Your opinion on Doom 64?

I get mixed impressions from Doom 64. At its core, it's very much Doom and very much enjoyable, especially when played via Doom 64 EX. As for the original cartridge release and playing it with that fucking horrible N64 controller, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

While the gameplay is undeniably fun with an atmosphere akin to PSX Doom (which is certainly no bad thing), the one aspect that always, always turns me off after a while is the new art direction. I don't mean the textures, some of those could fit right in alongside the classic graphics, but the enemy appearances are just 'eh' in so many ways. Some monsters just look plain drunk/clumsy during animation (Barons/Knights, Mancubus) while others have a 'trying too hard to look scary' appearance (Cacodemon, Cyberdemon). They also look like they're made of cheap n' shiny plasticine, which is somewhat humorous considering that the original enemy designs actually are digitised clay models but don't look even half as much like it.

tl;dr -- I really like it as an arcadey FPS game, but there's something empty/amateur about it as a Doom game. Sometimes it just feels/looks like a bad fan-made extra.

Awesome sequel.

After playing the game for the first time via Doom 64 EX, I will say I consider it to be the true sequel to Doom II. It's got a lot of great atmosphere, a lot of the levels are great and it can even be quite creepy at times. Still, it's nowhere near as memorable or as replayable as Doom 1 and 2. Some of the levels really aren't that fun and a lot of the puzzles are so cryptic. The overall experience though, is one I'm glad I put the time into.

I couldn't imagine playing the game with a N64 controller though. The final level especially, seems to be made for a keyboard and mouse setup.

I enjoyed playing through it. I used a good condition N64 controller, a nice Sony Trinitron CRT, and was streaming it live on Twitch with Quasar and Kaiser providing some fun commentary.

Mike.Reiner said:

I enjoyed playing through it. I used a good condition N64 controller, a nice Sony Trinitron CRT, and was streaming it live on Twitch with Quasar and Kaiser providing some fun commentary.

Is that still up on Twitch? I'd love a link if you have one. :)

I don't think it's bad (only got to level 15-16 and lost my save). I like the PSX Doom because it's scarier, but this one is probably better. It's exclusive to the N64 and everything about it is unique, and it has Aubrey Hodges work that wasn't in the PSX. I can't help but notice a bunch of similarities to Doom 3 as well (like the dark room when you find Plasma rifle there's an imp on other side of window in Doom3. There's a strikingly similar place in Doom64 (and so many others it's not even funny...)).

IMO Doom64 Absolution for PC is a wonderful port. It's a native PC port and doesn't emulate anything. I've never really tried Doom64 EX but I think it involves emulation and stuff like that so I don't think it's as much of a port. The music in in absolution is low quality. I'm not sure which would be the best version... I used to own the Doom 64 cartridge until I sold it.

It's a port.

Well, technically, it's not a port, because the original source code was never released to the public. It's a recreation. Still far from being an emulator.

Holering said:

IMO Doom64 Absolution for PC is a wonderful port...I've never really tried Doom64 EX but I think it involves emulation and stuff like that so I don't think it's as much of a port.

Absolution isn't a port of Doom 64 in the slightest, it's a TC. Doom 64 EX isn't really 'emulated' either, it's a work of reverse-engineering and far closer to being a 100% accurate engine port than Absolution could have ever been.

Doom 64 EX is not doing any emulation. It is based on the reverse engineered MIPS R4300 assembly code.

It is 500x more accurate than the TC in every single regard.

I can see why Kaiser was well worn out on hearing this repeated like a parrot mantra 5 years ago, and here people are still repeating it. It's starting to annoy me too, as a fellow source port author.

there's absolutely no reason to play Absolution over EX these days. IIRC both needs ROMs to function (i think? i might be wrong, but i'm sure Absolution needed the level data of the original game too), so it's not like you can excuse it and say that there's any less legal involvement in getting a ROM of the game. is Doomsday Engine really that popular that people turn a blind eye against the EX version because it's different from what they're used to?

I personally don't like doomsday engine (except for the wads that only support doomsday). Doom64 EX sounds like a really good port since it is based on actual source code of the original Doom 64. But how does it render the music?

EDIT:
Nevermind. Saw the FAQ that it makes a soundfont from the game data. This is probably the best port I've heard about. Sorry if my misunderstanding upset anyone.

