How do I stop sucking at mapping?

So my recent maps, while I personally thought they looked good, have been pretty horribly received both on the NewWorldChronicals, and in general.

Looking back at my old submissions I want to vomit at my maps, and I think my newer submissions are a good improvement in my opinion, but they still seem below sub-par.

I've looked at well received WADs, and I took note that they all were pretty well detailed and then I compared them to my WADs which were simply boring rooms.

So in vault.wad, I tried adding alot of detail, but apparently as it turns out throwing mindless detail into places where it doesn't fit doesn't work; I quote the NWC post:

"It's a reasonably structured and detailed techbase, though the detail usage might feel odd at times, and not really beautiful"

One part of the review sticks out to me more than this though:

"Gameplay consists of clearing one cramped room after another, with occasional small-scale monster ambushes. There's not much more to it, in terms of interesting combat situations. "



So in light of these... I am just extremely confused.

TL;DR: I suck at mapping, how do I improve? Some quick questions

1: How do I create more 'engaging' battles/Interesting combat situations?
2: How do I add detail to a map where it actually would look good?
3: Tips in general for a beginner mapping.

I thank you for your time.

I know you've already started on this but the best advice I can give is to continue analysing maps you think don't suck and imitate them until it is something you are comfortable doing under your own initiative.

I've found there can be a lot of people here who will post reviews that don't have much merit or are not particularly helpful for the level designer. Players can play a map, not have much fun with it, and post a review that doesn't correctly articulate or identify the problems they have with it, using words that describe feelings they had while playing instead of a tangible issue with the map that can be modified in a few short mouse clicks.

In my experience, I've found newstuff reviews to be pretty loathsome to read save for some specific reviewers. At times, describing a specific bad quality of the map, then continuing to describe the rest of the map negatively even if it was good just to emphasize that the original bad quality of it dragged it down. Or sometimes open up saying they had a bad day before playing doom and that this map only made it worse or something.

If I were you, it would help to make a friend around here; someone you can trust to give you valuable criticism and offer constructive suggestions and have them playtest your levels before releasing them to the public. It will help with the quality of your mapping and your mapping speed. Try not to think about it too hard. Being your own harshest critic will drive you mad and stall your mapping.

Yeah, reviews suck because the feelings you experience while playing a map isn't something you can accurately describe with words. You can only try to find some stuff to can comment on, like, "oh right, it's very flat, that must be why I didn't like it that much". But then you remember other very flat maps that you enjoyed greatly and you realize that your argument is worthless. Nothing can be explained.

I think I might not like the advice to analyze and imitate other maps you enjoy. If I ever manage to make a semi-decent map, I won't feel particularly great if it will turn out to be just a ripoff of something. Would be much cooler if I managed to come up with something my own but of course that won't ever happen, so I guess I should just accept that all I can do is to steal.

revan1141 said:

1: How do I create more 'engaging' battles/Interesting combat situations?
2: How do I add detail to a map where it actually would look good?
3: Tips in general for a beginner mapping.

I warn you, I'm no good mapper myself, but here are a few advices:

Start with reading these pages. They're a bit old, but still more than relevant guidelines for a good mapping. Just ignore the part about Visplane Overflows if you're not mapping for vanilla engine:

http://doomnexus.drdteam.org/Tutorial/basics.html
http://doomnexus.drdteam.org/Tutorial/style.html

Keep in mind that your map will be played by experienced players who have already seen a lot during the years. Their want their game to be comfortably playable, without unnecessary obstructions, appealing to look at, and providing an appropriate level of challenge (appropriate for the particular person). Simple linear corridor-shootage had become stale.

Providing enough space for a comfortable movement is always a good advice. In order to make inventive and interesting combat situations, feel free to employ various features that the Doom engine offers: Lots of variation in heights, lighting, texturing, shapes of architecture, usable strategies etc. For example multiple monster types attacking the player from multiple heights and directions, but not randomly, but meaningfully to give him an efficient practice challenge.

