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Maes

Stupid gamepad vs. keyboard thread

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Akira_98 said:

difficulties in controlling


Good luck getting anyone to admit that YES, PLAYING WITH GAMEPADS IS A HANDICAP, and YES, YOU CAN'T KICK AS MUCH ASS AS WITH MOUSE+WASD OR EVEN PC KEYBOARD, let alone designing maps around that assumption. You'll just get a flood of "it's a matter of getting used to it" and "I play with the gamepad all the time and I have no problems" type of responses, at best.

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Maes said:

YES, YOU CAN'T KICK AS MUCH ASS AS WITH MOUSE+WASD OR EVEN PC KEYBOARD

Keyboard is digital, any adequate gamepad is analogue. This alone makes the latter superior.

But the mouse is more leet, ofc.

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Da Werecat said:

Keyboard is digital, any adequate gamepad is analogue


Then most Doom console source ports had to make do with inadequate controls, including the PC itself ;-)

Even with an analog gamepad, you'd have the problem of cramped controls/reduced ergonomy compared even to standard PC keyboard controls, to the point that potentially greater movement precision can't compensate for the loss in reflexes speed.

Yeah, you may used to it, but in the same way that you get used to an ugly wife and to bad coffee (or bad coffee made by your ugly wife): you can keep telling yourself that it's A-OK, but not-so-deep inside you know it ain't ;-)

But, as I said many times already, let someone record a compet-N style demo playing only with a gamepad of his choice, with any possible advantage afforded by the gamepad alone, and see how he'd fare against not just mouse + WASD demos, but pure keyboarder ones.

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Maes said:

Even with an analog gamepad, you'd have the problem of cramped controls/reduced ergonomy compared even to standard PC keyboard controls, to the point that potentially greater movement precision can't compensate for the loss in reflexes speed.

Keyboard has better ergonomy for playing games? Yeah, keep telling yourself that. ;)

Although with a control scheme as simple as in Doom that may not be a problem. Add freelook though... Maybe, just maybe, you'll get used to playing like that. Eventually.

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Hey now, lets not turn this into an argument over something silly.

Playing over Keyboard & Mouse or Game Pad is all a matter of preference.

I grew up playing all of my DOS games via KB & M, but these days I find myself using a Logitech rip off of the Sony Dual Shock 3 controller, and I rather enjoy it.

One thing that can be said FOR CERTAIN though, there is no way that Sega Genesis controller is good for Doom haha. No shoulder buttons for strafing, and you have to press C + Start to change weapons?

Back on topic, I would love to see the original episodes san PC with the Doom 64 theme. Are I have sprite packs, and the PSX Doom sounds/ music pack.. but are there any good D64 texture packs out there?

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Da Werecat said:

Keyboard has better ergonomy for playing games?


It depends on the game...and on the joystick. I have certainly used my fair share of shitty gamepads/joysticks which actually hurt game performance.

But I concede that most of the time this was due to unhappy pairings e.g. using a large analog wobbler for a platforming game, or a stiff gamepad for a fighting game requiring precise quarter-cycle and half-cycle moves. In those cases, the keyboard was IMMENSELY better. It would probably not be as good for a flight sim or where truly analog, slow, precise control is needed, but Doom is a special case. In Doom you need both clear-cut precision in some aspects (footwork) AND control coupled with speed in others (turning), but not just speed or just precision in both.

Da Werecat said:

Although with a control scheme as simple as in Doom that may not be a problem. Add freelook though...


Talk about moving the goalposts. Freelook was not a consideration in the original Doom, nor in the Compet-N demos.

Though, incidentally, a mouse is pretty much THE ONLY way to have both turning precision/speed AND unintrusive freelook. I can't imagine using a single analog stick for that purpose (looking would disturb turning, and viceversa), or using two sticks at the same time for different purposes.

But, talk is cheap. Record your best UV-MAX or UV-whatever demo of any map you want first with mouse+WASD and then with whatever gamepad arrangement you have, and post it in demos, if you truly believe they are perfectly equivalent methods of control.

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Maes said:

Talk about moving the goalposts. Freelook was not a consideration in the original Doom, nor in the Compet-N demos.

I believe you're the only one who's talking about Compet-N. :) Actually, show me a person who'd defend gamepads for playing classic Doom. I've mostly heard such things in the context of modern shooters with freelook and (usually) more bindings.

For that matter, I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone defending the old digital gamepads, even for Doom.

(looking would disturb turning, and viceversa)

Why?

Record your best UV-MAX or UV-whatever demo of any map you want first with mouse+WASD and then with whatever gamepad arrangement you have, and post it in demos, if you truly believe they are perfectly equivalent methods of control.

I already said that mouse is leet.

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Da Werecat said:

I believe you're the only one who's talking about Compet-N. :)


If someone says that gamepads are no different than using any other methods, then of course I'll challenge him to the ultimate proving grounds for any Dooming claims: a COMPET-N demo, which can be done with less hassle than setting up a deathmatch.

