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Katamori

Being a full-time level designer?

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After 4 years of Doom editing (holy damn cow...) I realized that I would be happy for the rest of my life, if I may create maps and/or levels for games to fulfill my creativity.

My question is (mostly to those who have experience in gaming industry) that: can I be a full-time map designer? Joining projects, creating the maps for the games for money, and then going on, or maybe even to work for a single company - how does it work? Is it even possible?

If not, what kind of additional jobs do I have to do?

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First of all, try mapping for something that isn't 20 years old. It's a different experience. Secondly, do other people like your maps? (Shows how much time I spend with DOOM that I have no idea what the answer to this is...)

Thirdly, mapping in modern games isn't even one job. Things like planning, layout, texturing, lighting, and scripting are often totally separate work done in phases by people with different skill sets. Making stuff for a small game might mean you do any combination of those things, or all of them.

I suspect most people who don't find some path through school to a game studio rise out of teams building mods or low-budget games online. Maybe go play around in that arena for a while.

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I didn't think of creating maps for AAA games - that's a really good point you're telling. And also, that's what I wanted to know: that "planning, layout, texturing, lighting, and scripting are often totally separate work done". I mean, I should have known, I just didn't think much enough of it.

My thoughts were around making maps for smaller (~indie) games. I've been developing some very small games in the previous year, because I wanted to go on this way, but I realized that with much better programmers, it would be more efficient if I would create the levels themselves.

Your last 2 sentences are exactly what I was wondering. We have The Adventures of Square, which I think is going to boost either the carreer OR the reputation of several guys who are working on it. Of course, I don't want to copy them or something, it's just good to see that such things are happening even here. But it's less relevant here, so take it as a small note.

I really would start modding other games (Deus Ex is in my main focus now, but UnrealED is way less comfortable than Doom Builder, needless to say...), but I still would stick to 2 or max. 3, to be able to create something extraordinary in any, and I guess that doesn't happen if my concentration is divided.

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1. Don't waste time or money with shitty for-profit "art schools".
2. Try to make connections, get your foot in the door as QA, scope what the company looks like on the inside and figure out what to do from there.

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When I was still interested in game industry more seriously I did my work practice as a level designer.

If you want a job as a level designer, you should make a portfolio with images and/or videos of your levels. It should also probably include more than just Doom levels, something that's more 3D.

It's also probably a good idea to know something about 3D modeling and texturing, etc, especially if you work with some smaller team/studio.

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Sodaholic said:

1. Don't waste time or money with shitty for-profit "art schools".
2. Try to make connections, get your foot in the door as QA, scope what the company looks like on the inside and figure out what to do from there.


Haha don't worry, never planned the first one, I'm a terrible artist. At least if it comes to drawing or modeling. Second one sounds good and wise.

Jimi said:

When I was still interested in game industry more seriously I did my work practice as a level designer.

If you want a job as a level designer, you should make a portfolio with images and/or videos of your levels. It should also probably include more than just Doom levels, something that's more 3D.

It's also probably a good idea to know something about 3D modeling and texturing, etc, especially if you work with some smaller team/studio.


Ah, thanks, gonna remember to it. As I mentio above, I'm a terrible artist, 3D modeling has always been something I afraided to try, because I've seen several unfinished 3D models in the past and they seemed to be even uglier for me than unfinished 2D arts.

I'm better at finding out ideas and places, that's why I'm thinking of map design. Arts and good engine can be done much much better than I feel I could do.

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The problem is that level design today is very much a process of creating models and placing them in a worldspace. Even if you go with something brush-based, it's still pretty close to modeling.

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I'm highly amused right now, imagining someone in the industry working on a modern AAA title, spending an entire year just texturing leaves or modeling eyeballs.

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The difference with laying out a map seems to be mostly that you aren't expected to be a texture artist. Newer games that require custom textures for most maps just have a team that works on that part and the layout guys make lots of orange spaces. Alternatively, the mappers are mostly placing models on terrain painted by the artists.

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AAA games are beautiful, the people behind them have incredible talent. But I think small games, with less people or a handful or a single person working on it has potential to have far greater character. You could compare this to big budget Hollywood films vs independent films.

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That sounds like the gaming/geek equivalent of a valley girl wanting to be a movie star. Yeah, they might all (think they) have the moves and the swag, but only one in a thousand or so makes it.

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Funny you should mention this actually: I applied for a school last year with a portfolio mostly made of Doom maps and somehow I got accepted. It's a foundation course mind you, but it's definitely a step up. Who'd have thought Doom maps still had some bearing nowdays. :)

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I went to an open house for a graduate program that was supposedly for an MFA in media arts. One of the professors told me, "well, we're not looking for who ever could make the best graphics, or games. Rather we want to focus more on concept. Also, our classes aren't going to help you become a better artist. Instead we'll help you out by trying to get you some connections."

I walked away from the experience realizing it was a steaming pile of horse shit. It no wonder it didn't run due to low enrollment. Its was a bunch of artsy fartsy assholes trying to skirt having to work, by selling a snake-oil degree.

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Go to Source, Unreal or Unity. There's a lot of money there.

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Start small. Skyrim would be a good place, the editor is almost as easy as Doombuilder but since the resources are modular it's pretty easy to make stuff. Making caves or anything organic is quite harder than a hallway but not too hard. After you complete your first level try to apply for a larger modding team for Skyrim and then possibly move on to other engines, like Unreal or CryEngine.