Players like to feel freedom while playing, so don't force them to go along just one linear path, and don't force them to handle each encounter by a specific way, using a specific weapon, etc. I personally enjoy nonlinear and variously interconnected layouts a lot. Don't build your map only out of rooms connected by doors and hallways at ground level - that's about the worst thing you can do. Skillsaw, a very skilled mapper, has recently posted some tips how to make a good map playable with run-and-gun style. Feel free to make variously shaped and interconnected areas at different heights and of different light levels.

But keep in mind that gameplay should be your primary focus - better accustomize your architecture and aesthetics to suit gameplay purposes, not vice versa. When placing monsters, do it so that the player will be challenged, but at the same time, he must be able to kill them all sooner that it gets tedious.

All in all, to make good maps, you should preferably thoroughly think them out, mainly their gameplay aspect. But it shouldn't be difficult once you get into it, develop your style etc. Mapping can be a fun activity too, at least for me it is. Good luck!

Memfis said:

I think I might not like the advice to analyze and imitate other maps you enjoy. If I ever manage to make a semi-decent map, I won't feel particularly great if it will turn out to be just a ripoff of something. Would be much cooler if I managed to come up with something my own but of course that won't ever happen, so I guess I should just accept that all I can do is to steal.

There is a balance. I obviously don't recommend recreating whole areas vertex by vertex, unless it is just for practice to better understand a technique rather than for release to the public. I mean analysing levels you like to work out why you like them and then use these principles in your own design.

Oh and to OP, Memfis levels are some useful examples of good maps, to get you started. :-p

I don't think any combat situation is intrinsically interesting. What's interesting is variety and keeping the players on their toes. You can come up with the perfect combat encounter, if you repeat it twenty times on the same map it will get boring fast.

So, vary. Have some monster ambush you in a corridor as a closet suddenly opens in your back when you open a door, but then don't repeat that. Instead have a room with an upper section that you'll visit later, and there are monsters both at your level and the upper level. The noise from the firefight will cause some cacos or lost souls to come outside through the windows. Then somewhere else you can have monsters teleport in. Use different types of monsters in different situations, too. For example, revenants, you can use them sometimes as a small horde that'll rush to connect with the player, and sometimes they can instead be placed on turrets to harass the player with their seeker missiles while the player has to deal with a more pressing threat.

So make sure that the environment (speaking in terms of layout/geometry more than visual theme) is varied (sometimes cramped, sometimes wide open; sometimes straight, sometimes twisted; sometimes relatively flat, sometimes full of height variations, etc.), and that the monster encounters do not feel like a copy/paste.

I agree that most reviews emphasize negativity many times to the point of being worse than the level map.

I wrote two mapping documents that I recommend. Some people get hung up on the emphasis on "model universe", but the design concepts covers the issues of any level wad mapping and how to deal with differing player expectations. Even the default Doom II concept is a "model universe". The fault of many maps is in trying to create rooms to run around, without putting it in any context such as a "model universe", which leaves it bland.

Level concepts:
http://doomlegacy.sourceforge.net/hosted/level_concept_r2.zip

Level design patterns:
http://doomlegacy.sourceforge.net/hosted/level_design_r3.txt

DoomLegacy docs page:
http://doomlegacy.sourceforge.net/hosted/doom_editing.shtml

I've noticed a thing about my method of making maps.

Basically all I do is just make a new map in Doom Builder, then I just start making a room... And I try to make it look pretty. That's it. And I try to follow a specific theme...

But what made Vault different was I actually had a basic layout in my head and idea of how the level played, so I went ahead and did it, and it came out better than my last ones...

I guess I need to think of an idea and layout before mapping, but it's hard coming up with ideas.

Yes, having a rough idea of the layout and progression before starting to map is a good approach. Doodling randomly a map layout without having any end goal in mind can be a way to break out of a mapping block but it's unlikely to give you results that you can use directly as they are.


