Doom 4 should have...

DooM_RO said:

I loved the game because of the fantastic weapons, the enemy reactions, dismemberments and sparks flying everywhere where you shoot, it all feels very slick. The atmosphere of the game is very good as well

Having satisfying shooting should be a given though. It's more so the overall structure of combat and navigation that I'm concerned about. So I disagree when...

DooM_RO said:

this is the best formula for a AAA shooter with some old school sensibilities

...you say this. Because the TNO experience is about pushing you through a scripted story, with maybe two or three more open areas sprinkled in the game. And you have to approach combat with caution and take cover often. Yes, there are health packs and duel-wielding, but those sensibilities are rather minor.

It's a polished, well-executed game for what it is, but I don't think it felt fresh (or old-school) beyond a few minor aspects.

The only thing I didn't really like about TNO is that it tried too hard to be dramatic. In a game where your character is pretty much a muscled up 80s action hero who can effortlessly slaughter hundreds of nazis without even blinking an eye and be shot, stabbed, punched in the face by a super soldat, blown up by a grenade and still somehow survive it all, the dramatic tone sometimes felt out of place. And BJ's whispers got kind of annoying after a while. It makes me chuckle when BJ is like "I have seen so many horrible things" while he maniacally stabs a space nazi to death. It just doesn't feel right. I would much rather have preferred to have BJ shouting curse words and taunts at the nazis during combat. That would have fit the overall campiness of the game and also would fit BJ's character better.

Anyway, back on topic. Doom should have a serious story, just not a dramatic one that clashes with the actions of our hero and with the tone of the game.

ChickenOrBeef said:

So I bought TNO last week, and I've beaten both timelines.

I really hope Doom 4 isn't a similar experience. Don't get me wrong. TNO is a solid, well-made, enjoyable game (with good writing). But it was still a rather linear, heavily scripted, cover shooter. It was nothing special, and I don't think it's very replayable.

As I've discussed before, I hope Doom 4 does at least these two things:


1) Provide the player with faster-than-normal strafing speed, and have most of the enemies unarmed. This will eliminate the need for using cover, and instead emphasize combat that's more about agility. Why is this good? The player can then dodge and shoot at the same time. He's not constantly taken out of the fight, like with cover-based gameplay.

2) Provide an overall experience that's less about moving the player through scripted sequences and cut-scenes, and more about having the player explore a larger environment without interruption and restraint.


Beyond that, you can modernize the experience in any way that doesn't infringe upon those two core tenets. Having satisfying weapons and gore will be important as well, but that's a given.

I agree, as good as TNO is, it wouldn't be a very good Doom game. I find it a little disheartening that people look at game mechanics in a vacuum, as if there is only one way to make a first person action game.

A lot of modern shooters have a very rocky pacing, it creates a lot of suspense because you can't be outside of cover for very long else you die, and it can be fun, but is very different from Doom. You walk into a room, there are enemies, you shoot at eachother for a while until your screen turns red, then you go hide for a while until you recover. There isn't much you can do as a player to subvert this since all the enemies in most modern shooters are instant-hit enemies with guns. TNO for the most part, does the same thing. The only difference is that when you are "hiding" in a room, instead of just waiting to heal, you pick up random junk in the room to heal.

Someone once described Doom to me as a First-Person Geometry Wars in a maze. I think that description works very well for this comparison. Doom only has like 3 instant-hit (hitscan) enemies, and they all are very low life and have very specific uses in map design. Besides that, you are out in the open, and are able to dodge the horde of melee and projectile enemies with your movement. The pacing of the game is way different.

Wolfenstein: The New Order is a good Wolfenstein game.

But it's not DOOM.

That's the thing that people here really don't realize.

While the new DOOM should have a serious story, I don't want a repeat of DOOM 3 with a laughable story.

I'd rather have a really serious story with tons of dark humor. In otherwords, think Evil Dead or Aliens kind of humor. Really dark stuff.

That guy might be THE reason video games got ratings. Holy fuck his parents should have supervised his Doom playing a little more.

Obzen said:

I agree, as good as TNO is, it wouldn't be a very good Doom game. I find it a little disheartening that people look at game mechanics in a vacuum, as if there is only one way to make a first person action game.