Da Werecat said:

Actually, show me a person who'd defend gamepads for playing classic Doom. I've mostly heard such things in the context of modern shooters with freelook and (usually) more bindings.


...on consoles, I bet, which is more a matter of necessity than anything else. Same as the bad coffee made by the bad wife ;-)

Da Werecat said:

For that matter, I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone defending the old digital gamepads, even for Doom.


You didn't stick around here long enough, that's why, but yeah, there are such people too. Though how much of that was honest, adamant belief and how much was just trying to troll me, is debatable.

Da Werecat said:

Why?


You mean you can push an analog stick perfectly in one direction plane (L-R) without affecting the other plane (U-D) at all? I'm honestly impressed. Even with a mouse you can't avoid having movement in one axis somewhat affecting the other ("cross-talk") but due to larger movements and controling it with your entire arm, the total error is kept low. If you can keep the same amount of precision with a tiny and ridig analog stick controlled only by your thumb, then congratulations, you're 1337 not only with the mouse.

Now, there are sticks that allow you to do just that, but they are not found in gamepads:



Notice how the sticks are articulated on this RC transmitter. In addition, they contain internal ratchets (especially the left stick, which controls the throttle in the U-D direction) exactly to prevent the rudder control (on the same stick) to interfere with it. The right control is less restricted and spring-loaded on both axes, but it has a different task, where some crosstalk won't matter much. It still is way more accurate than the analog wobblers use on gamepads.

Gamepads, especially the classic PSX types, have no such features.

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Playing games is not only about setting records. Otherwise no one (in the current century, at least) would want to play with only the keyboard, which is clearly inferior to the keyboard+mouse scheme. Although I'm sure there are at least some records set with the keyboard alone. If you persist long enough, you can get decent results even with a less leet control scheme.

Maes said:

You mean you can push an analog stick perfectly in one direction plane (L-R) without affecting the other plane (U-D) at all?

Why would you want to perfectly separate looking from turning? You just look wherever the hell you want to look. How precise is your aim/movement depends on practice.

Okay, who left a portable derailer on the track?

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Da Werecat said:

Why would you want to perfectly separate looking from turning? You just look wherever the hell you want to look.


Not perfectly, but enough to avoid undue interference. In a deathmatch, having freelook interefere with turning means death, when trying to aim that SSG in a point-blank turning contest. Smaller controller = smaller movements required to keep error small.

Da Werecat said:

How precise is your aim/movement depends on practice.


Practice can only partially compensate for what is otherwise a handicap.

Da Werecat said:

Although I'm sure there are at least some records set with the keyboard alone.


The keyboard in Doom does have some very specific advantages which may be only exploited by speedrunners, but yeah, in the ultimate combat test, aka Deathmatch or slaughter maps, it wouldn't stand a chance even vs a novice using WASD+mouse. Don't forget that Doom has multiple styles of gameplay, and was meant to be completable with the "standard" controls, but just like in High Jumping, as better techniques evolved, no one would willingly go back to the old ones, except in a restricted/special league.




Da Werecat said:

If you persist long enough, you can get decent results even with a less leet control scheme.


This happens in real sports, too, as there are leagues which only permit certain techniques to be used. E.g. not all styles of swimming are equally efficient, so you don't see mixing them in any event.

For the same reason you don't see para-athletes competing head-to-head with fully able-bodied athletes (Oskar Pistorius notwithstanding).

That doesn't stop people from competing using "lesser" or more difficult styles though. But I have a leering suspicion that in videogaming, it's hardly a matter of sportsmanship or "just wanting a challenge".

Once again, when will be seeing the first Gamepad COMPET-N category and the first Gamepad Deathmatch League? The results should be interesting to watch if high level play is still possible...or boring to death like watching an old lady play Doom if it isn't ;-)

I'm waiting :-p

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Maes said:

In a deathmatch, having freelook interefere with turning means death, when trying to aim that SSG in a point-blank turning contest.

Seems like a problem for more "horizontal" games.

Maes said:

Once again, when will be seeing the first Gamepad COMPET-N category and the first Gamepad Deathmatch League? The results should be interesting to watch if high level play is still possible...or boring to death like watching an old lady play Doom if it isn't ;-)

I already said multiple times that keyboard+mouse is the most leet and "efficient" way of playing shooter games. Both gamepads and keyboard-only controls are handicapped compared to it. Not sure what you're trying to achieve here.

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Da Werecat said:

Not sure what you're trying to achieve here.


Obvious. Trying to get some hypercompetitive nut to say "I'll show that Maes what me and my gamepad are capable of!" and who knows, maybe the much-fabled "gamepadders league" will finally be born ;-)

After all, there was a "modem league" back in the early 2000s...

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XBOX 360 CNTRLS 4 LYF

Seriously though, I wish I could get my friends into KB+Mouse Dooming, but hey, they all like playing with 360 controllers. I'll take what I can get, at least they're Doomin'!

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360 controllers are my least favorite design ever. I've always preferred the PS2/PS3 design, or the Sega Saturn controllers. That said, I hate playing with controllers in general, and only do so for old console games like Sonic the Hedgehog.