As for detailing: I think a good rule of thumb (at least for human structures) is to keep in mind that form follows function. If a bit of detailing looks like it makes sense where it is, it'll probably look okay; whereas if it doesn't make sense, then it'll look like crap.

Example: a nukage pit -- with a computer console on the ceiling! That's pointless detail which doesn't make sense, so it looks bad. Inversely, an office lobby -- with big industrial pipes behind the receptionist's desk! Again, doesn't make sense and looks bad.

Even though the levels in Doom tend to be abstract instead of realist, it's the kind of rule of thumb that still applies. Rooms can be recognized as being something. Look at E1M1 and how the nukage pool with its zigzag bridge isn't in the computer room, for example.

This is easy to extrapolate to other themes than tech bases. You're making sewer tunnels? Don't detail them with bookshelf textures.

You're making sewer tunnels? Don't detail them with bookshelf textures.

Cool map theme alert! I'm totally stealing this. Thanks, Gez.

I actually have a folder of maps called "The_Vault" where I discard maps that I stopped working on, incase I ever want to return. In it, there is a map which is set on a space station I guess, which doesn't really look half bad, I mean it looks like I atleast had some sense of what I wanted stuff to look like but I guess I ran out of steam...

It's got 4 maps, but I'm gonna go ahead and make a new map with the same theme, although I have an idea of how to kind of make it a bit more interesting...

I want it to also be a run and gun type... So here we go! I got a theme for the map in mind, the gametype, now I need to go brainstorm up some ideas for the layout.

In regards to detail, you should use it as a means to convey an idea rather than to fill up space.

I've actually abandoned the whole concept of detail entirely and have found that if I simply focus on the idea that I'm trying to convey with a space, the map will detail itself according what is needed to fulfill that idea.

A good example of this is if you look at something like KDIZD and then look at TSOZD or BTSX. In the former, detail is essentially random sectors everywhere that exist only to fill up space:

http://doom.starehry.eu/http://doom.starehry.eu/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Knee-Deep-in-Zdoom-02.jpg

While in something like TSOZD or BTSX it's used to convey an idea:

http://essel.spork-chan.net/tsozdpromo/052911/tsozd11.png

You might notice that the better "detailed" mapsets, even though they might use more sectors and linedefs, aren't actually that "detailed" in overall appearance at all, they simply look like something from a more advanced engine.

I can really only speak from my experience, but... I think what helped me improve a lot was mimicry. what this meant in many cases was thinking of/looking at a map I really admired, and trying to recreate a particular section of it (or something very similar to it) on my own, looking back at the map itself only if I needed it. I think a lot of the reason this helped me though is that in the beginning I had a really hard time looking at something in-game and then imagining what that thing would look like in DB, made of sectors. that probably had something to do with my youth too, though.

in any case I still do this sort of thing today. if there's an aspect of my mapping I feel is lacking, or if there's a certain style I want to try, if all else fails I'll just take a segment of a map I want to mimic and try to recreate it. I suppose my thinking with that is that, even if it's mimicry, going through the motions and doing it yourself can help you understand how/why things are put together the way they are, in theory making it easier for you to do it on your own next time.

Just finished up the last touches on my new map, and comparing it to my previous maps I think I improved alot here. Obviously a bit of bias there though.

Does anyone know when the FTP server is gonna get fixed so I can upload it?

revan1141 said:

Does anyone know when the FTP server is gonna get fixed so I can upload it?

I don't know. But before you release final version to /idgames, you can upload your map to a file sharing site and post a thread in Wads&Mods with a link. Lots of people do it this way, it seems to have only benefits: Catching bugs, more attention, possibility of improvement.

Quote: Inversely, an office lobby -- with big industrial pipes behind the receptionist's desk!

Reminds me of some of the offices where I worked. One had a pillar, looked like a U. Some had pipes.