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I feel like Skyrim and the Elder Scrolls Editor is really good and efficient, just putting together pre fab hallways chunks and room parts. Then detailing.

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Kontra Kommando said:

I went to an open house for a graduate program that was supposedly for an MFA in media arts. One of the professors told me, "well, we're not looking for who ever could make the best graphics, or games. Rather we want to focus more on concept. Also, our classes aren't going to help you become a better artist. Instead we'll help you out by trying to get you some connections."

I walked away from the experience realizing it was a steaming pile of horse shit. It no wonder it didn't run due to low enrollment. Its was a bunch of artsy fartsy assholes trying to skirt having to work, by selling a snake-oil degree.


That's how I felt about the Art Institute. I think I was 23 they were trying to headhunt me, get me to enroll. Well when I was 23, I had been a professional for 6 years making $60,000 a year (when I was 17, I made $20k). All I took from their open house and constant phone calls was what you did, we don't make artists, we make connections. I had all the connections, more than I can use. My manager has to say no to people and it kills me we have to say no or chose one client over another due to a conflict of interest.

I kind of feel like that's what college is in general. A stamp of approval that employers look for. Well 15 years doing what I'm doing, no college degree for it (I went into medicine for a degree). A lot of the designers we hire straight out of college or still in college end up working at Walmart or McDonalds in 4 years anyway. Our company is the first step on their descent. Heck we've had a few designers bluntly tell us 2 months in they're not sure design is right for them and they spent 4 years getting a bachelors.

What's awesome is one of my old clients that hired me for a side job for a startup company... started teaching his own courses with a bunch of industry professionals on how to startup successful startups. Well that fucker's startup failed when I worked under him. Here he is teaching a course. The old startup company's website goes to the course. Part of me wants to show up just so I can ask him questions. $12,000 tuition for 12 weeks. 60+ hours of school per week.

Like they say, the unsuccessful teach.

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If you strictly want to be a professional level designer, forget about going to college. Just forget it.

Also, you seriously do need to learn to make quality levels with toolkits that were not made for 20 year old games.

Stuff like this:
this image is over 3MB, don't display it inline

http://i1.wp.com/blog.digitaltutors.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Reflections1.jpeg?w=800

https://forums.unrealengine.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1030&d=1397992482

If you can, also try to pick up other game related skills on the side. Stuff like textures, game programming, etc. Anything to build your skill set and make yourself useful. That's what you need to concentrate on.

Good luck...

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The first two images are from Unreal 4's demo files. The cave lighting and 'reflections' demo that someone made a fight animation demo.

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geo said:

The first two images are from Unreal 4's demo files. The cave lighting and 'reflections' demo that someone made a fight animation demo.

Your point being?

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sheridan said:

Your point being?


They aren't levels, they're showcases. One is a room, the other is at least a big cave, but no where to go.

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Why do they need to have anywhere to go to serve as examples? A full level would be the same kinds of things, but usually just with more content.

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Honestly, it's funny how different answers I got: almos fifty-fifty on "forget that" and "you have the chance". It's okay though, I guess you have different experiences.

sheridan, I'm absolutely ready to go to modern engines if it comes to map creating. Thanks for telling anyway!

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Exactly, the point is that modern level design is a highly visual field and to work in the industry proper you need to have more than just knowledge of good layouts and design principals to be a success. You have to be a fucking good artist too, or at least a programmer who can implement all the mechanics for a game experience.

I mean, if you think triple AAA devs will pay you a salary to crank out minecraft tier stuff or click together caves with Skyrim's creation kit you are pretty much of out of your mind.

But yeah Katamori, if you force yourself to work hard and learn the necessary skills, I have no doubt you could apply yourself to making some cool shit some day :) all you need is the gumption to get started.

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I don't have a career in level designing. But I do make custom levels and other modifications to Doom wads as a personal hobby. If you really are considering some kind of career in level designing, you're going to have to learn how to use some newer editors like Unity. Being proficient in editors, like Doombuilder2 or SLADE3 just isn't enough to put on a resume` when applying for a level designing job.

And also, I highly doubt the job of a level designer really pays that well.

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the_miano said:

And also, I highly doubt the job of a level designer really pays that well.

It doesn't - hence the fact that you'll want to bolster every other area you can imagine to make yourself more useful and valuable, not just as a "level designer" but as a game designer too. Regardless of the tools you use, if your skill set basically boils down to throwing brushes, prefabs, and set pieces around in an editor, you are not going to last long at any studio, period.

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sheridan said:

Exactly, the point is that modern level design is a highly visual field and to work in the industry proper you need to have more than just knowledge of good layouts and design principals to be a success. You have to be a fucking good artist too, or at least a programmer who can implement all the mechanics for a game experience.

I mean, if you think triple AAA devs will pay you a salary to crank out minecraft tier stuff or click together caves with Skyrim's creation kit you are pretty much of out of your mind.

But yeah Katamori, if you force yourself to work hard and learn the necessary skills, I have no doubt you could apply yourself to making some cool shit some day :) all you need is the gumption to get started.


What about indie development, or even some high profile mods like Skywind? He didn't necessarily say he wanted AAA level stuff.

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DooM_RO said:

What about indie development, or even some high profile mods like Skywind? He didn't say he wanted AAA level stuff.


I'm going to do more research on some Indie games

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