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I've actually been quite enjoying playing my PC games with Steam's Big Picture Mode with a PS4 controller (with an Xinput wrapper) on an HDTV as of late. Am I heretical scum?

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Sodaholic said:

Am I heretical scum?

PUT HIM TO THE FLAME

I think it's fun to play Doom in all kinds of ways. Naturally I love Mouse/KB, but I also find it fun on the 360, Playstation, and SNES controller, assuming we're talking vanilla flags (no looking up/down).

The SNES controller works well on the PC version, since you can circle strafe. I really wish it was in the official SNES port, that's honestly the worst thing about it by far. I can take the basic GFX and music, no problem!

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Da Werecat said:

Keyboard is digital, any adequate gamepad is analogue. This alone makes the latter superior.

But the mouse is more leet, ofc.


The mouse is analog and aiming is the only control that needs to be analog. The only speed you should ever move at in Doom is "as fast as possible", ergo analog movement is useless.

Controllers work wonderfully, better than keyboard, for things like platform games, arcade racing games, shmups, fighting games...come to think of it, back before everything became multiplat, those games were, even when they weren't console exclusive, much more common on consoles than PC...I WONDER WHY?

It couldn't be that different genres evolved on and were shaped by the devices they ran on and the input methods used to play them, could it?

Naw, couldn't be.

For a more detailed and less flippant explanation, there are basically two ways to direct a character through an environment, pointing and steering. The mouse is a pointing instrument. Set up properly, there is a 1:1 correspondence between moving the mouse and moving the viewpoint. A joystick is a steering instrument that gradually alters the direction and/or velocity of a moving object. For instance, a third person action adventure game is best suited to steering. You move your character around through a distant vantage point, sometimes slowly, sometimes rapidly, and your entire character interacts with the world through combat, acrobatics, platforming, etc.. A first person shooter like Doom is definitely a pointing game--you're locked inside Doomguy's head and you interact with the world through his gun. You point your GNU at the DEMNS, blam, they die.

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The glorious PC master race does not meddle with peasants who are fine playing FPS games with gamepads and 30 fps.

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Woolie Wool said:

The mouse is analog...

I know.

...and aiming is the only control that needs to be analog.

Debatable.

The only speed you should ever move at in Doom is "as fast as possible"...

Debatable.

Obsidian said:

What thread was this split off?

Something about Doom 64 on 32x.
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/1303508

Also I play Doom with only a keyboard.

Ew, so inefficient. :(

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When the goal is to inch forward, I find very quick taps on a keyboard key easier than moving a joystick. A keyboard key always has the same output, so I intuitively know the length of time I need to press a key for a given movement, even if we're talking 1/20th of a second, and if I'm going too far in one direction I can adjust without delay by switching to another key.

On the other hand, a joystick requires manual dexterity and a higher level of prediction, two skills I lack entirely; and I frequently throw myself into various holes and death pits. Even in platformers played with a gamepad, I sometimes use the arrow keys rather than the joystick if both options are available.

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Phml said:

When the goal is to inch forward, I find very quick taps on a keyboard key easier than moving a joystick. A keyboard key always has the same output, so I intuitively know the length of time I need to press a key for a given movement, even if we're talking 1/20th of a second, and if I'm going too far in one direction I can adjust without delay by switching to another key.

On the other hand, a joystick requires manual dexterity and a higher level of prediction, two skills I lack entirely; and I frequently throw myself into various holes and death pits. Even in platformers played with a gamepad, I sometimes use the arrow keys rather than the joystick if both options are available.

The keyboard vs. gamepad debate (which is not the same as kb&mouse vs. gamepad) largely boils down to personal experiences with games. I know people who can't play shmups with keyboards because they can't do those precise taps to save their lives, while personally I couldn't bullet hell on a controller ever. Yet, on an other hand, I do much better with controllers in simple platformers because I grew up on Megaman on the NES (give me jump and shoot with thumb alone every day of the week).

Oh, and fighting games on gamepads are from the seventh layer of Hell.

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I've always played Doom with a gamepad.

Whenever I've tried to play with keyboard/mouse I end up getting killed dozens of times in just the early E1 levels.

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Unreal Engine games I like a controller. Old school Quake based FPS I like mouse and keyboard.

Before I hooked my PC to my TV it was 100% mouse and keyboard.

Platformers and dual stick shooters are controller games of course.

I remember my old Nostromo controller was awesome for a good 5 - 10 years before they updated the software and suddenly I needed to bind keys to the buttons. Wow did that suck. I had to waste 15 minutes to an hour binding controls.

My 360 controller I have bound to mouse keys. Whenever I hit the back button it turns into a mouse. When I hit the back button again its a 360 controller. Somehow Valve thinks its impossible to have a mouse bound to a controller without stupid analog stick replacements. Kudos Valve your controller is 10 years too late.

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Master race + steam does not compute to me because how exactly is it a master race when it shackled to a service like steam which means limited freedom.

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I never did get fully used to playing FPS games with a gamepad or controller back when I played UT3 with a friend on his PS3. KB+M just feels more natural to me.

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