We wanted a isolated ground wire for the VAX. The building people put a 4 inch copper pipe from from the 3rd floor to the basement, right through the corner of someone's office, to use as a ground.
(Later they also sneakily hooked an RF sputtering chamber to the same pipe and drove the VAX nuts. Apparently did not understand the concept of ISOLATED ground.)

Pneumatic tube network... You don't see them often anymore but a few decades ago many big offices had them. But anywhere you need to send small physical objects around, they can still be useful.

Maps that I dislike tend to have an unbalance between weapons/ammo, monsters, and other powerups/health/armor. I'm not that hellbent on over-detailed maps, but I tend to dislike maps that are just plain ugly. If you are looking for some good single player maps, you could probably find some inspiration from Southern Cross: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?file=levels/doom2/Ports/s-u/scge.zip

Your detailing skills will develop in time. Just look into more singleplayer wads (and even some DM WADS too) and you'll get a sense of some new detailing styles.

Also to add to the discussion, I know this sounds kinda silly but you have to enjoy mapping, or at least *try* to. Just have fun, play your map over and over in weird ways or mess with parts of the map. Try speedrunning it, add in a pointless shortcut for no reason (Then probably remove it or re-work it), mess with insane height variations, etc.

I've found that the designs I've done best (Not many) are the ones where I had a lot of fun just tinkering with various parts of the map.

There is of course an air of critical thinking you have to apply to mapping as well, but part of the fun (And your true value as a mapper) is doing weird things and knowing what to omit and what to keep, and what can be fixed / balanced. That is a skill you will only develop over time.

This of course depends on your mood, if you're depressed there's not much of a reason to try to force yourself in a good mood, but then that kinda delves into real life stuff which is outside the realm of this discussion

Funnily enough, I actually mapped a few times while depressed and it spawned some extremely fucking hard maps.

Haha, I can see that too. I've made some pretty hard maps that way as well :P

One map in particular had long stretches of STARTAN with no enemies, then suddenly a large room with hellish textures and monsters everywhere, a door shutting behind the player trapping him against an unwinnable battle.

:p

I made a similar thread to this one a few months ago after hearing some comments on one of my own work. lately, I've been thinking that I just start with a layout, detail it, then add the things into it. if you have any ideas for anything then go for it.

one thing I've been doing in mapping lately is to map for Doom instead of Doom II. it's easier on me since there are less resources/things to choose from and you can make a decent techbase pretty easily.

if you want a real beginner tip though, then I'll say to start out small. make something easy, comfortable, or at least something you can play through without difficulty. others will probably think it's too easy (obviously) so work on from there but make sure you can still beat the map yourself.

Gez said:

Example: Inversely, an office lobby -- with big industrial pipes behind the receptionist's desk! Again, doesn't make sense and looks bad.

I dunno man, Digbeth is full of places like that. Plus it's a good design if you want to create a dirty cyberpunk dystopian map or something.

I'm still learning as a mapper myself. I can create playable decent maps but as people have said in the past, they need a bit more height variation and they need to be less square. So at the moment I'm just trying to round things off a bit and create more windy passage ways. No-one has said anything bad about my detailing much though, I guess I'm ok at making things look like things.

Oh and path finding is something to think about, if you want a run and gun map then make it somewhat easy to navigate, don't tax the player too much with fake doors and passage ways..and if you do, mark them off so it can be billed as detail or something. Making the player think about where to go and what to do is one thing, but stressing them out over it is another.

But if you wanna make a puzzle map...then yeah make it cryptic.

But still, pretty much what everyone else has said really. Just do your best and work on it. I suppose the word to go for is variety, try to mix things up a little too.

If you'd be interested, you can email me your WAD files and I'll test them and give you positive constructive criticism. I'm new to mapping as well and wouldn't mind having somebody on here to swap maps with. Hell, we could probably give eachother great ideas through our designs and both benefit from it.