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Brad_tilf

It's pretty sad - OBLIGE makes better maps than most people

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I started playing around with OBLIGE and it's different options, and while I feel that it is lacking in certain areas, I feel that it makes better maps than many people. It is far better than the old SLIGE program and texture alignment, game play, etc... are very much within the control of the player and when it's done (takes a minute for a full megawad) you actually have something that is (or can be) fun to play. Most of the maps I've seen lately - those on the archives and the ones submitted to DWS have been total crap. Really disappointing.
:-(

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I like how it's random nature throws out some pretty unconventional setups that wouldn't normally occur to mappers. It's a testament to the versatility of the balancing in Doom that it can handle most gameplay situations that are thrown at it - even without sentient thought behind it. It's downside is that it's hit and miss I find.

Not that I've used it that way but Oblige could be useful for stirring the creative juices during mapping block.

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I use it for homing in on specific gameplay scenarios without having to go into an editor and do it myself. For example, my most recent usage for it was to create a map that used exclusively BFGs and Cyberdemons, as most of my experiences with Cyberdemons are usually the one-on-one encounters in a decent sized arena with lots of rockets or a supershotgun and a ton of shells. I don't really have much experience BFGing large groups of Cybies at a time, and fortunately I had Oblige to create that type of encounter for me.

Unfortunately, it proved I'm embarrassingly bad at dealing with cyberdemons.

Oblige is also fun for all-berserk megawads, all-imp megawads, and all revenant megawads if that's what you're into.

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The sky generator definitely makes MUCH better skies than I can draw. Btw is it possible to use Oblige strictly as a sky generator and just output a bunch of skies? Some of them are pretty cool.

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yakfak said:

so, Brad, who are these people that OBLIGE can out-map? I think you've just gone mad =P


Try to download some random 1994 map from /idgames and there you are.

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Graf Zahl said:

Try to download some random 1994 map from /idgames and there you are.


Or download a random map from the past several weeks.

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Brad_tilf said:

Or download a random map from the past several weeks.


Are you gonna give an example?

All OBLIGE seems to do is construct levels from a few different algorithms and fill them with tastelessly placed monsters and equipment. any novice mapper can create something with superior character to that... and frankly, since the advent of the current era's more user-friendly tools, you no longer see new mapmakers creating STARTAN doors or pinned monsters unless it's in jest - 1994 amateur quality doesn't really exist anymore.

(that's not to insult OBLIGE because I think it's a good thought exercise made real - what if computers could create serviceable maps upon demand? but I wonder if it can ever overtake a sentient mind in terms of building refreshing maps? So far it hasn't!)

Maybe you mean that you prefer the silly, precarious monster placement in OBLIGE maps to the more professional wave we see in BTSX and Speed of Doom and stuff? I guess I can understand that...

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yakfak said:

any novice mapper can create something with superior character to that...



Yes, they COULD.
But some just DON'T!

Give me some Slige/Oblige map and I'll point you to something worse made by a real person for each one of them!

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Graf Zahl said:

Yes, they COULD.
But some just DON'T!

Give me some Slige/Oblige map and I'll point you to something worse made by a real person for each one of them!


Not just "some"
AS a good example (and I won't mention the author). I had one in my inbox recently that both I, and Blue Paladin, attempted. It was horrible - boring, too many upper level monsters for the weapon (not weapons) that were available - missing textures, you name it - a real mess. And that is one that will never make the review pages because it's so bad, it simply cannot be reviewed.

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Brad_tilf said:

And that is one that will never make the review pages because it's so bad, it simply cannot be reviewed.


Now we need an AVGN-like review of WAD files. Imagine AVGN quality reviews, but on DOOM PWADS! WOW!

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Brad_tilf said:

Not just "some"
AS a good example (and I won't mention the author). I had one in my inbox recently that both I, and Blue Paladin, attempted. It was horrible - boring, too many upper level monsters for the weapon (not weapons) that were available - missing textures, you name it - a real mess. And that is one that will never make the review pages because it's so bad, it simply cannot be reviewed.


I bet it was me, or maybe I'm one of those dumbasses who can't map for shit.

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OBLIGE is constantly evolving to include new things so it does make reasonable to good playable maps. Predictable in terms of interior rooms at times but the outdoor regions of V6 are really nice.

Once prefabs get activated, the hacky crates will be gone and will feel less artificial.

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Oblige is awesome, but I think it's crazy to say the average WAD from the last few months is worse than what Oblige makes. Are you playing those 1994/1995 re-uploads, or troll maps or something? Perhaps maps that need the Skulltag resources?

I've played many maps that are worse than what Oblige makes, but I certainly would say the majority of stuff uploaded to /idgames is better.

I'm curious if my maps are some of the ones you think are shitty!

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I'm in the mood to play a few maps of slige, does anyone have a good seed or link to the map?

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For reference, when I looked at the logs for my website a few months ago, I found that there were several unique visitors who seemed to be downloading the SLIGE MegaWAD on a daily basis.

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I gave Oblige a try, since I've never used it before.

ROFLMAO.

The level I got was filled with Pinkies, Cacos, and Viles, and never gave me anything other than a single-barrel (in fact, it had 3 pre-placed single barrels!), aside from an SSG at the very end of the level, in front of the exit switch!

There's no way Oblige makes better maps than most of what people are uploading.

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I think that this perception of Oblige/Slige doing "good" maps may rely on the fact that they present no obvious flaws: no misaligned textures, stuck monsters, levels with no exit, etc. I gave it a try and created like 8-10 single maps, and while the results are not bad, they certainly lack that "cleverness" that sometimes is even found in the most mediocre wads. So, Oblige or Slige levels may be technically good, but they can't compare by no means with an average mapper willing to put at least some significant effort.

EDIT

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Zed said:

I think that this perception of Oblige/Slige doing "good" maps may rely on the fact that they present no obvious flaws: no misaligned textures, stuck monsters, levels with no exit, etc. I gave it a try and created like 8-10 single maps, and while the results are not bad, they certainly lack that "cleverness" that sometimes is even found in the most mediocre wads. So, Oblige or Slige levels may be technically good, but they can't compare by no means with an average mapper willing to put at least some significant effort.

EDIT


And that, right there, is the point. I don't know who's uploading some of this crap but if you play some of these wads you'll know that no significant effort was put forth. Not all, of course - there are some damn fine maps out there.

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I used to use that back then since I couldn't test my maps on Doom Builder 2 due to the source port not being in the same folder that has Fmodex.dll :P

I still use it, but rarely. Mostly for the cool skies.

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Nah. Oblige can't match real mappers in creativity (and also sense for visuals and even progression and gameplay, if the mapper is at least a bit competent). There's enough (at least moderately) skilled mappers and well designed / ideafull maps.

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