Holering said:

Doom64 EX sounds like a really good port since it is based on actual source code of the original Doom 64.

No. It's based on reverse engineered code from the game itself, likely via disassembly (I doubt Kaiser would've wanted to work directly from bytecode). The D64 and PSX source codes were never released to the public, though it helps that the Jaguar source they were derived from is publicly available.

EDIT: oops, wrong name

Average said:

Is that still up on Twitch? I'd love a link if you have one. :)

Unfortunately I did not have them on Skype or anything, just text which was not captured.

I did it in two sittings in one night. The first part has been lost to the void of twitch's auto deletion. Here's the second part if you really want to see it, but it just has occasional comments from me on what is happening (Which are difficult to hear at times as I have a shitty mic and the game audio was a bit high) and responses or questions to Quasar and Kaiser.

http://www.twitch.tv/refracture/c/5012908

Sodaholic said:

No. It's based on reverse engineered code from the game itself, likely via disassembly (I doubt Kinsie would've wanted to work directly from bytecode). The D64 and PSX source codes were never released to the public, though it helps that the Jaguar source they were derived from is publicly available.

First, who's "Kinsie"? But aside from that, I'd like to say the distinction you're making here is relatively minimal. Tools for reverse engineering have gotten very sophisticated and make understanding assembly code easier. Also, assembly often isn't that far from the C that it was generated from in the first place, seeing how C barely qualifies as a high level language in many regards. You quickly develop a knack for seeing the logical structures that given instruction sequences originated from.

It's unfortunate that there's not a good decompiler for MIPS architecture, however. Choco Strife was a much easier project than Doom64 EX because of the powerful Hex Rays decompiler, and for whatever reason, it's only implemented for x86, even though it seems like something that should be able to be abstracted beyond a single instruction set.

Quasar said:

First, who's "Kinsie"?

I meant to say Kaiser, I mixed the names up because they both start with K and are two syllables (I'm very, very sleep deprived as of late). Kinsie is a regular on the ZDoom forums who makes some decent mods, but has an apparently irrational hatred of me. I cannot understand this, I've done nothing to personally harm or insult him to justify it, but it's not important or worth worrying about.

Quasar said:

Tools for reverse engineering have gotten very sophisticated and make understanding assembly code easier.

I'm certainly aware of this. It's pretty awesome how much easier things have gotten as it enables this kind of work to restore old games that don't have their source available to the public.

Holering said:

I personally don't like doomsday engine (except for the wads that only support doomsday).

i kind of like Doomsday, actually. as far as focusing on graphical-enhancements and such goes, i felt it dealt with that in the best way and have some fond memories of it. however, a lack of Boom support kind of kills it for me, as then all it really is is just a limit-removing source-port looking pretty.

Sodaholic said:

It's pretty awesome how much easier things have gotten as it enables this kind of work to restore old games that don't have their source available to the public.

On this subject, some of the recent work done to RA95 (over the last year or so in particular) is exceptional. Various things which were previously hardcoded have been 'unlocked' and starting up multiplayer games via CnCNet allows teams and start positions to be set from the lobby (as opposed to just dumb-lucking your way through everything every single time).

Quasar said:

Doom 64 EX is not doing any emulation. It is based on the reverse engineered MIPS R4300 assembly code.

It is 500x more accurate than the TC in every single regard.

I can see why Kaiser was well worn out on hearing this repeated like a parrot mantra 5 years ago, and here people are still repeating it. It's starting to annoy me too, as a fellow source port author.

HOLY SHIT! You weren't kidding! Screw me in the goat ass and call me billy joe bob! I just checked out git and it's amazing!

The color palette is damn superb. Major props to the authors for the reverse engineering; I'm sure something as dead as the R4300 assembly is like making a edible burger king whopper out of dead crows. Major damn props!

BTW wadgen in git (and back to 2.3) doesn't work in Linux. I get "ERROR: Couldn't read file Content/PALPLAY3.ACT". Compiles fine though. I'm surprised how damn fast doom64-ex builds (must be small); damn nice.

Oh yeah, and I've bought the n64 cartridge.

Don't mean to be off topic. But I'm really eager to play the next version of Doom 64EX 2.6. There's a strange bug whenever I play on higher screen ratios than 4:3 of a horizontal pixel line being drawn across the very end tip of a few weapon sprites close to the center of the screen. (Dunno if it's due to playing at aspects 5:4 and higher.) It's distracting and I've been waiting months for the bug-fix release and refinements that 2.6 offers. I can't seem to fix this visual glitch.