A lot of modern shooters have a very rocky pacing, it creates a lot of suspense because you can't be outside of cover for very long else you die, and it can be fun, but is very different from Doom. You walk into a room, there are enemies, you shoot at eachother for a while until your screen turns red, then you go hide for a while until you recover. There isn't much you can do as a player to subvert this since all the enemies in most modern shooters are instant-hit enemies with guns. TNO for the most part, does the same thing. The only difference is that when you are "hiding" in a room, instead of just waiting to heal, you pick up random junk in the room to heal.

Someone once described Doom to me as a First-Person Geometry Wars in a maze. I think that description works very well for this comparison. Doom only has like 3 instant-hit (hitscan) enemies, and they all are very low life and have very specific uses in map design. Besides that, you are out in the open, and are able to dodge the horde of melee and projectile enemies with your movement. The pacing of the game is way different.

Again, it really isn't perfect but at the moment an IMPROVED Wolfenstein formula is the best I am hoping for a AAA Doom game. More secrets, better enemy encounters and variety, even more alternative paths. People are saying Painkiller and Serious Sam should be the inspiration for Doom 4 but among other reasons, they are not AAA games. We have to keep in mind that Doom will certainly be a AAA game.

At the very least it should be FUN to shoot stuff in Doom and I am confident Id is able to deliver at least on that front.

DooM_RO said:

Again, it really isn't perfect but at the moment an IMPROVED Wolfenstein formula is the best I am hoping for a AAA Doom game. More secrets, better enemy encounters and variety, even more alternative paths. People are saying Painkiller and Serious Sam should be the inspiration for Doom 4 but among other reasons, they are not AAA games. We have to keep in mind that Doom will certainly be a AAA game.

At the very least it should be FUN to shoot stuff in Doom and I am confident Id is able to deliver at least on that front.

An improved Wolfen formula:

- Only use cutscenes when it is important for the plot development, don't waste time with useless cuts as we can see in Wolfen;
- Don't use any kind of hellish item, which includes mystic weapons and consumables(like immortality-invisibility globes) these 2 temporary buffs can be obtained through a high tech suit that can provides both temporary abilities plus extra strength;
- Focus more on action than stealth, give a faster pace, as I said before, a reasonable amount of pace for the game to be playable on consoles, something between D3 BFG - Quake 4;
- Use a horror, macabre atmosphere from Doom 3 along with a more intense action;
- Sounds must be used to increase the feeling of the horror of the situation of earth - mars;
- Use top macabre art design for both monsters and scenarios filled with dead corpses of both civilians and marines, etc;
- Use an improved system of upgrades for character and weapons taking Wolfen as inspiration;
- Add coop and a good multiplayer, a powerful multiplayer is essential for Doom to compete with other AAA shooters, because most players don't even complete 50% of the campaign but get stuck in multiplayer. So it needs to be well made in order to keep players busy introducing a lot of different kind of matches and character customization - progression system inspired in RPG as we can see in modern shooters.

Yes, something like that, although I would use a different weapon system. Each episode after E1 has a different spin on each weapon.

E1 is on Phobos and has only the five E1 weapons of the original Doom with no alternative fire or upgrades.

E2 is on Earth and has more futuristic weapons that have alternative fire much like TNO but changes the appearance of the weapons...maybe like the Nailgun in RAGE DLC.

E3 is in medieval hell and later levels are patchwork Hell Factories made from stolen UAC technology and has a combination of seven weapons: Magical, organic and Hell Tech.

Magical weapons could be 1-4, the organic weapon is 5 and Hell Tech are 6 and 7. Instead of an alternative fire mode you get an Upgrade system that uses Souls that you pick off from the ground and fallen enemies to permanently upgrade your weapon. Have you ever played Demon Eclipse? It should be a bit like that and a bit like Heretic too.

Even without upgrades the weapons should a a twist on the originals.

1. is the melee weapon which is a Scythe

2. Is a sceptre that spews a homing projectile. The upgrade trades the homing for a charged projectile or three projectiles that home in different directions.

3. Is a kind of shotgun that very slowly can replenish up to 10 ammo if empty. Can be upgraded to set enemies of fire or faster rate of fire.

4. Is a weapon made of bones that fires bone fragments at higher speed than a chaingun but slightly weaker as well. Can be upgraded into a lifestealing weapon. A full magazine gives 25%

5. Is an organic launcher that gobbles up enemies and regurgitates them as projectiles. Can be upgraded into a Berzerker, a weapon that spews a projectile that randomly changes the target of an enemy (can be used against you) and gives them +50% damage.

