4. Something between those 2 games. Off course, holding the run - sprint button you can get faster, but it makes you unable to aim-shoot.

Kaskaum said:

The Doom - Quake 1 gameplay pace is atrocious in controllers, classic Doom still works on consoles due to the lack of the need to aim up - down unlike a 3D shooter. For Doom to succeed on consoles it needs to have a slower pace and focus on a more precise aim like Halo did to succeed influencing the upcoming shooters on consoles. That's why bet on a faster pace than Doom 3 - slower pace than Quake 4. Something between those 2 games. Off course, holding the run - sprint button you can get faster, but it makes you unable to aim-shoot.

Quake 1 and Quake 3 worked fine for me on Dreamcast, and that only had one analog stick. Quake 4 is fine with a 360 pad, and so is Quake III for that matter.