Anyone know what Kaiser is up to? I might resort to sending an email and finding out for myself, but I'd like to see if anyone has any more recent information. D64EX has been an excellent port, but this one shortcoming (Sorry if it sounds extremely trivial and pointless) bugs the hell out of me. :(

For me Doom64 would've been the best game in the entire series if not for a few drawbacks:

-Everything is way too dark.

-N64 controls doesn't suit Doom at all.

-Some monsters weren't included. The nightmare imp is nice but it doesn't make up for it.

What if Doom 64 supported the 4 MB Expansion bay? The thing that adds a total of 8MB to the N64. I think multiplayer would've been possible if it had that.

Anyways Doom 64 is the best Doom on a console ever. Aubrey Hodges and the other Doom 64 crew is are absolute geniuses! I really wished for a Doom 64 part 2. Hell, Let the Midway crew reunite for a kickstarter for a new sprite-based Doom game!

I wonder who made the the squinting medusa-like demon face from the levels: The Bleeding, Altar of Pain, Pitfalls and Into the Void? Not to mention all of the tech and hell architecture w/ the heads impaled on sticks. Dart-shooting demon faces and the Demon face w/ the pulsating glowing red eyes. Kudos to those that made it beautiful.

Doom 64? I love it. It's my second favorite in the series right behind Ultimate Doom. The EX source port is even better.

Loved it. It was one of the first games I played on the N64 shortly after Super Mario 64 and Mario Kart.

The levels got progressively difficult, some downright tough as nails and the whole thing felt more like Doom than Doom II. I was very fond of the graphical changes, but disappointed that so many baddies were missing. Would have loved to see what they could have done with them.

I would love to play the original Doom episodes with the D64 sprites and textures etc. Has that been done? Is it possible with EX?

I really enjoy Doom 64's thematic motifs. The gothic, cavernous, dungeon, temple and arcane environments are very different from previous Dooms, and even the techbase maps are distinctive.

I don't like the way it looks. At all. Always kept me from even trying it.

I think PSX Doom is a little better because it has a lot more maps, but if you've played (or have) the PC version this is better IMHO. I'm not a big fan of butchered up ports either, and I don't think any console on the planet has an accurate port of PC Doom (maybe the Xbox). I agree that this is the best console version of a Doom game because it is completely original-different and doesn't mess around with the original (except for using the name "Doom" lol). Actually, Doom 3 seems to have ripped off Doom 64 in some places.

I wouldn't give Doom 3 so much credit. I strongly doubt id were huge fans or even moderately familiar with the the game other than licensing the franchise out to Midway. I do feel that Doom 3 has some eerie resemblances to Doom 64 however, and I consider than to simply be evidence of how brilliant of a port/total conversion it was.

GoatLord said:

I wouldn't give Doom 3 so much credit. I strongly doubt id were huge fans or even moderately familiar with the the game other than licensing the franchise out to Midway. I do feel that Doom 3 has some eerie resemblances to Doom 64 however, and I consider than to simply be evidence of how brilliant of a port/total conversion it was.

From what Romero has told me, this is not true. They retained a degree of control over the console ports and actively reviewed what was going into them. While I think he left id before Doom 64 came out, he himself did review the PlayStation version and had very positive opinions about it pre-launch. Randy Estrella and Tim Heydelaar also said they needed id's permission to add the new maps to PSX Doom, which they obtained by impressing the id guys with their mapping skills.

Having recently played through the first two levels for the first time in my life I have to say that Doom 64 is one of the best things the collective Doom world has to offer.

I never thought any of "classic" Doom titles would ever offer me so much immersion again. The atmosphere of Doom 64 is second to none in the series. I feel genuinely "uneasy" when going through those corridors and a chill went down my spine a couple of times.

It's all the more impressive that all that could be achieved without cheap jump-scares, so abundant in Doom 3.

I hope the new Doom game follows Doom 64's pattern when it comes to building atmosphere.

Quasar said:

From what Romero has told me, this is not true. They retained a degree of control over the console ports and actively reviewed what was going into them.

This. I remember an old GameFan interview with Tim Heydelaar where he stated that they had to get rid the Aztec/Mayan themed levels because id didn't think they fit Doom's mold.