6. Is the Immolatron, a demonic assault rifle that burns enemies alive.

7. Is the BFG 9000. Why in Hell? Because in the original you only find it in a secret area in E3M3 so it would be interesting if it were a weapon made by demons.

I haven't really completed my hell weapons and haven't really thought out all their functions and upgrades (most still have only one) but essentially my dream Doom 4 would have something like this.

I'm wondering if they're taking the concept of the teaser far to the point where all monsters will have some mechanical part in their bodies, including imps, barons, hell knights, for example.

I really hope not. What made Quake 2's enemies so boring was that they were all cybernetic; aesthetically, there was too much consistency. There's something novel about the fact that Doom's roster ranges from vaguely human (zombiemen, shotgunners) to fleshy (pinky, barons/hell knights) to cybernetic (cyberdemon, revs) to physical extremes (archvile, manc) to otherworldly (cacodemons, pain elementals) to arachnid (arachnotrons, spider masterminds) to spiritual (lost souls). And yet it all somehow works in the context of the game. Making everyone cybernetic would be in poor taste.

I think cybernetics could work if it's in the H.R Giger-ish biomech sense and not just robotic elements.

Plus the cyberdemon being cybernetic is kind of a given.

GoatLord said:

I really hope not. What made Quake 2's enemies so boring was that they were all cybernetic; aesthetically, there was too much consistency. There's something novel about the fact that Doom's roster ranges from vaguely human (zombiemen, shotgunners) to fleshy (pinky, barons/hell knights) to cybernetic (cyberdemon, revs) to physical extremes (archvile, manc) to otherworldly (cacodemons, pain elementals) to arachnid (arachnotrons, spider masterminds) to spiritual (lost souls). And yet it all somehow works in the context of the game. Making everyone cybernetic would be in poor taste.

This man speaks wisdom.

doom_is_great said:

This man speaks wisdom.

Seconded.

I read through a lot of the posts, but there's too many to read all of so I hope I'm not repeating too much. I'm just gonna plop a butt-ton of my opinions of what I think the game should be like...


-If the game decides to focus on quick, fluid movement and projectile fire:

Wall jumping; being able to leap a greater distance when near a wall. Make dodging certain projectiles involve a little jumping every now and then. Maybe some ground sliding/tumbling. Some fireballs can aim for the feet while others aim for the head. Don't rigidly force players to have to do this to succeed at the game though; having the option is nice.

Maybe throw some platforming in there.

Letting players still have the option, sometimes, of sneaking behind/around and assassinating enemies (at least the first kill in a multi-enemy encounter) versus strictly playing dodge-ball with rockets in open rooms. Different encounters could mildly favor one style over the other, but both styles should be doable in each.

The game doesn't need a light-speed character, but players should have just enough speed necessary to dodge in the way you most want to at most situations.

Monsters that fill a lot of different roles. Take a bestiary in the style of Doom 2 and add some more monsters here and there with unique features. For example, I heard that you regenerate health by killing stuff; having flesh bubbles on walls or vermin scurry around on the ground with the soul purpose of dropping or regenerating health when you squish them scattered around, in quiet areas and even in active battles, is a more engaging way to heal yourself compared to auto-regen health-bars or med-kits. It also keeps you from repeating the same muscle-memory movements against the same types of encounters because you have to subtly change your battle maneuvers to pick up health. I hope they execute this well.


-If there is any character dialog:

I find it cool when the character is silent and you don't usually see your character.

Ability to change your FPS arms and hands (make arms/hands with different look/shape and tattoos and stuff, gender, etc); Character wears a helmet and is a vague speechless avatar for you to play with. Others probably disagree but oh well.


-Visuals:

I always liked bright colorful saturated colors like you see in games like Mario. It would be cool to have the player enter, on occasion, rooms with bright colorful features like lava or ooze or even openings to abstract extraterrestrial sunsets. Contrast between the dark-dull and bright-colorful is something I appreciate.

...an editor. Any mention whether doom will have any kind of editor? Like radiant or like idStudio?

Nobody ever made anything useful with the RAGE editor...and Phobos and The Dark Mod are the only worthwhile Doom 3 mods. I totally understand Id to be honest.

