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Patrol1985

So who here can beat Romero at Wolfenstein 3D?

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Yesterday I was browsing through "Masters of Doom" and I found this fragment saying John Romero could beat the first episode of Wolfenstein 3D in 5 minutes and 20 seconds ("bring 'em on" difficulty)*.

I figured "this sounds fun" and decided to take this challenge. I did a quick reminder of level layout, ran my copy of the game and tried to finish the first episode as fast as possible.

My result: 6 minutes 12 seconds. (original .exe via dosbox)

I think that 5:20 was a truly nice time (especially by the past's standards). Has anyone else tried to / succeeded in besting Romero?

*page 118 of the book, if you're curious ;)

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The Automatic Wolfenstein Bot v1.0 can beat him.

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Maes said:

The Automatic Wolfenstein Bot v1.0 can beat him.


Can it? I thought it was always going for 100% on each level, not for the shortest time :P

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It probably can be programmed to find the shortest path to the exit with the shortest amount of movement possible just as easily, if set to ignore damage and enemies. It's like discussing speed run vs an uv-max run in Doom, really, only with simplified mechanics.

But the last word on that lies with printz, ofc.

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Maes said:

It probably can be programmed to find the shortest path to the exit with the shortest amount of movement possible just as easily, if set to ignore damage and enemies. It's like discussing speed run vs an uv-max run in Doom, really, only with simplified mechanics.

But the last word on that lies with printz, ofc.


I dare it to. I'm interested in the Wolfbot. I've never seen it, but it sounds awesome. I wonder if to get the shortest time it would kill lesser enemies in its way or just strafe avoid them.

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geo said:

I wonder if to get the shortest time it would kill lesser enemies in its way or just strafe avoid them.


It can probably do both: keep moving towards its goal AND face & shoot any enemies. After all, it doesn't have to actually look where it's going ;-)

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Speedrunning is probably easier to bot in Doom than in Wolf3D. Reasons:

- much worse maneuverability. Both strafe and turning not allowed: pick one. So I can't run safely away from enemies while shooting them merrily. I guess one can cheat by alternating between instant turns and strafes, but why would I want to see that? Also, no wallrunning either.
- much wider player and enemies. The enemies are even bigger than tiles, and the player nearly as big as one. Contrast with Doom where nearly (in theory) four players fit a 64-wide corridor and the passages are normally even bigger. Lots of room.
- much less forgiving enemies. Ignore them too long and you're shredded. Ignore Doom monsters too long and they may solve the problem for you.

First episode of Wolfenstein is painfully big. Episodes 3 and 5 (both by Romero) are shorter and sweeter.

I guess I can try, but currently I'm busy with Doom, and I've spent far too much time with Wolfenstein anyway.

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Heh, I had no idea about the enemy/tile size in Wolf3D. Does that mean that multiple packed enemies are actually overlapping?

As for controls with alternating turning/strafing, I wouldn't consider that cheating, as it was a technique I used in Wolf3D. I played it after I played Doom, and I used a "turn, then strafe, repeat" technique with the Doom keyboard controls anyway. A bot would execute that so smoothly that it would look like one motion. Besides, you are allowed to turn instantly as fast as you like and in any orientation in Wolf3D, right? Depending on joy/mouse sensitivity, ofc. So practically, Wolf3Dbot can turn instantly and strafe as much as it wants ;-)

It wouldn't be cheating though, it would just be "darn good playing".

Maybe a strategy of killing all enemies while also trying to run to away from them?

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Maes said:

Heh, I had no idea about the enemy/tile size in Wolf3D. Does that mean that multiple packed enemies are actually overlapping?

Yes, in fact, multiple enemies can occupy the same physical space as long as their target tile is different (monsters in Wolf3D always move from the center of one tile to the next, stopping only to shoot).

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Nothing will ever top this Doom 2 speedrun. Unrelated to Wolf 3D but amazing regardless:

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Well, apparently Kimo Xvirus has done it in 3 minutes and 38 seconds:



As for me, I can barely stand 9 orthogonal mazes one after another, let alone speedrun them. Besides, my time will almost certainly be closer to 30 minutes or more, so no, I can't.

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Blzut3 said:

Yes, in fact, multiple enemies can occupy the same physical space as long as their target tile is different (monsters in Wolf3D always move from the center of one tile to the next, stopping only to shoot).

I wonder what Doom would feel like with that kind of AI (perhaps with tile sized blockmaps instead of 8 unit ones). Perhaps change the hitscan damage calculations to that of Wolf's bullet damage. Random thought, I know, but it's interesting how every little difference in gameplay mechanics can make a game feel very different.

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RUSH said:

Nothing will ever top this Doom 2 speedrun. Unrelated to Wolf 3D but amazing regardless:

It was done with save\load and changing game speed though.

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Memfis said:

It was done with save\load and changing game speed though.


Which is not unlike the "powers" a bot has over a human, like tic-accurate reflexes, instant turning, total situational awareness, optimal per-tic decisions etc.

A human player can sometimes achieve real-time bot-like or TAS-like performance ( just watch some ToD demos....) but that's the result of heavy conditioning, training and countless retries, and also a certain degree of luck, previous knowledge of a map, and the map's layout itself.

To an average player, a typical ToD speedrun certainly does look as if it was done with TAS/cheating, just like a mediocre PvP player will consider all better players than himself to be cheating/using aimbots. And sometimes it can be really hard to discern between the two ;-)

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