Youre forgetting that Hexen mod for doom3. :)

No story, no cutscenes, no humor, and be an unending atmospheric fast-paced hell-infested deathride from start to finish. Then they release a super awesome expansion or shutup and take my money DLC that has as many levels as doom2 only they have good level design.

SYS said:

as many levels as doom2 only they have good level design.

So, just like Doom 2?

SYS said:

No story, no cutscenes, no humor, and be an unending atmospheric fast-paced hell-infested deathride from start to finish. Then they release a super awesome expansion or shutup and take my money DLC that has as many levels as doom2 only they have good level design.

Content that has 32 levels is not DLC, most expansions don't have as many anymore. Not surprising, making a level for a AAA game is far more complicated than making a level for Doom 2, often involving multiple people with different skillsets for just one level.

You are deluding yourself if you think it will have no story. From what the attendees tell us it will be more understated than in say TNO but expecting this to be just Doom 2 with better graphics is a sure ride to disappointment.

If you are to enjoy this game you will probably have to make some compromises, no matter how old school it sounds.

Blood on the Walls (the Manny Charlston song).

It's sort of the unofficial PC Doom theme for me.

esselfortium said:

So, just like Doom 2?

Sure.

DooM_RO said:

Content that has 32 levels is not DLC, most expansions don't have as many anymore. Not surprising, making a level for a AAA game is far more complicated than making a level for Doom 2, often involving multiple people with different skillsets for just one level.

You are deluding yourself if you think it will have no story. From what the attendees tell us it will be more understated than in say TNO but expecting this to be just Doom 2 with better graphics is a sure ride to disappointment.

If you are to enjoy this game you will probably have to make some compromises, no matter how old school it sounds.

It's all environmental artists rendering some fancy set piece they can import into the linear shooting gallery. Which leads to the next fancy pre-rendered thing the concept artist spunked onto paper. I don't have ridiculous expectations, thread topic is still about what it SHOULD have, not what it's going to be.

An OFF post, first footage of the new CoD multiplayer, following the trend of the futuristic FPS nowadays: exoskeletons, meta materials, invisibility ability suits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGUaUV1-9us

Kaskaum said:

An OFF post, first footage of the new CoD multiplayer, following the trend of the futuristic FPS nowadays: exoskeletons, meta materials, invisibility ability suits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGUaUV1-9us

That actually looks...





...fun.

The map design seems kind of questionable, though.

The part where he used the jetpack to get behind the person chasing him looks sweet.

So we all love the classic doom monsters but is there anything completely new you would like to see?

In hell I would like to see a bloated damned person vomiting boiling excrement on you or an enemy that gorges up fallen allies and spits them back.

STARTAN

I just want to see components of original Doom more fleshed out and added upon really. Nothing too radically new.

However, I hope they can come up with some creative new monsters that aren't just derivations of monsters that we already have. I mean, do we really need another imp like create that just throws fireballs and what not?

I think the wraith from Doom 3 was a pretty interesting creature, however, he wasn't executed well enough. His teleportation abilities did nothing but simply delay the inevitable shotgun blast to the face. If they could reintroduce the wraith and flesh him out and make more interesting to fight, that would be a welcome addition to the new Doom.

And also some cool new weapons would be sweet too like remote mines of proximity mines that you can set up booby traps with. Maybe a plasma bomb type of device that emits a BFG like explosion would be a cool weapon too.

I'd like Doom 4 to have actual liquid blood, like Borderlands 2 (or the Portal 2 paint, at least). As shitty as Borderlands 2 is, I never get tired of fooling around with liquids.

doom_is_great said:

I think the wraith from Doom 3 was a pretty interesting creature, however, he wasn't executed well enough. His teleportation abilities did nothing but simply delay the inevitable shotgun blast to the face. If they could reintroduce the wraith and flesh him out and make more interesting to fight, that would be a welcome addition to the new Doom.

I'm reading the Making of Doom 3 book right now. The Wraith is based on an older Archvile model. He was supposed to turn into a swarm of insects which could hide in corpses and infiltrate under doors. This was scrapped because the game was too dark for the swarm to be fun.

The book is great btw, I bought a used copy in very good condition from AbeBooks for only 5 dollars and got it shipped to Eastern Europe... for 8. It gives a glimpse into what was cut and modified for the game (including stuff that ended up in The Lost Mission) and the overall id design philosophy.

Doom 4 should be like Shovel Knight but in First Person, big guns and horrible monsters from hell.